Culture with atheism as center?

[plumjam]

[

Oddly enough, Cambodia did not practice "standard" communism, and actually incorporated several elements of Buddhism into their ideology. Pol Pot himself was originally a Buddhist novice. It is true that there was great oppression of other religions, but both Soviet Russia and Cambodia did support some form of state religion.

He certainly ordered the murder of plenty of Buddhist monks. The fact that he was a novice himself has little meaning, as most males in south east asia live for a time as a buddhist novice, as a kind of rite of passage. It has about as much relevance as the fact that Stalin trained in a seminary to be a priest.

I disagree. The oppression in all three regimes currently under discussion is strictly internally directed, and was for the most part anti-intellectualist rather than anti-religious. The expansionism and forced conversion practices of the theistic states have been far more disastrous to humanity in general, leading to acts of genocide, imperialism, and multi-generational feuding. I am not suggesting that communist states are a better form of government (heck no!), but that your comment of "problematical" is not founded in history once you look at the larger picture.

the persecution of intellectuals certainly took place, but it really has nothing to do with the current discussion. Certainly, I would never argue that theistic states have a clean record... I would never argue that ANY states have a clean record. It's a consequence of the centralisation of power, which creates a state, that abuses stemming from that centre have more effect.

It's my contention that we have hundreds of examples in history of theistic states, and we have, in comparison, only a handful of examples of atheistic states... and it just so happens that those atheistic states are the ones that have perpetrated the most outrageous atrocities against their own citizens in known human history, and by quite an impressive degree.
this state of affairs surely requires some kind of explanation.

 

[Correa Neto]

you mention 5 examples.

My 2 examples - the USSR under Stalin and China under Mao - these periods, totalling only 25 years and 27 years respectively, in only 2 nations, far outnumber your 5 examples in the number of people killed for ideological/religious
reasons, including all the people killed in all religious wars in known human history.

Five examples?
In case you haven't noticed, I wrote "Religious warS". This includes, besides the Crusades, all the Protestants X Catholics bloodsheds, many of the killings and clashes that happened during the India/Pakistan divide, pogroms, just to name a few of the killings "in the name of god".

A bit more than five, I would say...

Oh, yes, this also includes the "Lets kill all those who worship Baal, in the name of our Lord!" This is a very high moral standard, BTW...

And regarding the numbers... You seem to be forgetting two things:

1. There were less people around say, back in the XV Century, than in the XX Century;
2. The technology available say, back in the XV Century, was much more primitive than XX Century technology.

 

[CapelDodger]

really? if organised communism has nothing to do with atheism why did organised communism persecute religion in every society in which organised communism was in power?

Essentially because religions represent an alternative power-structure - spiritual against temporal - which is a threat to any autocratic system.

"Persecution" is an emotive term. Temporal autocrats will seek control over religious establishments, but active persecution just stirs up trouble.

 

[plumjam]

Five examples?
In case you haven't noticed, I wrote "Religious warS". This includes, besides the Crusades, all the Protestants X Catholics bloodsheds, many of the killings and clashes that happened during the India/Pakistan divide, pogroms, just to name a few of the killings "in the name of god".

A bit more than five, I would say...

Oh, yes, this also includes the "Lets kill all those who worship Baal, in the name of our Lord!" This is a very high moral standard, BTW...

And regarding the numbers... You seem to be forgetting two things:

1. There were less people around say, back in the XV Century, than in the XX Century;
2. The technology available say, back in the XV Century, was much more primitive than XX Century technology.

yep,

you wrote 5 examples, and a kind of infinite fifth example "religious wars"... and with my 2 examples covering just 52 years of human history I pretty conclusively showed that my point was correct.. i.e. that atheists with political power kill people at a hugely increased rate to that of theists with political power

 

[plumjam]

Essentially because religions represent an alternative power-structure - spiritual against temporal - which is a threat to any autocratic system.

"Persecution" is an emotive term. Temporal autocrats will seek control over religious establishments, but active persecution just stirs up trouble.

I generally agree, ..just wondering which system you would prefer to live under

 

[CapelDodger]

Why does every theistic religion persecute members of all other religions once they attain governmental power?

They don't. I think you're reading too much into Christianity, which inherits its fixation on orthodoxy from the Roman Imperial mindset. Judaism and Islam don't share it. They reflect a very different imperial model, one that celebrated the variety of its subjects. Living in a multi-belief society is built into the religions.

 

[CapelDodger]

I generally agree, ..just wondering which system you would prefer to live under

An informed democracy is my city-on-the-hill, and humanity has made great strides towards it. (Some very serious challenges have been fought off in the process, and this current upsurge in religious interest isn't serious.)

 

[plumjam]

An informed democracy is my city-on-the-hill, and humanity has made great strides towards it. (Some very serious challenges have been fought off in the process, and this current upsurge in religious interest isn't serious.)

hey, i'd generally agree with you on that one, even though i do believe that the concept of democratic choice in this society is 95% illusory... its basically flipping a switch every 5 years between two non-choices who are funded by corporate/state power in order to portray the illusion of freedom and choice.... the bastards

 

[Hokulele]

They don't. I think you're reading too much into Christianity, which inherits its fixation on orthodoxy from the Roman Imperial mindset. Judaism and Islam don't share it. They reflect a very different imperial model, one that celebrated the variety of its subjects. Living in a multi-belief society is built into the religions.

Sorry CD, I needed a tongue-in-cheek smiley for that post.

