Culture with atheism as center?

[Foster Zygote]

It's a pretty ridiculous argument...

Welcome to the forum. Oh, I see you've already met T'ai Chi.

...it doesn't demand that you center your culture around it.

Well said.

 

[Correa Neto]

a few attempts have been made to construct atheism-centered societies.

it just so happens that they've turned out to be the most murderous in history.
keep trying though, chaps.
;-)

Mayas, Aztecs, Spanish Inquisition, Talibans, religious wars...

Someone needs to read some History books...

 

[Miss Anthrope]

a few attempts have been made to construct atheism-centered societies.

it just so happens that they've turned out to be the most murderous in history.
keep trying though, chaps.
;-)

Did those societies murder in the name of atheism, or in the name of the state/communistic ideology?

 

[Miss Anthrope]

Mayas, Aztecs, Spanish Inquisition, Talibans, religious wars...

Someone needs to read some History books...

QFT

 

[Foster Zygote]

Did those societies murder in the name of atheism, or in the name of the state/communistic ideology?

One can even argue that the "official state atheism" as used in certain countries was simply a political tool used to suppress rival power structures within the society. In other words: Atheism was not a conclusion drawn from much thought, but rather a declaration of the state for political reasons.

 

[T'ai Chi]

Did those societies murder in the name of atheism, or in the name of the state/communistic ideology?

Can you please differentiate for us how promoting non-belief as superior and getting rid of people becuase they believe is different than murdering in the name of atheism?

 

[Jekyll]

Can you please differentiate for us how promoting non-belief as superior and getting rid of people becuase they believe is different than murdering in the name of atheism?

Because they were murdering in the name of communism. I know both words end in -ism and that many communists are atheists, but they still mean different things.

 

[plumjam]

Mayas, Aztecs, Spanish Inquisition, Talibans, religious wars...

Someone needs to read some History books...

you mention 5 examples.

My 2 examples - the USSR under Stalin and China under Mao - these periods, totalling only 25 years and 27 years respectively, in only 2 nations, far outnumber your 5 examples in the number of people killed for ideological/religious
reasons, including all the people killed in all religious wars in known human history.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I would hope the future culture of humanity would centre- if that verb is applicable - on scientific rationalism and respect for objective truth, not on the absence of belief in something improbable.

 

[CFLarsen]

you mention 5 examples.

My 2 examples - the USSR under Stalin and China under Mao - these periods, totalling only 25 years and 27 years respectively

How do you figure that Stalin's period was 25 years?

Why only USSR under Stalin and China under Mao?

including all the people killed in all religious wars in known human history.

How do you know how many people were killed in all religious wars in known human history?

 

[plumjam]

I would hope the future culture of humanity would centre- if that verb is applicable - on scientific rationalism and respect for objective truth, not on the absence of belief in something improbable.

unfortunately scientific rationalism and respective for objective truth are not systems of thought that require any concentration on morality, so, as history has shown, when societies try to base themselves primarily on these principles horrendous abuses of morality ensue

 

[CFLarsen]

unfortunately scientific rationalism and respective for objective truth are not systems of thought that require any concentration on morality, so, as history has shown, when societies try to base themselves primarily on these principles horrendous abuses of morality ensue

Neither Stalin or Mao based their rule primarily on the principle of atheism.

 

[plumjam]

How do you figure that Stalin's period was 25 years?

Why only USSR under Stalin and China under Mao?



How do you know how many people were killed in all religious wars in known human history?

Stalin was Secretary of the Communist Party from 1922, but this position only became the effective leader from 1928.. and then he ruled till his death in 1953.
Yes, I could have chosen the USSR for its whole duration.. which would have been 61m of its own citizens killed instead of Stalins 43m figure. I could have chosen China, where mid-range estimates are about 40m, but go all the way up to 106m (less is known about China than the USSR, as the political system there has somewhat endured). Estimates for Mao are around 38m of his own people killed.

