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Loose Change - No Show

Speaking as a filmmaker, myself, I must say it is not exactly easy putting one of these things together, you know. The fact that Loose Change Final Cut is getting delayed, is not, in itself, evidence that the movie is going to be a bad one. It isn't the only amateur documentary facing preposterous delays!

Of course, I am not trying to defend the movie. On the contrary, I think it will be a hideous mess! But, I also think there are better arguments against it, than its simply getting delayed.
 
Speaking as a filmmaker, myself, I must say it is not exactly easy putting one of these things together, you know. The fact that Loose Change Final Cut is getting delayed, is not, in itself, evidence that the movie is going to be a bad one. It isn't the only amateur documentary facing preposterous delays!

Of course, I am not trying to defend the movie. On the contrary, I think it will be a hideous mess! But, I also think there are better arguments against it, than its simply getting delayed.

Agreed that delays in filmmaking occur all the time. I just think Dylan should refrain from making promises that he probably knows will not come true. Or it could be Dylan is so ignorant of hos to produce a film that he is continually optimistic.

Lurker
 
Speaking as a filmmaker, myself, I must say it is not exactly easy putting one of these things together, you know. The fact that Loose Change Final Cut is getting delayed, is not, in itself, evidence that the movie is going to be a bad one. It isn't the only amateur documentary facing preposterous delays!

That doesn't wash for several reasons:

1. Dylan Avery has made several preposterous claims for the release of the movie, like that it will be in 3000 theaters in 12 countries. If he can't meet those claims, it's his own fault.

2. Loose Change is ostensibly a documentary about a current event, meaning it is sensitive to time. The fifth anniversary of 9-11 was probably the best time to put the thing out, since a lot of retrospectives and whatnot were going on, plus the largest collection of 9-11 Twoofers in one place that there will probably ever be. I suspect media coverage of 9-11 conspiracy is down from last year, and will continue to decline. He's already missed his window. It's still slightly open, but less and less so every day.

3. Various LC-related news items have revealed that Dylan is not very far along in the movie-making process. I can think of two off the top my head: the news about Charlie Sheen being unsure if he would be narrator, and Alex Jones announcing he would be a financier for the movie. How can the movie be anywhere near finished if he's still getting the funding and performance contracts ironed out?

4. Dylan Avery has been very busy doing radio shows, trying to get on TV shows, putting out press releases, and making Internet posts instead of working on the final cut, as satirized in this poorly-drawn comic strip I made.

5. Most amateur filmmakers aren't equating themselves with Nelson Mandela, or saying that their pet projects are going to change the course of world history. Given the tremendous gravitas of Loose Change's allegations, you'd think finishing the movie would be a tiny bit more important to Dylan Avery than having Internet squabbles with Killtown and the no-planers.

If a 9-11 conspiracy film was ever going to become a mainstream phenomenon, someone else would have made it by now.
 
Actually, it looks like you did get banned. Your group name is "Gone" and your sig is now "I'm a Monkey's ball-sack!"
 
I see Avery has a new background on LCF. Looks like a cgi of wtc7.

He's obviously still paying out for the sfx for his film.

Oh and Ranb..... you're 'Gone'

Congrats!
 
1. Dylan Avery has made several preposterous claims for the release of the movie, like that it will be in 3000 theaters in 12 countries. If he can't meet those claims, it's his own fault.
Ah, that is a valid point. Over-hyping and over-selling always ends badly.

2. Loose Change is ostensibly a documentary about a current event, meaning it is sensitive to time. The fifth anniversary of 9-11 was probably the best time to put the thing out, (snip)
True. But, that, alone, is not a reason to bash it.
You should bash the movie for its focus on assumptions, in place of facts, etc. Not because it missed its best window of opportunity.

3. Various LC-related news items have revealed that Dylan is not very far along in the movie-making process. I can think of two off the top my head: the news about Charlie Sheen being unsure if he would be narrator, and Alex Jones announcing he would be a financier for the movie. How can the movie be anywhere near finished if he's still getting the funding and performance contracts ironed out?
Hell, I am making progress in my film, bit by bit, and I still have some major casting issues to iron out!
This may be a result of bad management and lack of resources, on both our parts. But, that alone, is no reason to chortle at them.

I would like to see you, (assuming you have no major connections in the movie industry), try to produce one of these things! It ain't so easy!

If these delays are actually caused by their theories constantly getting splattered when presented with contrary facts, then that would be a reason to laugh! ("Silly Twoofers, demolition tricks are for experts!")

