Why political systems based on atheism kill several times more citizens

[plumjam]

It is easy for "Christians" to "prove" their points. All they have to do is lie a whole bunch. Since they apparently consider themselves suitable representatives... that means Jesus must have been a complete liar as well.

Doesn't bother me a bit... I wonder how they feel about how they reflect on the Big Jee?

Joe, i've read quite a lot of your replies to my posts, initially i answered them, even though some of them i didn't quite understand, just out of politeness... you have sent me abusive posts even when i have been only polite.. i must say, this last post i have tried to understand again, but it's a mystery.. maybe my brain is too small... maybe you can try harder for me in future, cos i think i'm not as bright as you

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

come off it, Hitler was never a genuine Christian, he had little real interest in religion. If he had been a genuine Christian he would have loved his fellow man as himself, regardless of jew, christian, gypsy or anything else

I take it Hitler didn't eat sugar on his porridge either, huh?

Just who or what is a "genuine Christian" anyway? Who get's to make that determination?

You? The same way you get to determine what is and what isn't proper behavior for atheists?

 

[Foster Zygote]

come off it, Hitler was never a genuine Christian, he had little real interest in religion. If he had been a genuine Christian he would have loved his fellow man as himself, regardless of jew, christian, gypsy or anything else

No true Scotsman.

 

[bpesta22]

I think people can be classified into 4 groups:

killers who are theists
people who kill for theism
killers who are atheist
people who kill for atheism.

I gots no data but I suspect 4 is way under-represented relative to 2, even factoring in that most people are theists.

 

[plumjam]

Really? Do you think that the actions of those who strap bombs to themselves and go to public places crowded with women and children with the purpose of killing them demonstrates a lack of true belief in God and his judgment?

Hitler thought that he was doing God's will. He stated as much. He believed himself to be the instrument of God. Just like those kids you see in videos holding Kalashnikovs. Just like groups who right now think that God's plan involves a racial holy war in which all the "impure" people that God hates will be killed by the ones he really loves.

oh come on, so you are trying to equate Hitler with Islamist fundamentalist suicide bombers?
How does that enlighten the debate in any way?
Hitler never really believed in God or the afterlife, which is why he was so keen to impress his own ego on the world, by more or less conquering it, and rebuiliding Berlin with massive buildings never before or since imagined in history, which he would go to in between his war conferences (and show more enthusiasm for the models than the war, even early on)
If he believed in the afterlife why did he never talk about it?

 

[plumjam]

I take it Hitler didn't eat sugar on his porridge either, huh?

Just who or what is a "genuine Christian" anyway? Who get's to make that determination?

You? The same way you get to determine what is and what isn't proper behavior for atheists?

i think any fair minded person with a full knowledge of the consequences of Hitlers intentional acts towards his fellow man would be a bit hard stretched to argue he was a sincere Christian, wouldn't you?

 

[Ducky]

i think any fair minded person with a full knowledge of the consequences of Hitlers intentional acts towards his fellow man would be a bit hard stretched to argue he was a sincere Christian, wouldn't you?

Do you not understand what a "No True Scotsman" fallacy is?


PS. He doesn't have to be a christian in any sense you want him to be. He simply was not an atheist and that has been proven with his own writings in this thread.

 

[plumjam]

Do you not understand what a "No True Scotsman" fallacy is?

No I don't, so please enlighten me.

I do remember my beloved P.G. Wodehouse writing that "it's still quite rare that anyone mistakes a Scotsman for a ray of sunshine" (or words to that effect)

 

[Ducky]

oh come on, so you are trying to equate Hitler with Islamist fundamentalist suicide bombers?
How does that enlighten the debate in any way?
Hitler never really believed in God or the afterlife, which is why he was so keen to impress his own ego on the world, by more or less conquering it, and rebuiliding Berlin with massive buildings never before or since imagined in history, which he would go to in between his war conferences (and show more enthusiasm for the models than the war, even early on)
If he believed in the afterlife why did he never talk about it?

You're trying to nitpick at specifics of a belief in God to show he was an atheist?

Every question is moot in this post of yours: We've shown he believed in God. Ergo, he is not an atheist.

 

[Ducky]

No I don't, so please enlighten me.

