LTC8K6
Penultimate Amazing
My guess is if you asked about someone's ATM PIN, they'd say "Huh?", but if you said ATM PIN number, they'd know what you meant. 
I've responded by PM, describing one method in detail. I just want to add here that of course, the existence of such a method is not proof that the man wasn't really reading your mind. The point, however, is that the reasoning, "he must be a mind reader because there's no other way he could have done it," is not a valid conclusion if in fact there are other ways he could have done it.
Respectfully,
Myriad
dannagain
Thinker
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no, magicians just have to not pretend that they are psychic and be open about the fact that there are never any supernatural explanations to their feats. if a person still refuses to accept that someone like derren brown is not psychic even after hearing derren brown himself say so then they are beyond hope and will probably dismiss the explanations of the tricks as 'not being the real explanations'
baron
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I detect the aroma of rotten logic.
It's reasonable to criticise someone who believes in psychic phenomena, but it's not reasonable to heap further criticism on that person for disbelieving Derren Brown when he says he isn't psychic.
Derren Brown is a professional entertainer and illusionist, and inherent in his business is the requirement to mislead, misdirect and misinform. And probably other words beginning with 'mis'.
Therefore, given that he is under no obligation to tell the truth, and that the information he does divulge is geared to furthering his career rather than communicating veracity, Derren Brown saying he's not psychic in no way reduces the liklihood that he is psychic, vanishingly small as that may be.
Please think about this as you're repairing your Shift key.
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dannagain
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Wow Baron, congrats for making one of the lamest posts I've read here.
Magicians/mentalists/illusionists are only actors in a play. And just like actors they are allowed to "lie" and misinform how much that they want during the PERFORMANCE. Because it's part of their act. But outside of the performance they stop acting and tell the truth about thesemlves and what they really do.
Derren keeps saying in interviews or anywhere else that he doesn't believe in psychics and that he's only an mentalist/magician. It's no longer part of his performance, but part of reality and who he really is. Not only that, he keeps debunking psychics on his shows and keeps saying how he doesn't believe in the supernatural.
With your (very rotten) logic, people are allowed to say that George Clooney is really a doctor because he portrayed one on TV.. it doesn't matter how many times Clooney would say he's not a doctor, people can still be fooled by his performance and think he's a doctor in real life even if he denies it.
Actually you don't have any logic, sorry.
Magicians/mentalists/illusionists are only actors in a play. And just like actors they are allowed to "lie" and misinform how much that they want during the PERFORMANCE. Because it's part of their act. But outside of the performance they stop acting and tell the truth about thesemlves and what they really do.
Derren keeps saying in interviews or anywhere else that he doesn't believe in psychics and that he's only an mentalist/magician. It's no longer part of his performance, but part of reality and who he really is. Not only that, he keeps debunking psychics on his shows and keeps saying how he doesn't believe in the supernatural.
With your (very rotten) logic, people are allowed to say that George Clooney is really a doctor because he portrayed one on TV.. it doesn't matter how many times Clooney would say he's not a doctor, people can still be fooled by his performance and think he's a doctor in real life even if he denies it.
Actually you don't have any logic, sorry.
baron
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I hope your argument is going to be of the intelligent variety, because you seem very confident of yourself.
You don't say
Do they? Please provide some evidence for your naive statement, especially in relation to Derren Brown who has been the subject of much controversy in this area. It's a moot point anyway, as hopefully I will be able to demonstrate, but it's also rubbish.
If you're incapable of understanding my point then I doubt this additional explanation will help. However, I'll try again.
Firstly, I do not for one moment believe Derren Brown is psychic. Let's try and limit your confusion by clearing up that point.
What I said was, if he was psychic, then it would not be in his best interests to declare it, because his (very successful) career is based around being an illusionist and mentalist and not being lumped in with the ten-a-penny psychic frauds. Logically, therefore, his declaration that he is not psychic does not reduce the liklihood that he is psychic, even though that likelihood is almost non-existant.
Why would George Clooney want to cover up the fact he was a doctor, should that be true? Why can't you follow a simple argument?
I don't "have" any logic? I just love it when people use the English language to its full potential.
Senex
Philosopher
Why on earth would a man with unique abilities spend the time to demonstrate them on you? He could work for the CIA for big bucks rather than entertain a simple fellow like yourself.
Real mind readers working for chump change doesn't make any sense. Our intelligence service would have no need to torture anyone if there were mind readers. Just put the suspect and the mind reader in the same room. None of our adversaries would complain about the torture of the mind reader you experienced like they do about the water board info readers and such they do now.
It's silly to think if anyone really could read minds they would read your mind instead of work for big money.
Yes, they do. Especially Derren, who is a well known skeptic. And it's obvious you know nothing about him if you need someone to give you evidence about it. It's enough to read and watch his interviews, articles, TV appearances, published books and so on. He says it every chance he gets.. Did you even think of doing some research or you always ask others to show you things?
Anyway, from his website:
"Derren Brown is a unique force in the world of illusion - he can seemingly predict and control human behaviour.
He doesn't claim to be a mind-reader, instead he describes his craft as a mixture of magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship."
Here's one interview of many where he talks about his skepticism and debunking the Seance (he also had another speacial where he debunked psychics in general).
http://badpsychics.com/thefraudfiles/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=31
And the controversy was never about the possibilty that some people might see Derren as a psychic or have supernatural powers, because he keeps saying he doesn't. It was about if he sometimes uses psychological techniques like NLP in his effects, which has nothing to do with this thread. Please get your facts straight.
