No, DNA and personal effects of the passengers do not prove that the planes crashed (they could be planted). Only documented and identified wreckage parts of each plane can evidently prove that the plane in question crashed. Evident, isn't it? Any good patriot should agree!
An email from a Conspiracy theorist, and I have no idea how
- Thread starter Undesired Walrus
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No, DNA and personal effects of the passengers do not prove that the planes crashed (they could be planted). Only documented and identified wreckage parts of each plane can evidently prove that the plane in question crashed. Evident, isn't it? Any good patriot should agree!
Belz...
Fiend God
Of course not, since they ALSO could be planted.
What does patriotism have to do with it ? Does that mean that non-Americans can't agree ?
Zorglub
Thinker
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Why oh why should one ask if the parts of planes found around WTC really came from the same planes that crashed into the towers? Two planes slammed into the towers. Debris from two planes were found at the crash site. And you think they should check if the parts belonged to those planes!?Heiwa said:
Only if you try to withhold the No-plane-theory is your question valid.
Sadly you don´t see how deformed your rethoric is.
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
But if "they" can forge DNA and personal effects, covertly plant debris, CGI planes in live broadcasts, etc. etc. why wouldn't "they" just forge documents and identifications of wreckage parts?
Don't you see how faulty your logic is? Seriously?
So documented and identified parts of actual human beings are not evidence, but documented parts from a mass-produced object such as an aircraft are evidence?
Would you really accept such documentation of aircraft parts or would you simply say they were planted or the documentation faked?
Belz is correct, it COULD all be planted. This leads back to my original point. Unless these googleinvestigators can find it through a "search" of cyberspace, or are personally shown the evidence, or it is made public, they feel it either (A) doesnt really exist, or (B) is planted/faked.
As a result, little evidence can be presented that they will consider valid, hence they perpetuate their own ridiculous theories.
READ MY LIPS!!!!!!!!!!
YOU, AS AN ORDINARY CITIZEN, ARE NOT ENTITLED TO EVIDENCE IN AN ONGOING CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION. YOU ARE NOT EVEN ENTITLED TO THE EVIDENCE IN A COMPLETED CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION UNLESS DEEMED SO BY LEGISLATION OR A COURT OF LAW...GOT IT???
TAM
As a result, little evidence can be presented that they will consider valid, hence they perpetuate their own ridiculous theories.
READ MY LIPS!!!!!!!!!!
YOU, AS AN ORDINARY CITIZEN, ARE NOT ENTITLED TO EVIDENCE IN AN ONGOING CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION. YOU ARE NOT EVEN ENTITLED TO THE EVIDENCE IN A COMPLETED CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION UNLESS DEEMED SO BY LEGISLATION OR A COURT OF LAW...GOT IT???
TAM
No, because it is not so easy to falsify plane wreckage. And it is so easy to verify plane wreckage.
Take this AA77 at Pentagon. It would have been nice to see a chair with a built in phone, etc. But all chairs/phones (if any) just disappeared. Burnt to ashes. But the FDR survived ... and showed according NTSB a different flight path than given by the 9/11 commission. But the CVR disappeared.
Belz...
Fiend God
And yet you think the wreckage was falsified...
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
Well by truther logic it is. If its a documentation of a plane wreckage (eg paper or photo), made by anyone even remotely connected to authorities, then its forged, and/or planted. No evidence to prove this is needed of course, its a default.
How do you verify wreckage?
And if a chair had existed, truthers would say "How convienient".
And the FDR doesn't "according to NTSB" show a different flight path. You still confuse their analysis and the animation.
twinstead
Penultimate Amazing
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Are you kidding? Are you suggesting that the creators of your brilliant plan, the one that fooled thousands of eye-witnesses and thousands of experts from multiple scientific disciplines world-wide couldn't have faked some airplane parts?
Sadly, I suspect that if matching airplane parts WERE found, you'd be complaining that they were faked, and muse "why didn't they produce any DNA evidence which would REALY prove their case?"
And the mental gymnastics continue...
How do you verify wreckage?
