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Why political systems based on atheism kill several times more citizens

the Nazis did try to use the population's belief in God to their own ends. Not a single senior Nazi was a sincere believer in God. If any of you can furnish me with a quote from Hitler, Goebbels, Goering, Himmler, Bormann, Speer, Heydrich or any of the rest of them which shows anything other than a possibly useful use of God in some political speech, then I'd be intrigued

If you can show that Nazi was atheist, I'd be intrigued. His personal book, Mein Kampf, certainly doesn't support your assertion. If the senior Nazi's were all atheist, that still doesn't diminish the fact that it was not "atheist" philosophy or such that caused the damage. It was belief in god and country that motivated the masses of the German armies to do the horrors that they did.

Also, the hatred of the Jewish people stems from Christianity.
 
The problem with Communism, Naziism, and Theocracy is a top-down attempt at creating a preconceived utopia which is inevitably at odds with the organically evolved social, political, and economic order. Recent excursions into this have been far more devastating simply because of advances in technology, particularly in the technologies of information exchange and weaponry. The theocracies of the past did not lack the intent, simply the means, to wreak havoc on this scale.

To see that that intent still exists within the theocratically inclined, read the ravings of Dominionist Christians or Islamicists. And while even Joseph Stalin understood that nuclear weapons could never be used (and was terrified of them), you can rest assured that if Mohammed had had the bomb, we would not be having this conversation. Why preserve this world, when God, or Allah, is just going to make you another?

What you must understand is that Communism and Naziism occupied the same social and ideological niche as religion--they were dogmas. Communism was called The God that Failed, where children were told as late as the eighties that "Lenin is the friend of all little children." Note the present tense; Lenin was stuffed and mounted in Red Square, and was not in a condition to by anyone's friend--certainly not by the standards of dialectical materialism. Hitler established The Church of the Reich, open only to party members, with his picture above and a copy of Mein Kampf upon the altar.

As the Church of Scientology (and Heaven's Gate, etc) demonstrate, you don't have to mention God to create a religion. The real danger, common to both religion and recent political ideologies, is dogma, an unreasoning certainty that you are right despite all obstacles, evidence, and costs to others, and that you can impose by sheer force a new and better order. Atheism, however, is not a dogma, nor even a belief, but a rejection of a particular dogma. Huxley got it completely wrong here.

Hi Elentar, thanks a lot for your post, and let me thank you very much. There aren't many people on this forum with your open-mindedness or intelligence, and I learnt quite a bit from your post :)

I definitely can see that communism and nazism occupied the same kind of dogmatic slots as previous religion. But to me, no religion, even the most fanatical ones wreaked such havoc as these forms of atheism. People might argue that this was cos they were "new" and kind of "untested" forms of political atheism... but given a bit more time and we come to Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge which was of all these philosophies the one with least room for God, and within 6 years it reduced the population of its own country by a third, with no war.. just crazy atheist ideology... well, i have written enough
 
I'm not being deliberately facetious, my friend, but if you do believe in morality, with an atheistic background what would you base that belief on?

I have a vested interest in people being moral as society would be very hard to live with if all people were immoral, it might even mean the demise of society and the human race. There is no need for a belief in any gods in order to realize that morality and ethics are needed for society to flourish.
 
Hitler was a classic opportunist (liar for whatever he thought would give him power), on many occasions he broke his word by breaking political treaties he had made with various heads of state, and then made political speeches reaffirming his sincerity in those treaties... the fact that you would take Hitler at his word (especially when talking of religious themes, in which he never in his life exhibited a genuine interest, is pretty surprising)

See? I knew Hitler wasn't a true Scotsman.
 
If you can show that Nazi was atheist, I'd be intrigued. His personal book, Mein Kampf, certainly doesn't support your assertion. If the senior Nazi's were all atheist, that still doesn't diminish the fact that it was not "atheist" philosophy or such that caused the damage. It was belief in god and country that motivated the masses of the German armies to do the horrors that they did.

Also, the hatred of the Jewish people stems from Christianity.

well, aside of all historical and sociological niceties or arguments, let me put an argument to you...
do you believe that those making the decisions in the Nazi government believed in a God, in a judgment of their behaviour after this life, in possible punishment or reward for their actions ?... its pretty obvious to me, at least, that their actions show that they didn't at all
 
Hitler was a classic opportunist (liar for whatever he thought would give him power), on many occasions he broke his word by breaking political treaties he had made with various heads of state, and then made political speeches reaffirming his sincerity in those treaties... the fact that you would take Hitler at his word (especially when talking of religious themes, in which he never in his life exhibited a genuine interest, is pretty surprising)

I see no inconsistency between the hatred for Jews espoused in the previous quote and Hitler's Christianity; neither apparently would this founding Church father:
The Jews are the most worthless of all men. They are lecherous, greedy, rapacious. They are perfidious murderers of Christ . . .The Jews are the odious assassins of Christ and for killing God there is no expiation possible, no indulgence or pardon. Christian may never cease vengeance, and the Jews must live in servitude forever. God always hated the Jews. It is incumbent upon all Christians to hate the Jews. -- St. John Chrysotom
 
well, aside of all historical and sociological niceties or arguments, let me put an argument to you...