4. Dylan Avery has been very busy doing radio shows, trying to get on TV shows, putting out press releases, and making Internet posts instead of working on the final cut, as satirized in this poorly-drawn comic strip I made.
I have been very busy going to work, watching movies, assembling some sort of social life, participating in LARPs, traveling to conventions, and posting stuff on this Forum.

Some people like their plates a little full.

5. Most amateur filmmakers aren't equating themselves with Nelson Mandela, or saying that their pet projects are going to change the course of world history.
Ah, another valid point. Ego and arrogance tend to make things end badly.

(At least I have enough sense to claim I might be not better than Ed Wood, in the end.)

Given the tremendous gravitas of Loose Change's allegations, you'd think finishing the movie would be a tiny bit more important to Dylan Avery than having Internet squabbles with Killtown and the no-planers.
Is that really eating at lot of his time? Hell, I get into Internet squabbles, every now and then. But, I don't let them take up gratuitous amounts of time.

If a 9-11 conspiracy film was ever going to become a mainstream phenomenon, someone else would have made it by now.
I do not doubt that. But, such a statement, alone, is no argument against the film.

Loose Change Final Cut (assuming it ever gets completed) will certainly not be worth anyone's time to watch. But, the reasons will probably have more to do with its veneer-thin arguments, bad physics, possibly out-of-context statements, lack of compelling evidence, disrespect for those involved in the event, and the annoying actor chosen for its voice over. Not because it was delayed beyond reason.

But, for this thread, we could focus on his mistake of over-hyping and over-ego-inflating himself, if you wish.
 
Speaking as a filmmaker, myself, I must say it is not exactly easy putting one of these things together, you know. The fact that Loose Change Final Cut is getting delayed, is not, in itself, evidence that the movie is going to be a bad one. It isn't the only amateur documentary facing preposterous delays!

Of course, I am not trying to defend the movie. On the contrary, I think it will be a hideous mess! But, I also think there are better arguments against it, than its simply getting delayed.

I could see the validity in your point, except 90% of what he has to get in terms of production, is already done. This film is not a sequel, but a "Final Cut". Sure 10-15% of it might be Brand New, but not much more than that. He has new animations, etc...how long to load those up into FCP and splice them in?

Given most of his film will be rehash of the old, with tidbits of new intertwined, I do not buy the "production/post-production" delays bit. It has been a LONG TIME, and this is what these guys do FULL TIME!!!

TAM:)
 
He'll have something ready for 9-10-07, but some of the pressing urgency is gone. A lot of people, including Dylan, assumed that 9-11-06 was going to be the last best hope for the 9-11 Denial Movement. But now that it's clear that it continues to grow, the only deadline that really matters is 1-20-09 (or thereabouts) when Hillary Clinton is inaugurated into office. Then I do think you'll see a lot of the air go out of the CT fantasies.
 
Actually, it looks like you did get banned. Your group name is "Gone" and your sig is now "I'm a Monkey's ball-sack!"

Well, I was not really expecting to get banned, certainly not so soon. So does this mean all of my posts are gone too?

Did anyone think that post was grounds for banning? Thanks.

Edited to add; how likely am I to get un-banned on LC 2.0? I was able to regain posting privileges after my first ban on the original LC forum by bring nice to JDX. Will merely asking Avery work this time?

Ranb
 
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Wowbagger, I think we're on different wavelengths. Let me try again:

The fact that Loose Change Final Cut is getting delayed, is not, in itself, evidence that the movie is going to be a bad one.

I agree. Delays do not, in themselves, make a film bad, nor does a lack of delays make them good. That is not my position.

My position is that the extensive delays in the theatrical release of Loose Change, combined with the news articles about the apparent lack of progress, and all the LTW blog posts about doing radio shows and other unimportant tripe, call Dylan Avery's overall competence into question.

In a way, I'm playing Devil's Advocate. I'm saying that if Loose Change is what it claims to be -- and it claims to be a lot -- then finishing it ought to take priority over everything else.

The LTW press release, assuming I've linked to the correct year, says "this truth will shatter the illusion of the war on terror, and will expose the deceit of the incumbent American adminstration." That strikes me as a teensy bit more important than doing radio talk shows, sucking up to Kevin Smith, trying to get on The View, badgering presidential candidates, and all the other chump-change antics LTW has been busy with the last couple months.

Some people like their plates a little full.

"Exposing the deceit of the incumbent American administration" ought to be a full enough plate for anyone not named Takeru Kobayashi or Superman.

I would like to see you, (assuming you have no major connections in the movie industry), try to produce one of these things! It ain't so easy!

Maybe I could send you the tapes of the segments I produced and/or directed for the PBS station at my university, when I was in college finishing my degree in Broadcast Journalism. So I'm not a complete armchair quarterback on the subject.