Everything you find must be properly documented under controlled conditions, etc. You do not allow amateurs to collect it and throw it in a garbage container as done by FBI. Then there is no control anymore. Thus, if a chair had been found and documented properly, a lot of discussions could be avoided if it had a phone or not. Obvious, n'est-ce pas?
The NTSB AA77 FDR animation shows a different flight path than the 9/11 Commission report. One fault, apart from the last course vis-à-vis Pentagon, of the NTSB animation is that they do not correct the altitude, when the plane descends below a certain height (when you must do a manual local pressure correction). If you do this correction the animation becomes even more weird = the plane flies high over Pentagon and cannot chop off lamp posts and kill 100's of human beings, etc. It is very sloppy work by NTSB - and NTSB refuses to correct it.
And the obvious question is: Was NTSB actually examining an FDR originating from AA77? Somebody says the FDR was found inside Pentagon ... but can we be sure?
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
Sorry, my questions wasn't clear enough, let me rephrase:
How do you verify wreckage in such a way as to make truthers satisified? The answer is simple, of course, you can't (and I'm pretty sure satisfying investigoogling truthers is low on the priority list for the FBI). As long as anything remotely connected to the government, say a law enforcing agency of any kind, truthers will yell "forged" and "planted" at first sight and, as you have done several times, avoid at any cost presenting any actual proof of foul play.
Point is, if everything would be published so you could find it when you investigoogle it, you would still maintain it was forged and/or planted. Just like you do when it comes to the presence of debris outside the Pentagon, and the findings of the DNA at all sites. And I see you are working your way at having a go at those pesky phones again. Have you written to American Airlines yet?
And on a side note, you have no idea under what conditions the FBI investigation was and is made.
And you do know that the animation is not the NTSB analysis of the FDR? You do, because I have repetedly pointed this out to you.
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Well, you're just going to have to cut those New Yorkers a little slack here.
Thing is, on 9/11, there were several hundreds already dead from the plane crashes and maybe thousands more doomed, and two massive buildings in flames and ... well ... I imagine it was kind of hard to follow strict procedures ... what with aircraft landing gear being found in the road and fuselage debris on roofs and all. At a guess it was all - sort of - different from routine work.
p.s. - Heiwa - you never did tell us about your marine engineering experience and list the marine accidents that you investigated. This could be your chance to remedy that omission !!
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Wrong again
Over a hundred people saw with their eyes Flight 77 impact the light posts and the Pentagon. Again this makes you wrong.
You did not look at the data on the FDR. So how do you know what the altitude is. Did you know there is data missing? Did you know the navigation data information from the FDR is only accurate to 1000 to 3000 feet, and the last navigation position is over 3000 feet away from the Pentagon? Do you know anything about 9/11?
You are without fact, just repeating what you hear. I have the data you can get from the NTSB or the jokers at p4t. The pilots for truth, p4t, have the DME from DCA. This data places flight 77 over 3000 feet from the Pentagon lined up to make the damage at the Pentagon. Did you know they decoded more data to confirm the FDR is from flight 77 because they saw all the other flight made by that aircraft on the FDR? Did you know they will not line up where flight 77 was because it will destroy their selling DVDs that are made of lies. Reporting the last position of Flight 77 will destroy the lies of p4t and prove there is data missing due to damage or some other reason and 4 or 5 seconds are missing?
You are just repeating lies of 9/11 truth. Try to think for yourself and stop believing anything you can not figure out yourself. Stop spreading lies.
The FDR does not show any flight path. I have seen all the numbers from the FDR. I have them, as you can from the NTSB. The NTSB video animation is a working copy. Working copy, means not finished. The NTSB has the Pentagon turned the wrong heading, by 20 degree. Are you able to think using facts? You are not very good at this if you can not see that error. In fact you are not good if you can not find that error. Do you know what heading flight 77 was on when it approached the Pentagon? The heading 77 was on lines up with the damage at the Pentagon and the impact hole. This means you are wrong.
Over a hundred people saw with their eyes Flight 77 impact the light posts and the Pentagon. Again this makes you wrong.