Yes, let's ignore the historical facts that are stacked against you.

do you believe that those making the decisions in the Nazi government believed in a God, in a judgment of their behaviour after this life, in possible punishment or reward for their actions ?... its pretty obvious to me, at least, that their actions show that they didn't at all

It's obvious to me that they did. Those people believed they were their god's elite people and that those they killed were enemies of that god. They did what they did because it would earn them places at the hand of their god when they die.
 
well, aside of all historical and sociological niceties or arguments, let me put an argument to you...
do you believe that those making the decisions in the Nazi government believed in a God, in a judgment of their behaviour after this life, in possible punishment or reward for their actions ?... its pretty obvious to me, at least, that their actions show that they didn't at all
Nazis were not the first (nor will they be the last) Christians who feel it is righteous to kill nonbelievers. Ann Coulter is exhibit A.
 
I have a vested interest in people being moral as society would be very hard to live with if all people were immoral, it might even mean the demise of society and the human race. There is no need for a belief in any gods in order to realize that morality and ethics are needed for society to flourish.

I do believe you, but lets just say, as a thought experiment, that you were granted the power to live eternally and to have whatever power you wanted over other beings (humans included), would you act in the same moral way for ever?... bit of a teaser, i know ;)
 
but given a bit more time and we come to Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge which was of all these philosophies the one with least room for God, and within 6 years it reduced the population of its own country by a third, with no war.. just crazy atheist ideology... well, i have written enough
Khmer Rouge was probably the closest to an insane religious cult of all the other state ideologies you've mentioned. Pol Pot was like Jim Jones and Vernon Wayne Howell rolled into one and in complete charge of an entire country. Like Stalin, Pol Pot basically declared himself a god and used the guise of atheism to stamp out competing religions.

Let me ask you this: If Communism is so atheistic then why did Stalin murder so many atheist intellectuals during his paranoid purges?
 
I do not recognize you as the final arbiter of what a Christian is. There are many many kinds of Christians with widely different moral beliefs. What if another Christian says YOU are not really a Christian because they disagree with the way you worship God? Like many Christians, Hitler professed Christianity and he applied selected Christian beliefs in his life. You (and all Christians) do the same.

so let's get this straight, you are seriously arguing that Hitler was a genuine Christian?
 
It is easy for "Christians" to "prove" their points. All they have to do is lie a whole bunch. Since they apparently consider themselves suitable representatives... that means Jesus must have been a complete liar as well.

Doesn't bother me a bit... I wonder how they feel about how they reflect on the Big Jee?
 
I do believe you, but lets just say, as a thought experiment, that you were granted the power to live eternally and to have whatever power you wanted over other beings (humans included), would you act in the same moral way for ever?... bit of a teaser, i know ;)
Yes. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "me". It would be some power-corrupted entity that used to be "me".

By the way. The God of Christ (as he is portrayed in the Bible) lives outside any moral code. He does whatever He likes, including murder and torture.
 
I see no inconsistency between the hatred for Jews espoused in the previous quote and Hitler's Christianity; neither apparently would this founding Church father:

come off it, Hitler was never a genuine Christian, he had little real interest in religion. If he had been a genuine Christian he would have loved his fellow man as himself, regardless of jew, christian, gypsy or anything else
 
well, aside of all historical and sociological niceties or arguments, let me put an argument to you...
do you believe that those making the decisions in the Nazi government believed in a God, in a judgment of their behaviour after this life, in possible punishment or reward for their actions ?... its pretty obvious to me, at least, that their actions show that they didn't at all

Really? Do you think that the actions of those who strap bombs to themselves and go to public places crowded with women and children with the purpose of killing them demonstrates a lack of true belief in God and his judgment?

Hitler thought that he was doing God's will. He stated as much. He believed himself to be the instrument of God. Just like those kids you see in videos holding Kalashnikovs. Just like groups who right now think that God's plan involves a racial holy war in which all the "impure" people that God hates will be killed by the ones he really loves.
 
come off it, Hitler was never a genuine Christian, he had little real interest in religion. If he had been a genuine Christian he would have loved his fellow man as himself, regardless of jew, christian, gypsy or anything else
Logical fallacy, ten yard penalty, 4rd down.


Maybe you should punt...
 
Let me ask you this: If Communism is so atheistic then why did Stalin murder so many atheist intellectuals during his paranoid purges?


Indeed, surely Joe should have given a pass on fellow atheist Leon Trotsky, right?

Oh wait... he didn't. One of his cronies planted an ice ax in his head at his Mexico City home.

Maybe, just maybe, "atheism" had nothing to do with USSR's atrocities but ideology?
 
so let's get this straight, you are seriously arguing that Hitler was a genuine Christian?
I am arguing that you do not have the say-so as to who is a "genuine Christian". As I understand it, you can do pretty much anything you like and be a Christian as long as you accept Jesus Christ. I believe I can point you to bible verses that say exactly this.

If you believe otherwise, then there are some who will claim, with Biblical justification, that you are not a "genuine Christian".
 

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