So what you are saying is that all those times Derren has said he's a skeptic and Atheist and that he hates all those psychics who exploit people, could still lead some people to believe it's only an "act" and misdirection?
Do you also think that some people might see Randi (who is a friend of Derren) as psychic, and that they will think the whole purpose of this website and his skepticism was to hide this fact?
English isn't my first language, so I apologize if it's not 100% perfect. I noticed it's the second time you make fun of people's writing skills, like when you asked dannagain to use the Shift key. Please stop doing that becasue it has nothing to do with our discussion and just makes you seem like you have nothing real to say.
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arthwollipot
Limerick Purist Pronouns: He/Him
baron
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Why are you totally incapable of understanding what I'm saying? And why on earth do you think I haven't researched Derren Brown? And even if I hadn't, which I most certainly have, it has nothing to do with the point I was making.
Yet again you have failed to understand basic logic. I never suggested there was any controversy over Derren using psychic powers, what I said was that there was controversy over whether he told the truth about his techniques.
No, it wouldn't "lead some people" to believe he's psychic, it simply wouldn't logically lessen the liklihood. How many more times?
Do you also think that some people might see Randi (who is a friend of Derren) as psychic, and that they will think the whole purpose of this website and his skepticism was to hide this fact?
How would I know?
I would not have criticised your response had it not been an attempted insult. However, it was, so I did. Get over it and quit your moaning.
And yes, I criticised dannagain for consistently and deliberately using incorrect syntax, which made his posts difficult to read. So what?
No, I won't stop doing it.
That is correct.
Also correct. It was simply a throwaway remark, a quick comment on the logic of a previous statement, but for some reason I felt the need to make DJM understand what I was talking about. Next time I'll know better.
Do you also think that some people might see Randi (who is a friend of Derren) as psychic, and that they will think the whole purpose of this website and his skepticism was to hide this fact?
There really are people who believe Randi is psychic and uses his powers to supress the competition. As always, there's no point trying to come up with new woo because someone else will already believe it.
Yes, I understand there are always people who would believe aything, even if they are told it's all fake. But in my opinion that's the "rotten logic" as Baron likes to say.
When someone like Derren calls himself a magician/mentalist/illusionist and even a sketpic, then that's the only thing people need to know that what he does is illusion and nothing more. I knew that when I was like 4 years old, it's not a new invention. Magicians create illusions. There's no reason for anyone to suspect there's something psychic about what magicians do or they got something to hide.. that's their job, like movie actors.
Some people might see magicians as psychic even if they are told it's not true by the magicians themselves. But some might also see soap opera characters as real people, that doesn't mean there's something logical about it.
So I completely agree with this post that Baron decided to nitpick about:
When someone like Derren calls himself a magician/mentalist/illusionist and even a sketpic, then that's the only thing people need to know that what he does is illusion and nothing more. I knew that when I was like 4 years old, it's not a new invention. Magicians create illusions. There's no reason for anyone to suspect there's something psychic about what magicians do or they got something to hide.. that's their job, like movie actors.
Some people might see magicians as psychic even if they are told it's not true by the magicians themselves. But some might also see soap opera characters as real people, that doesn't mean there's something logical about it.
So I completely agree with this post that Baron decided to nitpick about:
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Thank you for the PM. It was very interesting. I don't know what to say really. Perhaps it was just a trick like the one you described. The only way for me to know for sure is if the man who played the mind reading game on me, replies to what I wrote about him.
The one thing that still bothers me however is this:
The man never said more than hi and goodbye the entire semester long to me, and he always sat next to me in class. In fact, when he asked if I wanted to play a game, it took me by surprise, because it was the most he had ever said to me all semester. Why did he wait until the last day of class to play a trick on me. Why didn't he do it earlier on in the semester where I could have asked more about his trick later on? And why bother with the stories about how he started reading minds as a child, by responding to his mother's questions before she asked them, and how hearing people's thoughts was a nuisance to him at times....etc. Why would he bother with made up stories about his childhood and not just admit it was a trick he learned? Perhaps it was all in good fun for him. I don't know. I never saw the man again after that, but if he played his mind reading game on me, then I assume he also played it on other students in other classes as well. I tried calling the college today, but they were closed. I am going to tell the office about my story and see what they can come up with for me.
I don't know if this will help in finding the man who played this game on me, but here it goes:
1994 was the year. Southern California is the place. It happened at one of the community colleges.
I will let you all know about what the college tells me soon.
As far as the arguments being made about Derren Brown, I still say he is either lying about not having paid actors, or he is lying about not being able to read minds. Take your pick. One of them is a lie.
I have only recently begun watching Derren Brown (on the Sci-Fi Channel in the US), and have now seen 2-and-a-half of his shows. I am not an illusionist or a magician, but even I can figure out how a lot of his tricks are done. I think you have set up a false dichotomy. He does not have to lie (although there is definitely misdirection) in order to acheive what he is able to acheive.
I must add that I am really enjoying the show, and may be developing a bit of a crush.
Linda
Happycats, Uri Geller has been making up stories of super powers for 30 years, and he's only a magician. Some people like the attention to feel they are different than others, the way kids make up stories to impress. That was most likely the case with that person you met.
I want to make sure, first, that I'm not violating any particular etiquette about revealing tricks. Maybe this doesn't apply to non-magicians? Advice anyone?
I can start with something general, I think.
Linda