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Why political systems based on atheism kill several times more citizens

Given quotes from Mein Kampf showing he believed not only in God but that he was doing God's work, and that his actions followed his writings in that book, yes, the evidence shows he believed in God. Ergo, Hitler was not an atheist.

Try again.

lol.. what a pile of pants

any occurences you can tell me of when Hitler went to Church? (apart from the funerals of his murderous lackeys blown up by the resistance) any evidence you can give me of Hitler having a close relationship with a priest?
As I have already show you, Hitler was an opportunistic liar... he was interested in opera, particularly Wagner, architechture (on a grand scale), military technology, and painting... from Albert Speers memoirs of his association with Hitler between 1933 and 1945 Hitler never exhibited any genuine interest in religion
 
Hi Elentar, thanks a lot for your post, and let me thank you very much. There aren't many people on this forum with your open-mindedness or intelligence, and I learnt quite a bit from your post :)

I definitely can see that communism and nazism occupied the same kind of dogmatic slots as previous religion. But to me, no religion, even the most fanatical ones wreaked such havoc as these forms of atheism. People might argue that this was cos they were "new" and kind of "untested" forms of political atheism... but given a bit more time and we come to Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge which was of all these philosophies the one with least room for God, and within 6 years it reduced the population of its own country by a third, with no war.. just crazy atheist ideology... well, i have written enough


And yet, you still missed the main point. Totalitarian armies in this century had modern weapons. The difference, in terms of destructive power, can be seen in the sudden leap in destructive power near the end of the 19th century, first in the American civil war (with gattling guns and artillery) and then in the first world war, which had a far greater body count than the second. Consider what would have happened if the Crusaders had had such weapons. Imagine a Church whose ministers shouted "Kill them all! God will know his own!", armed with weapons of mass destruction.

Would there be anyone left?

This is a discussion of intent, not ability.

Despite this, the 20th century, with all its wars and purges and genocides, was still the most peaceably century in human history. The average person was far less likely to die of violence in our last century than in any other century in human history. And yes, this includes the ravages of Naziism and Communism, in the most atheistic century in human history. With all of the weapons of the modern world at their command, they were still outdone by our good Christian ancestors.

And as I have pointed out, Communism and Naziism were dogmas--post-Christian religions. Atheism is not a dogma. Hitler exploited Christian prejudice where it was convenient, made deals with the Catholic Church, and his brownshirts had the insignia "Gott mitt uns!" (God is with us!) on their belt buckles. Stalin was a seminary student who recognized the Church as a rival ideology to Communism and opposed it on these grounds. Both the Reich and the Soviet Union were the largest wholesale distributors of occult, pseudo-scientific/religious bunk in the world--their attempt to shore up their authority with miracles. The CIA's laughable excursions into remote viewing and psychic powers was the result of some horribly gullible spooks taking Soviet propaganda at face value.

The last fifty years of the twentieth century were even more peaceable, unprecedented in human history. At about the middle of this period Time Magazine asked "Is God Dead?" Now we are at war again, with Christians fighting Muslims, advised by a group of neo-cons guided by the Hegelian idea of Historical Inevitability (the same pseudo-religious idea that guided Marxist theory.)

It's all religion, all dogma, all woo-woo, and all crap. I don't really care whether your God is Jesus, Allah, Absolute Spirit, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, L. Ron and the Thetans, or the Reich. If you want to find an example of an atheist society, find one that isn't twisted by some half-baked religious cult of personality. Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and Cambodia under Pol Pot are in no way relevant. There is nothing whatsoever in atheism which implies membership in any of these cults!
 
i think any fair minded person with a full knowledge of the consequences of Hitlers intentional acts towards his fellow man would be a bit hard stretched to argue he was a sincere Christian, wouldn't you?

Nice avoiding the question. :rolleyes:

Was Arnaud Amalric ("Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius!") a "sincere Christian" at the Seige of Béziers ?

Was Tomas de Torquemada a "sincere Christian" when his inquisition was torturing and killing Jews and Muslims in Spain?

Were the judges at the Salem Witch Trial "sincere Christians" when they let their superstitions murder 20 people?