 

[Tumblehome]

hey, i'd generally agree with you on that one, even though i do believe that the concept of democratic choice in this God-centred society is 95% illusory... its basically flipping a switch every 5 years between two God-centred non-choices who are funded by God-centred corporate/state power in order to portray the illusion of God-centred freedom and choice.... the God-centred bastards

Fixed.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

It just so happens that history shows that centralised power in the hands of organised theists has been problematical, while centralised power in the hands of organised atheists has been disastrous.

Parody mode: 'It just so happens that history shows that centralized power in the hands of organized native South Americans has been problematical, while centralized power in the hands of organized whites has been disastrous'.

See how flawed that reasoning is? 'Every single European empire was led by white people. These empires persecuted and massacred non-whites in huge numbers. Hence... they did what they did primarily because they were white!'.

Same reasoning, different wrapping.

really? if organised communism has nothing to do with atheism why did organised communism persecute religion in every society in which organised communism was in power?

'If skin colour has nothing to do with Imperialism why did organised European empires persecute non-whites in every society in which organised Imperialism was in power? Evidently the Europeans did what they did because they had white skin.'

Again, do you see how flawed your reasoning is?

'On 9/11, Usama ibn Ladin, who lives in Afghanistan, flew two airplanes into buildings occupied by people who shave their beard and hair. Obviously, ibn Ladin did what he did because he lived in Afghanistan!'.

'Person a does not have trait x. He persecutes people who have trait x. Therefore, his lack of trait x is the reason why he persecutes.'

 

[CFLarsen]

Stalin was Secretary of the Communist Party from 1922, but this position only became the effective leader from 1928.. and then he ruled till his death in 1953.

Stalin consolidated his power long before he became party secretary. It is impossible to draw a line and say "Hey, from here on, he was supreme ruler".

So, that's an estimated total of 81m for Stalin and Mao, and this does not include deaths from external aggressive wars, nor internal rebellions.
Most of the wars in history have not been primarily religious, but economic/imperial. The worst figures I can find for a primarily religious war are about 7.5m for the Thirty Years War. After that are the French Catholic/Huguenot wars totalling 3m.

So that leaves another 70.5m deaths that need to be found in primarily religious wars in history, just to outdo Mao and Stalin. I'd be interested if anyone could manage this.

There is one basic flaw in that line of reasoning: You forget that there was considerably fewer people around earlier in history. It wasn't possible to kill off 50 million people in historical times.

If we were to include all communism then mid-range estimates are 110m of their own citizens killed, excluding wars and rebellion.. an average superseding more than 1 million people per year.

some figures are available here http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

Let's take a look at that:

Few would deny any longer that communism--Marxism-Leninism and its variants--meant in practice bloody terrorism, deadly purges, lethal gulags and forced labor, fatal deportations, man-made famines, extrajudicial executions and show trials, and genocide.

Wrong. Communist rule does not automatically mean all this. History tells us that there have been all these kinds of things before communism, and they will exist after communism.

A revealing gem is this:

It is not by chance that the greatest famines have occurred within the Soviet Union (about 5,000,000 dead during 1921-23 and 7,000,000 from 1932-3) and communist China (about 27,000,000 dead from 1959-61).

There have been famines in the areas covered by the Soviet Union and Communist China, before the regimes were in place.

Interestingly enough,

China has not experienced a major famine since 1961 (Woo-Cummings, 2002).
Source

Read the link: Famines have also occurred many times in just about any country in the course of history.

Blame famines on communism is evidence of an inherent bias in your data.

they based their rule on communist ideology, which is positively anti-religious. Hence Stalins persecution of the church, imprisonment of Christians..etc, and Mao's persecution of Tibetan monks, destruction of monasteries etc..

But the major principle behind communism wasn't atheism.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

they based their rule on communist ideology, which is positively anti-religious. Hence Stalins persecution of the church, imprisonment of Christians..etc, and Mao's persecution of Tibetan monks, destruction of monasteries etc..

Exactly. Listen to what you're saying here. They based their society on communism. One of Soviet communism's principles happened to be anti-theism, as opposed to atheism.

Atheism≠Anti-theism. Just like white skin colour≠Neo-nazism.

You finally got it. Soviet communism is to blame, not atheism. Kudos to you.

 

[Correa Neto]

yep,

you wrote 5 examples, and a kind of infinite fifth example "religious wars"... and with my 2 examples covering just 52 years of human history I pretty conclusively showed that my point was correct.. i.e. that atheists with political power kill people at a hugely increased rate to that of theists with political power

Nope. The best you could say is that killings increase with technological and population levels.

"Kill all those who worship Baal in the name of the Lord!"
Imagine if the members of a certain semitic tribe thousands of years ago would do if they had automatic fireweapons...

 

[T'ai Chi]

Safe-Keeper, then you're also saying it isn't the religion to blame, but the people involved.

 

[CFLarsen]

Safe-Keeper, then you're also saying it isn't the religion to blame, but the people involved.

Same thing.

Unless you claim that God exists without people.

 

[cyborg]

How much does culture weigh?

 

[CFLarsen]

How much does culture weigh?

42.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Does anyone know of any culture, anywhere, from any time period, that had atheism as its center?

The Chinese, for as long as history records.

I see a lot, all as far as I can see, of cultures with some type of religion as their center.

But for some reason you don't name any of them.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Edited by Miss A: 

Off topic, rule 12 violation removed

Remember rule 12 and keep posts in the public areas on topic.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Miss Anthrope