You did not look at the data on the FDR. So how do you know what the altitude is. Did you know there is data missing? Did you know the navigation data information from the FDR is only accurate to 1000 to 3000 feet, and the last navigation position is over 3000 feet away from the Pentagon? Do you know anything about 9/11?
You are without fact, just repeating what you hear. I have the data you can get from the NTSB or the jokers at p4t. The pilots for truth, p4t, have the DME from DCA. This data places flight 77 over 3000 feet from the Pentagon lined up to make the damage at the Pentagon. Did you know they decoded more data to confirm the FDR is from flight 77 because they saw all the other flight made by that aircraft on the FDR? Did you know they will not line up where flight 77 was because it will destroy their selling DVDs that are made of lies. Reporting the last position of Flight 77 will destroy the lies of p4t and prove there is data missing due to damage or some other reason and 4 or 5 seconds are missing?
You are just repeating lies of 9/11 truth. Try to think for yourself and stop believing anything you can not figure out yourself. Stop spreading lies.
twinstead
Penultimate Amazing
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Asking somebody like Heiwa to think for himself is like asking him not to breathe. He believes every single word anybody says that supports his world view no questions asked.
All I can say is I'm glad folks like Heiwa and Galileo and Ace and Malcolm aren't in charge.
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
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Let me ask this question to anyone claiming the videos of the aircraft impacts were faked:
When the first television ads for the movie Live Free or Die Hard started playing, could you tell which cars were CGI and which were real in the action sequences shown? Because if you can't, then you've got no business trying to claim this bit or that in the 9/11 videos are digital effects creations. If you can't spot a special effects shot on a normal speed viewing of a video, then you've got no eye for spotting special effects. Period. End of story.
To repeat myself:
And what about the 40+ other angles of the event that were recorded? What about the many still photographs of the event? What about the reporters and journalists from many non-U.S. television stations and newspapers - why do they report the same things as U.S. media? What about all the eyewitnesses to the impacts? What about all the corroborating physical evidence, e.g. aircraft wreckage, DNA, etc.?
Do you have any sort of reasonable rebuttal to these?
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Unfit4Command
Muse
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So you believe that all of the said planes were secretly landed, the passengers were taken off of the planes by unnamed people at an unnamed air strip, in an unknown area. The passengers were then killed in an unknown way, then planted at the said locations by unknown people without ANYONE involved in the cleanup and recovery of these sites noticing?
Also, the people weren't only killed, they must have been burned also.
"When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him.
'It was the worst thing you can imagine,' said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. 'I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside.'"
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/sept01/2001-09-14-pentagon-usat.htm#more
Remember how small a lot of the remains found at Shanksville were? The passengers must have also been mutilated by unknown people, then had their flesh and bones spread around the site.
"As coroner, responsible for returning human remains, [Wally] Miller has been forced to share with the families information that is unimaginable. As he clinically recounts to them, holding back very few details, the 33 passengers, seven crew and four hijackers together weighed roughly 7,000 pounds. They were essentially cremated together upon impact. Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8¬Found=true
If I have what you believe happened wrong, please correct me. I'm sick of listening to people spew BS with NO evidence to back it up, like personal effects and human remains being planted. Do you have any idea how sick that sounds? Who would be willing to take part in that?
Thanks for the info/link. So the plane didn't burn at all! Seats, safety belts, etc. were intact and scorched bodies of several airline passengers were found. Thus very easy to verify about phones in the chairs. BTW - what are the identity of these unfortunate airline passengers?
I think a crew like that was in charge in Germany in 1933.
You are 100% right that I use the the 'pilots for truth' analysis/animation of the AA77 FDR data as submitted by NTSB as base for my observations and to me it looks pretty convincing. Why would they falsify that? For selling DVDs? But you can see the whole thing on their web site. They seem pretty serious in my opinion. Many professional pilots suggest it is impossible for an unexperienced pilot to make the last 360° turn while descending and then flying close to the ground the last 500 yards cutting lamp posts hitting Pentagon at an angle, etc. Why would a suicide pilot or kamikaze do this and not hit straight? Questions like that haunts me.