So, that's an estimated total of 81m for Stalin and Mao, and this does not include deaths from external aggressive wars, nor internal rebellions.
Most of the wars in history have not been primarily religious, but economic/imperial. The worst figures I can find for a primarily religious war are about 7.5m for the Thirty Years War. After that are the French Catholic/Huguenot wars totalling 3m.

So that leaves another 70.5m deaths that need to be found in primarily religious wars in history, just to outdo Mao and Stalin. I'd be interested if anyone could manage this.

If we were to include all communism then mid-range estimates are 110m of their own citizens killed, excluding wars and rebellion.. an average superseding more than 1 million people per year.

some figures are available here http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

 

[plumjam]

Neither Stalin or Mao based their rule primarily on the principle of atheism.

they based their rule on communist ideology, which is positively anti-religious. Hence Stalins persecution of the church, imprisonment of Christians..etc, and Mao's persecution of Tibetan monks, destruction of monasteries etc..

 

[Hokulele]

<snip>

some figures are available here http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

Too bad you didn't read that entire article. The author admitted that the high total is partially due to the large populations of those countries. If you were to look at deaths by percentage of population, Pol Pot was much worse. Also, it is key to note the conclusion of the article.

But there is a larger lesson to be learned from this horrendous sacrifice to one ideology. That is that no one can be trusted with power. The more power the center has to impose the beliefs of an ideological or religious elite or impose the whims of a dictator, the more likely human lives are to be sacrificed. This is but one reason, but perhaps the most important one, for fostering liberal democracy.

 

[plumjam]

Too bad you didn't read that entire article. The author admitted that the high total is partially due to the large populations of those countries. If you were to look at deaths by percentage of population, Pol Pot was much worse. Also, it is key to note the conclusion of the article.

I don't quite understand why you're mentioning Pol Pot, as he and the Khmer Rouge were about as extremely atheist/communist as you can get.

I generally agree with his conclusion. It just so happens that history shows that centralised power in the hands of organised theists has been problematical, while centralised power in the hands of organised atheists has been disastrous.

 

[Miss Anthrope]

I don't quite understand why you're mentioning Pol Pot, as he and the Khmer Rouge were about as extremely atheist/communist as you can get.

I generally agree with his conclusion. It just so happens that history shows that centralised power in the hands of organised theists has been problematical, while centralised power in the hands of organised atheists has been disastrous.

Organized communism has nothing to do with atheism. No matter how hard you try, there is no organized atheism in this regard.

 

[plumjam]

Organized communism has nothing to do with atheism. No matter how hard you try, there is no organized atheism in this regard.

really? if organised communism has nothing to do with atheism why did organised communism persecute religion in every society in which organised communism was in power?

 

[Hokulele]

I don't quite understand why you're mentioning Pol Pot, as he and the Khmer Rouge were about as extremely atheist/communist as you can get.

Oddly enough, Cambodia did not practice "standard" communism, and actually incorporated several elements of Buddhism into their ideology. Pol Pot himself was originally a Buddhist novice. It is true that there was great oppression of other religions, but both Soviet Russia and Cambodia did support some form of state religion.

I generally agree with his conclusion. It just so happens that history shows that centralised power in the hands of organised theists has been problematical, while centralised power in the hands of organised atheists has been disastrous.

I disagree. The oppression in all three regimes currently under discussion is strictly internally directed, and was for the most part anti-intellectualist rather than anti-religious. The expansionism and forced conversion practices of the theistic states have been far more disastrous to humanity in general, leading to acts of genocide, imperialism, and multi-generational feuding. I am not suggesting that communist states are a better form of government (heck no!), but that your comment of "problematical" is not founded in history once you look at the larger picture.

 

[Hokulele]

really? if organised communism has nothing to do with atheism why did organised communism persecute religion in every society in which organised communism was in power?

Why does every theistic religion persecute members of all other religions once they attain governmental power?