I could go on this all night.
 
on the contrary, facts and eyewitness testimony shows unequivocally that Hitler was much more interested in Social Darwinism
 
oh come on, so you are trying to equate Hitler with Islamist fundamentalist suicide bombers?
How does that enlighten the debate in any way?
Hitler never really believed in God or the afterlife, which is why he was so keen to impress his own ego on the world, by more or less conquering it, and rebuiliding Berlin with massive buildings never before or since imagined in history, which he would go to in between his war conferences (and show more enthusiasm for the models than the war, even early on)
If he believed in the afterlife why did he never talk about it?
Yes, what true believer would be so concerned with their own worldly lives that they would build huge buildings and invest massive amounts of money in gold trimmings, and do it in the middle of a European capital city?

Anyone...anyone...
Bueller...?
 
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No, atheism is the lack of belief in god.
Not by any majority definition.
I advise you abandon this tack on these boards. We've seen it many many times before and are well equipped to gently and positively show you the error of such a statement.
*sigh*
Given that "atheist" is an intersubjectively defined term, then you'll have a very hard time of maintaining that. Personally, speaking as an atheist, I think that is self-serving crap as a definition. I'm quite happy with the normal and widely accepted definition of "atheist" as someone who says there are no gods.

BTW, atheism was aggressively promoted overtly as such and by the governments in the USSR (most especially the early USSR) and in Red China (most especially during the Cultural Revolution).

The entire problem with your argument is that it's a form of No True Scotsman fallacy.

It would be far better and far more honest to admit that occasionally atheism has been linked with intolerance and persecution of others, but that atheism is not inextricably linked with suchlike, so that atheism does not necessarily mean intolerance and persecution of others.

This kind of havering only makes us atheists look bad and rather hypocritical, IMHO.
 
lol.. what a pile of pants

any occurences you can tell me of when Hitler went to Church? (apart from the funerals of his murderous lackeys blown up by the resistance) any evidence you can give me of Hitler having a close relationship with a priest?
As I have already show you, Hitler was an opportunistic liar... he was interested in opera, particularly Wagner, architechture (on a grand scale), military technology, and painting... from Albert Speers memoirs of his association with Hitler between 1933 and 1945 Hitler never exhibited any genuine interest in religion

We've shown repeated writings from hitler believing in God, whether he espoused to one religion or the other doesn't matter. He was not an atheist.
 
on the contrary, facts and eyewitness testimony shows unequivocally that Hitler was much more interested in Social Darwinism

Your point? Many Conservatives/Republicans I know seem to adhere to social darwinism and are very Christian.
 
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Your point? Many Conservatives/Republicans I know seem to adhere to social darwinism and are very Christian.

That was my immediate thought as well. American Christianity seems intimately tied into Social Darwinism, and the more fundamentalist the Christian, the more deeply tied into Social Darwinism they are. So, by THAT standard, Hitler would be as Christian as the most fundamentalist American Christian today.
 
And yet, you still missed the main point. Totalitarian armies in this century had modern weapons. The difference, in terms of destructive power, can be seen in the sudden leap in destructive power near the end of the 19th century, first in the American civil war (with gattling guns and artillery) and then in the first world war, which had a far greater body count than the second. Consider what would have happened if the Crusaders had had such weapons. Imagine a Church whose ministers shouted "Kill them all! God will know his own!", armed with weapons of mass destruction.

Would there be anyone left?

This is a discussion of intent, not ability.

Despite this, the 20th century, with all its wars and purges and genocides, was still the most peaceably century in human history. The average person was far less likely to die of violence in our last century than in any other century in human history. And yes, this includes the ravages of Naziism and Communism, in the most atheistic century in human history. With all of the weapons of the modern world at their command, they were still outdone by our good Christian ancestors.

And as I have pointed out, Communism and Naziism were dogmas--post-Christian religions. Atheism is not a dogma. Hitler exploited Christian prejudice where it was convenient, made deals with the Catholic Church, and his brownshirts had the insignia "Gott mitt uns!" (God is with us!) on their belt buckles. Stalin was a seminary student who recognized the Church as a rival ideology to Communism and opposed it on these grounds. Both the Reich and the Soviet Union were the largest wholesale distributors of occult, pseudo-scientific/religious bunk in the world--their attempt to shore up their authority with miracles. The CIA's laughable excursions into remote viewing and psychic powers was the result of some horribly gullible spooks taking Soviet propaganda at face value.

The last fifty years of the twentieth century were even more peaceable, unprecedented in human history. At about the middle of this period Time Magazine asked "Is God Dead?" Now we are at war again, with Christians fighting Muslims, advised by a group of neo-cons guided by the Hegelian idea of Historical Inevitability (the same pseudo-religious idea that guided Marxist theory.)