In fact, that's what influences my rather low opinion of Dylan Avery's film-making skills. As T.A.M. points out, most of the film is already done, and almost all of that was other people's footage to begin with. Maybe he's got to drop in some special effects, or a new interview or two. Ordinary local TV news reporters film interviews every day, and they air within hours. There may be some film nuances I'm not aware of, but there just isn't any excuse for something of this much alleged importance to have taken this long. Especially when 90% of it exists as a previous version.

If I ever believed in a 9-11 conspiracy -- and there was a time in my life when I would have been receptive -- Dylan Avery's far greater interest in promoting himself than in finishing a history-altering expose' of a mass murder would be enough to make me question his motives. And when discussing Loose Change phenomenon in general, I think it's relevant to point that out.
 
The 3rd version of the film and they are still working on a rough cut?

Fourth version, actually. Previously, there were the LC, LC2, and LC2-Recut versions. But, you know, the TroofTM needs multiple revisions before it is finally the Really-Really-Real-Troof-We-Mean-It-This-Time TroofTM.
 
What'll happen? Same thing that always happens when the revolution gets delayed.

The twoofers will simply blame the NWO, illuminati, COINTELPRO disinfo agents, JREF, the MSM....etc etc.

This logic has sustained them so far, hasn't it?

Hmm prison planet was blameing wikipedia black ops hackers for it's downtime.
 
Fourth version, actually. Previously, there were the LC, LC2, and LC2-Recut versions. But, you know, the TroofTM needs multiple revisions before it is finally the Really-Really-Real-Troof-We-Mean-It-This-Time TroofTM.
How many attempts before they are dismissed completely? Most directors get 1 chance to make a film. If they are lucky, they get to recut for a "director's cut" but rarely do they release 4 different versions because the preceding versions weren't good enough. And they never leave the mistakes in.
 
I could see the validity in your point, except 90% of what he has to get in terms of production, is already done. This film is not a sequel, but a "Final Cut". Sure 10-15% of it might be Brand New, but not much more than that. He has new animations, etc...how long to load those up into FCP and splice them in?

Given most of his film will be rehash of the old, with tidbits of new intertwined, I do not buy the "production/post-production" delays bit. It has been a LONG TIME, and this is what these guys do FULL TIME!!!
The last 10% of any big project usually takes 90% of the time, but I get your point. These guys do seem to be lazy and suffer delusions of granduer.

My position is that the extensive delays in the theatrical release of Loose Change, combined with the news articles about the apparent lack of progress, and all the LTW blog posts about doing radio shows and other unimportant tripe, call Dylan Avery's overall competence into question.
Well, I never meant to defend Avery's competence! Oh, lord no!

In a way, I'm playing Devil's Advocate. I'm saying that if Loose Change is what it claims to be -- and it claims to be a lot -- then finishing it ought to take priority over everything else.
Hmmm... Maybe he's getting paid to keep his mouth shut.

(j/k! :D )

"Exposing the deceit of the incumbent American administration" ought to be a full enough plate for anyone not named Takeru Kobayashi or Superman.
From what you were saying, it sounded like he was attempting to do that, from different angles, not just the film.

Maybe I could send you the tapes of the segments I produced and/or directed for the PBS station at my university, when I was in college finishing my degree in Broadcast Journalism. So I'm not a complete armchair quarterback on the subject.
Cool!
(But, it is even more difficult to get things done when you cast and crew are also working full-time, etc., and can not devote the time they would like to your project.)

There may be some film nuances I'm not aware of, but there just isn't any excuse for something of this much alleged importance to have taken this long. Especially when 90% of it exists as a previous version.
Who knows. but the 90% point is taken.

Dylan Avery's far greater interest in promoting himself than in finishing a history-altering expose' of a mass murder would be enough to make me question his motives. And when discussing Loose Change phenomenon in general, I think it's relevant to point that out.
Yes, pointing out his arrogance and ego and whatever is most acceptable!
 
Wowbagger, I'm not sure if you're aware, but there is an older thread here (you can probably search for it) that dates the post-production of LCFC back to early 2006. Not only that, Avery was proclaiming that the film would be released for the Spring Break 2007 - March, IIRC.
Other posters here have put forward the entirely logical suggestion that Avery doesn't want to release his film, because it's so poor that his adoring masses will quickly become un-adoring. Instead he wants to string them along for however long he can to keep the money rolling in, forever promising a release and never quite getting there.
 
Nothing personal, Wowbagger, because everything you're saying is perfectly sensible and reasonable, but I find it ironic that the only person saying anything in defence of LC:FC's production delays here is "Wowbagger, the Infinitely Prolonged".

Dave
 

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