Why political systems based on atheism kill several times more citizens

plumjam said:
my whole point is about systems that are intentionally atheist. Communism demonstrably was. Marx described religion as the opium of the masses, and thus in order for progress to be made this self-delusional obstacle (as he saw it) had to be removed. So atheism was a central tenet of communism.
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The Russian Orthodox church prior to the revolution in Russia was very influencial in government and extremely oppressive. The Russian people were excessively taxed and forced to do the church's bidding on construction and donating land etc. The reason communism embrassed atheism was due to religious oppression under a totalitarian government. Everyone seems to forget that one. Communism as Marx envisioned it is not evil--Stalin made it evil--it just doesn't work well economically. Marx's goal was to separate church and state...which was not the case prior to the revolution.

glenn
 
joobz said:
hey thanks!
Hilter (a christian) is in the top three. I think that helps show the point I was making. It's the person not the religion (or lack there of)
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Aren't some Jews taught at a very early age that Hitler was a Christian. Were you brought up Jewish.
 
plumjam said:
mid-range estimates for communism's murder of its own citizens, total 110 million during the 20th Century

working out at almost exactly one September 11th every day for a hundred years

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM
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hmm, so real argument is a numbers game?
religion doesn't prevent murder, it just murders less?
so, it relatively moral.

Yup, I'm convinced.:rolleyes:

realize, so far, you've been arguing the justification, not the numbers.
 
DOC said:
Aren't some Jews taught at a very early age that Hitler was a Christian. Were you brought up Jewish.
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would it matter?

and of course jews would be taught that. He was. Duh.
 
plumjam said:
my whole point is about systems that are intentionally atheist. Communism demonstrably was. Marx described religion as the opium of the masses, and thus in order for progress to be made this self-delusional obstacle (as he saw it) had to be removed. So atheism was a central tenet of communism.
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"I am not a Marxist"

Do you know who said that? It was Karl marx himself.

You need to educate yourself a bit more about the real roots of communism. Marx was not a revolutionary. He was an economist. He saw religion as a symptom of society's suffering, not its cause. He expected that when the conditions causing the need for religion were removed then religion would simply be abandoned. Forcibly removing religion would do nothing to address the problems that Marx saw in 19th century western societies. Whether he was right or wrong, the fact remains that he did not call for the abolition of religion. As for the quasi-religious states that called themselves "Communist" they declared atheism as the official state policy for the same reason the Bible says "You shall have no other gods before me".
 
DOC said:
Originally Posted by plumjam
sure, and they were all small beer compared to what happened with communism






TYRANT DEATHS
Mao 40Million
Hitler 34M
Stalin 20M


http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm

the above web page uses this for stats:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
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http://en.mcfly.org/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll

Take a look at this link. You will see how America's Christian forefathers' genocide against Native Americans killed quite a few. And slavery, promoted and justified by Christians also lead to enormous loss of life. If you and plumjam can read this and still think Christians can claim some sort of moral high ground, then this thread needs to move to AAH.

glenn
 
joobz said:
would it matter?

and of course jews would be taught that. He was. Duh.
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I understand that some Jews are taught at a very early age that Torquemada was a Christian. Some are even taught that Mel Brooks is a Jew.
 
JoeEllison said:
I think you need to have a few less drinks... :D

Plus, I'm not sure that it is at all disingenuous to argue from the Bible. Heck, they don't mind doing it, so why should we? :cool:
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Hey! i've only been sipping a little Woodford reserve. :)
I know we can find bible verse that supports your point, the issue is that mainstream christian faith hasn't really supported such a view.

I don't see a reason to attack all faithful as though they are all DOCs. I'd rather support the religous people who denounce such idiocy instead of alienating them. We must remember that there are lurkers here, who could feel isolated by misdirected animosity.

But, of course, you are free to tell me to go stuff it.
 
Just to point out, in line with what Foster Zygote said above, opiates in the time of Marx were widely used and considered harmless relievers of suffering. Marx was saying that the masses had turned to one relief, religion, because of their dire condition. His belief that his economic theories would present a true alleviation of the malady had nothing at all to do with the belief in gods.
Belief in gods and "religion" can also be considered very different.

Oh, and is Cuba no longer communist? I think that Castro lifted religious restrictions years ago.
 
joobz said:
hmm, so real argument is a numbers game?
religion doesn't prevent murder, it just murders less?
so, it relatively moral.

Yup, I'm convinced.:rolleyes:

realize, so far, you've been arguing the justification, not the numbers.
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And any argument involving the numbers needs to take into account the rapid changes in both population density a lethal technology that have occurred in the last century or so. Of course plumjam has already demonstrated his unwillingness to take such functions into account in his equations.
 
joobz said:
Hey! i've only been sipping a little Woodford reserve. :)
I know we can find bible verse that supports your point, the issue is that mainstream christian faith hasn't really supported such a view.

I don't see a reason to attack all faithful as though they are all DOCs. I'd rather support the religous people who denounce such idiocy instead of alienating them. We must remember that there are lurkers here, who could feel isolated by misdirected animosity.

But, of course, you are free to tell me to go stuff it.
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Actually, I am hardly free to tell you anything of the sort... there ARE rules. :cool:

I feel no need to protect the faithful from the truth of their own religion. The Bible absolutely justifies rape, murder, and genocide. I cannot in good conscience pretend otherwise. If in refuting the worst Christians, I cause the best Christians to feel some discomfort, I can only console myself with the thought that some amongst those "best Christians" can learn from that discomfort.
 
joobz said:
Yeah, I was taught those in my Jew/not a jew 101 class.
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What's Brian Griffin's girlfriends name, the one played by Drew Barrymore?

Brian's GF: How do I know if I'm Jewish?

Brian: Are you Jewish?

Brian's GF: No.

Brian: Well there you go.
 
Aren't some Jews taught at a very early age that Hitler was a Christian. Were you brought up Jewish.


JoeEllison said:
Your post comes off as antisemitic... you may want to rephrase your posts.
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Not really, Christ was brought up Jewish.
 
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