Why political systems based on atheism kill several times more citizens

[Puppycow]

Isn't it obvious that the Nazi genocide of the Jews was based on religious hatred? Hitler himself said as much, something about (and I paraphrase because I don't care to waste time looking up the exact quote) how Jesus cast out the snakes from the temple and how inspiring he found it. The anti-semitism that was used by the Nazis was also religious-based. Atheists would not have any reason to exterminate the Jews in particular.

 

[Carnegiea]

On the other hand if you had a theocratic government in a country where a large portion of the population believes people are rewarded or punished in the afterlife, they could simply "shoot them all and let God sort them out". The righteous folks would simply go to Heaven once they died, so killing them off wouldn't be a bad thing!

 

[Zep]

How does it go? Atheism is a belief the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

 

[plumjam]

No, atheism is the LACK OF BELIEF that there is a God or gods. It may seem like a subtle difference, but it is very important. Again, what is a tenet of atheism? What is their position on monarchy? What about division of wealth? Who do atheists feel should be allowed to vote?

Note: You will be expected to support your position with evidence.

As atheism is a lack of a belief in any higher or metaphysical power, then atheism will always find itself in a huge quandary... for example, if we are all atheists in this society, why should we believe in any basis to morality?
I'm not being deliberately facetious, my friend, but if you do believe in morality, with an atheistic background what would you base that belief on?

 

[I less than three logic]

Once again the church members of St. Basils in 1918 would have strongly disagreed.

Good for them. Glad they're the final authority on whether or not a country is "based on atheism".

 

[Tricky]

Once again the church members of St. Basils in 1918 would have strongly disagreed.

And they would have been wrong. Attacking a religious leader does not make one an atheist. After all, theists attack other theists all the time.

 

[blobru]

the Nazis did try to use the population's belief in God to their own ends. Not a single senior Nazi was a sincere believer in God. If any of you can furnish me with a quote from Hitler, Goebbels, Goering, Himmler, Bormann, Speer, Heydrich or any of the rest of them which shows anything other than a possibly useful use of God in some political speech, then I'd be intrigued

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

[Note, "brood of vipers" appears in Matt. 3:7 & 12:34. John 2:15 depicts Jesus driving out the money changers (adders) from the temple. The word "adders" also appears in Psalms 140:3]

Sounds like Der Fuhrer was right full to overflowing with the spirit of the Lord.

 

[plumjam]

Isn't it obvious that the Nazi genocide of the Jews was based on religious hatred? Hitler himself said as much, something about (and I paraphrase because I don't care to waste time looking up the exact quote) how Jesus cast out the snakes from the temple and how inspiring he found it. The anti-semitism that was used by the Nazis was also religious-based. Atheists would not have any reason to exterminate the Jews in particular.

In a truly theistic view of the world such a hatred of the Jews would not have been possible because every religion (as far as I know) has its own way of saying that we are all God's children. But hey, if you fancy enjoying yourself with a bit of a nice genocide what you need to do is to indulge in a bit of a non-theistic view of things.. in other words, not ALL humans are Gods children, only some of them, only those we, as humans in our ideological system that we have created of this present day, will approve of

 

[Foster Zygote]

the Nazis did try to use the population's belief in God to their own ends. Not a single senior Nazi was a sincere believer in God. If any of you can furnish me with a quote from Hitler, Goebbels, Goering, Himmler, Bormann, Speer, Heydrich or any of the rest of them which shows anything other than a possibly useful use of God in some political speech, then I'd be intrigued

I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5

I had so often sung 'Deutschland über Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.

- Adolf Hitler reflecting on World War I, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7

What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

But if out of smugness, or even cowardice, this battle is not fought to its end, then take a look at the peoples five hundred years from now. I think you will find but few images of God, unless you want to profane the Almighty.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 10

In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2

There are a lot more like this. Now I wonder what Hitler would look like in a kilt and if he'd be a true Scotsman?

 

[Zep]

As atheism is a lack of a belief in any higher or metaphysical power, then atheism will always find itself in a huge quandary... for example, if we are all atheists in this society, why should we believe in any basis to morality?
I'm not being deliberately facetious, my friend, but if you do believe in morality, with an atheistic background what would you base that belief on?

Why don't you do a little research, starting with threads on this forum? That particular topic has been done to death a number of times over, and all your questions will be answered if you just read.

Incidentally, please explain why a lack of belief in any god has any direct bearing on morals or lack thereof? Especially since the evidence strongly suggests there is none: E.g. Morally corrupt compassionless believers abound, as do morally sound compassionate atheists.

Do you understand what a "false dichotomy" logical fallacy is, and how you have just employed it?

 

[DOC]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken
How does one base a society on atheism?! You do realize that atheism is simply a state of belief and nothing more, don't you?




Originally Posted by DOC
The church members of St. Basils Cathedral in 1918 would have disagreed with you.

They would be wrong to.

"States of belief" don't kill a priest, melt down a church bell, and close down a cathedral.

http://www.moscow-taxi.com/churches/st-basils-cathedral.html

 

[I less than three logic]

As atheism is a lack of a belief in any higher or metaphysical power, then atheism will always find itself in a huge quandary... for example, if we are all atheists in this society, why should we believe in any basis to morality?
I'm not being deliberately facetious, my friend, but if you do believe in morality, with an atheistic background what would you base that belief on?

This guy's video touches this subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_EU5cKzXyI

 

[Tricky]

As atheism is a lack of a belief in any higher or metaphysical power, then atheism will always find itself in a huge quandary... for example, if we are all atheists in this society, why should we believe in any basis to morality?

I'm not being deliberately facetious, my friend, but if you do believe in morality, with an atheistic background what would you base that belief on?