It's all religion, all dogma, all woo-woo, and all crap. I don't really care whether your God is Jesus, Allah, Absolute Spirit, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, L. Ron and the Thetans, or the Reich. If you want to find an example of an atheist society, find one that isn't twisted by some half-baked religious cult of personality. Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and Cambodia under Pol Pot are in no way relevant. There is nothing whatsoever in atheism which implies membership in any of these cults!

Nominated!
 
Gurdur, I agree with your criticism in general, but the OP specifically stated that the governments which adopted communism were "based on atheism". While the resulting governments may have promulgated atheism, and minimalized theists, communism is not "based on" a lack of supernatural belief, but rather the struggle of opposing classes inevitably leading to a proletarian world without class struggle. A government based on atheism would start with the premise "we have no gods", and then would run into a wall of inaction.
 
And yet, you still missed the main point. Totalitarian armies in this century had modern weapons. The difference, in terms of destructive power, can be seen in the sudden leap in destructive power near the end of the 19th century, first in the American civil war (with gattling guns and artillery) and then in the first world war, which had a far greater body count than the second. Consider what would have happened if the Crusaders had had such weapons. Imagine a Church whose ministers shouted "Kill them all! God will know his own!", armed with weapons of mass destruction.

Would there be anyone left?

This is a discussion of intent, not ability.

Despite this, the 20th century, with all its wars and purges and genocides, was still the most peaceably century in human history. The average person was far less likely to die of violence in our last century than in any other century in human history. And yes, this includes the ravages of Naziism and Communism, in the most atheistic century in human history. With all of the weapons of the modern world at their command, they were still outdone by our good Christian ancestors.

And as I have pointed out, Communism and Naziism were dogmas--post-Christian religions. Atheism is not a dogma. Hitler exploited Christian prejudice where it was convenient, made deals with the Catholic Church, and his brownshirts had the insignia "Gott mitt uns!" (God is with us!) on their belt buckles. Stalin was a seminary student who recognized the Church as a rival ideology to Communism and opposed it on these grounds. Both the Reich and the Soviet Union were the largest wholesale distributors of occult, pseudo-scientific/religious bunk in the world--their attempt to shore up their authority with miracles. The CIA's laughable excursions into remote viewing and psychic powers was the result of some horribly gullible spooks taking Soviet propaganda at face value.

The last fifty years of the twentieth century were even more peaceable, unprecedented in human history. At about the middle of this period Time Magazine asked "Is God Dead?" Now we are at war again, with Christians fighting Muslims, advised by a group of neo-cons guided by the Hegelian idea of Historical Inevitability (the same pseudo-religious idea that guided Marxist theory.)

It's all religion, all dogma, all woo-woo, and all crap. I don't really care whether your God is Jesus, Allah, Absolute Spirit, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, L. Ron and the Thetans, or the Reich. If you want to find an example of an atheist society, find one that isn't twisted by some half-baked religious cult of personality. Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and Cambodia under Pol Pot are in no way relevant. There is nothing whatsoever in atheism which implies membership in any of these cults!


Well, Elentar, I must honestly say I feel quite honoured that you answer me, and in full. What I usually get are pretty much knee jerk responses by religious novices of Richard Dawkins and the Great Randi who seem like they'll never realise that that's what they are.
The part about the average person being less likely to die in the 20th century than previously.. well, who knows really? it just seems to me that modern weapons and technology have aided mal intent to be transferred into mass killing like never before, like the Armenian massacre, the First World War, the Second World War, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Holocaust, Korea, Vietnam, Stalins purges, the gulags, Maos cultural revolution, Maos famines, Pol Pots return to year Zero, Iran Iraq war killing one million, sanctions on Iraq killing one million...etc... I would say that maybe a very conservative estimate of all those killed in only these instances (obviously i've missed many in the 20th C) would be... hmm... 149 million?
 
not sure i have the slightest idea what you are on about


You say no "genuine Christian" would hate Jews as Hitler did.
St. John Chrysotom hated Jews as Hitler did. When you compare their two quotes it might as well be the same person speaking. They could almost be twins separated at birth. Chrysotom is Hitler with a halo!
So, is St. John Chrysotom, SAINT John remember, a "genuine Christian"?
If he is, then Hitler, in hating Jews, is behaving exactly like a "genuine Christian".
 
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