I do remember my beloved P.G. Wodehouse writing that "it's still quite rare that anyone mistakes a Scotsman for a ray of sunshine" (or words to that effect)

Foster Zygote was kind enough to provide a link for you to understand that logical fallacy in post #83. Pay attention.

Go read up, and please avoid using logically fallacious arguments.

 

[blobru]

come off it, Hitler was never a genuine Christian, he had little real interest in religion. If he had been a genuine Christian he would have loved his fellow man as himself, regardless of jew, christian, gypsy or anything else

Was St. John Chrysotom a genuine Christian? He is, after all, a saint. And his and Hitler's "love" for their fellow man, when Jewish, was identical.

 

[plumjam]

You're trying to nitpick at specifics of a belief in God to show he was an atheist?

Every question is moot in this post of yours: We've shown he believed in God. Ergo, he is not an atheist.

so you take Hitler at his word then?

if you look at history there are countless speeches and treaties in which he was blatantly lying for expediency and to further his world domination strategy. If you want it spelt out, he signed a treaty with Chamberlain saying he wouldn't invade Poland, he signed a pact with Stalin not to go to war with him, he put polish prisoners from german prisons into stolen polish army uniforms and had them shot on the german side of the polish border, in order to be able to claim that poland had "started to invade germany"... all because he was seeking a pretext to go to war.... and you seem to believe whatever this guy says... why would that be?

 

[plumjam]

Was St. John Chrysotom a genuine Christian? He is, after all, a saint. And his and Hitler's "love" for their fellow man, when Jewish, was identical.

not sure i have the slightest idea what you are on about

 

[Foster Zygote]

i think any fair minded person with a full knowledge of the consequences of Hitlers intentional acts towards his fellow man would be a bit hard stretched to argue he was a sincere Christian, wouldn't you?

No. As has been explained to you, one can do horrible things to other people and believe those actions to be in the service of the glory of one's god. Teenagers can commit suicide bombings in civilian markets in the belief that God will reward them. Hitler committed genocide in the belief that he was serving God.

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people.

- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant

We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

- Adolf Hitler, Speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933

 

[Ducky]

so you take Hitler at his word then?

if you look at history there are countless speeches and treaties in which he was blatantly lying for expediency and to further his world domination strategy. If you want it spelt out, he signed a treaty with Chamberlain saying he wouldn't invade Poland, he signed a pact with Stalin not to go to war with him, he put polish prisoners from german prisons into stolen polish army uniforms and had them shot on the german side of the polish border, in order to be able to claim that poland had "started to invade germany"... all because he was seeking a pretext to go to war.... and you seem to believe whatever this guy says... why would that be?

Given quotes from Mein Kampf showing he believed not only in God but that he was doing God's work, and that his actions followed his writings in that book, yes, the evidence shows he believed in God. Ergo, Hitler was not an atheist.

Try again.

 

[JoeEllison]

My understanding is that Martin Luther was also a raging anti-semite, just like Hitler. Christianity and the Nazi Party seem a pretty good match, based on history and evidence.

If you are a dishonest Christian, on the other hand, you have to lie about history to pretend that all Christians are good, and anyone who was evil was not a Christian. Spitting in the face of reality might make you a lot of things, but "honest" is certainly not one of them.

 

[Foster Zygote]

so you take Hitler at his word then?

if you look at history there are countless speeches and treaties in which he was blatantly lying for expediency and to further his world domination strategy. If you want it spelt out, he signed a treaty with Chamberlain saying he wouldn't invade Poland, he signed a pact with Stalin not to go to war with him, he put polish prisoners from german prisons into stolen polish army uniforms and had them shot on the german side of the polish border, in order to be able to claim that poland had "started to invade germany"... all because he was seeking a pretext to go to war.... and you seem to believe whatever this guy says... why would that be?

No true Scotsman would lie.

 

[T'ai Chi]

There's a problem when a group of people declare things as superstition that must be destroyed; they try and destroy it.

 

[JoeEllison]

so you take Hitler at his word then?

if you look at history there are countless speeches and treaties in which he was blatantly lying for expediency and to further his world domination strategy.

Somebody help me, the irony is killing me!!!!!!!

 

[Ducky]

not sure i have the slightest idea what you are on about

The irony of this statement after attempting to define a true christian is surely lost on you.