Morality is, in the final sumnation, based on empathy, not religion. As an athiest, I have a firm basis for morality. It may not be the same one you claim.

Religion, over the ages, has become a popular way of enforcing morality, but since different religions have different moral precepts, it would be hard to argue that religion is the origin of morality.

The best kinds of morality, in my opinion, derive from caring about others, not from fear of God or Hell. That's blackmail, not morality.

 

[plumjam]

Sounds like Der Fuhrer was right full to overflowing with the spirit of the Lord.

Hitler was a classic opportunist (liar for whatever he thought would give him power), on many occasions he broke his word by breaking political treaties he had made with various heads of state, and then made political speeches reaffirming his sincerity in those treaties... the fact that you would take Hitler at his word (especially when talking of religious themes, in which he never in his life exhibited a genuine interest, is pretty surprising)

 

[plumjam]

Morality is, in the final sumnation, based on empathy, not religion. As an athiest, I have a firm basis for morality. It may not be the same one you claim.

Religion, over the ages, has become a popular way of enforcing morality, but since different religions have different moral precepts, it would be hard to argue that religion is the origin of morality.

The best kinds of morality, in my opinion, derive from caring about others, not from fear of God or Hell. That's blackmail, not morality.

good response, (i'm not being facetious)

i'm just wondering where your innate sense of people having value, e.g. your mother or your kids (if you have them) comes from... and could it really be argued that such a system of values would be absolutley necessary for everyone to ahdere to if there wasn't a God overseeing it all?

 

[Elentar]

The problem with Communism, Naziism, and Theocracy is a top-down attempt at creating a preconceived utopia which is inevitably at odds with the organically evolved social, political, and economic order. Recent excursions into this have been far more devastating simply because of advances in technology, particularly in the technologies of information exchange and weaponry. The theocracies of the past did not lack the intent, simply the means, to wreak havoc on this scale.

To see that that intent still exists within the theocratically inclined, read the ravings of Dominionist Christians or Islamicists. And while even Joseph Stalin understood that nuclear weapons could never be used (and was terrified of them), you can rest assured that if Mohammed had had the bomb, we would not be having this conversation. Why preserve this world, when God, or Allah, is just going to make you another?

What you must understand is that Communism and Naziism occupied the same social and ideological niche as religion--they were dogmas. Communism was called The God that Failed, where children were told as late as the eighties that "Lenin is the friend of all little children." Note the present tense; Lenin was stuffed and mounted in Red Square, and was not in a condition to by anyone's friend--certainly not by the standards of dialectical materialism. Hitler established The Church of the Reich, open only to party members, with his picture above and a copy of Mein Kampf upon the altar.

As the Church of Scientology (and Heaven's Gate, etc) demonstrate, you don't have to mention God to create a religion. The real danger, common to both religion and recent political ideologies, is dogma, an unreasoning certainty that you are right despite all obstacles, evidence, and costs to others, and that you can impose by sheer force a new and better order. Atheism, however, is not a dogma, nor even a belief, but a rejection of a particular dogma. Huxley got it completely wrong here.

 

[Tricky]

Hitler was a classic opportunist (liar for whatever he thought would give him power), on many occasions he broke his word by breaking political treaties he had made with various heads of state, and then made political speeches reaffirming his sincerity in those treaties... the fact that you would take Hitler at his word (especially when talking of religious themes, in which he never in his life exhibited a genuine interest, is pretty surprising)

I do not recognize you as the final arbiter of what a Christian is. There are many many kinds of Christians with widely different moral beliefs. What if another Christian says YOU are not really a Christian because they disagree with the way you worship God? Like many Christians, Hitler professed Christianity and he applied selected Christian beliefs in his life. You (and all Christians) do the same.

 

[Tricky]

good response, (i'm not being facetious)

i'm just wondering where your innate sense of people having value, e.g. your mother or your kids (if you have them) comes from... and could it really be argued that such a system of values would be absolutley necessary for everyone to ahdere to if there wasn't a God overseeing it all?

You mean that if I didn't fear punishment or crave reward why would I need morals?

Morals are necessary to live in a society. Any society. Religion is one way of both codifying those morals and giving some kind of enforcement, albiet supernatural. So religion helps keep people in line, but here is the catch. It only keeps religious people in line. Now if atheists were unconstrained by morals, you would expect to see a very high population of atheists in prisons. I believe that even a cursory examination will demonstrate that such is not the case. Just the opposite.

So if athiests "don't need God" and yet are, for the most part, moral, then doesn't that speak highly of their understanding of the reason for morals? Atheists are moral because of compassion, not fear or greed.

 

[Foster Zygote]

In a truly theistic view of the world such a hatred of the Jews would not have been possible because every religion (as far as I know) has its own way of saying that we are all God's children.

So you've never read the books of Joshua or Judges then?

But hey, if you fancy enjoying yourself with a bit of a nice genocide what you need to do is to indulge in a bit of a non-theistic view of things.. in other words, not ALL humans are Gods children, only some of them, only those we, as humans in our ideological system that we have created of this present day, will approve of

So... under atheism, only those who are regarded by atheists as God's children will be protected??? You're kidding, right? Did you really just state that? If you are trying to assert that atheists lack any capacity for equality and compassion then I have a product recommendation for you.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

In a truly theistic view of the world such a hatred of the Jews would not have been possible because every religion (as far as I know) has its own way of saying that we are all God's children.

"No True Scotsman" anyone?

Of course, this totally ignores history and known theology. The holy books of the Abrahamic faiths have pretty specific commands from "God" as to what happens to people who don't worship as Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah commands. (i.e. Death) There was no "we are all God's children" in the Crusades, the Inquisition, or the Witch Hunts. Just "true theism" at work.