The 9/11 Conspiracy Facts

how did this relate to anything in my post

what that story is saying and what you think are two compeletely different things, again do not start on the oil industry as you quite obviously have no idea what you are posting about
It shows how the US are forcing through a law that will take the country's oil wealth away from the Iraqis, to th US, and how the Iraqis are protesting against this. Wont read that in the MSM, will you?

Oh, and do not start on 9/11 as you quite obviously have no idea what you are posting about
 
I think that things are getting a little bit sidetracked here, so its useful to do a bit of a recap. I will now show where my argument has come to. It will be an important crystallisation of my argument thus far, and I am fully aware that there will not be anyone who will argue it sensibly. Nonetheless, I can only do this in the hope that people reading this will find your humiliation instructive.

The PNAC doc illustrates a military and strategic radicalisation that needs to take place if the US is to retain it's hegemony for the "New American Century". It is essential that these strategies are crystallised in decision makers minds by the tim of the Oct 01 QDR, and such changes need to happen under one coherent, global banner, not "decoupled" from one another.

The transformations recommended bear an astonishing resemblance, almost blow by blow, to what is now called the WOT. You can read more here

Further it is stated that the transformation will take several decades, absent a catastrophic and catalysing event. The reason for this extra duration is due to difficulties, backlogs and overhauls, difficulties that will be circumvented by the occurence of a new PH:

Domestic politics and
industrial policy will shape the pace and
content of transformation as much as the
requirements of current missions. A
decision to suspend or terminate aircraft
carrier production, as recommended by this
report and as justified by the clear direction
of military technology, will cause great
upheaval
. Likewise, systems entering
production today – the F-22 fighter, for
example – will be in service inventories for
decades to come
. Wise management of this
process will consist in large measure of
figuring out the right moments to halt
production of current-paradigm weapons
and shift to radically new designs. The
expense associated with some programs can
make them roadblocks to the larger process
of transformation
– the Joint Strike Fighter
program, at a total of approximately $200
billion, seems an unwise investment.

Hence, the new PH will make the process of transformation quicker, due to its enhanced ease. This leads as to the uncontroversial conclusion that a new PH was deemed propitious to policy.

PS- I was going to go onto foreknowledge, but I do wanna give anyone a chance to get distracted. Let's see how the herd of independent minds does with this.
 
I think that things are getting a little bit sidetracked here, so its useful to do a bit of a recap. I will now show where my argument has come to. It will be an important crystallisation of my argument thus far, and I am fully aware that there will not be anyone who will argue it sensibly. Nonetheless, I can only do this in the hope that people reading this will find your humiliation instructive.

When you say "your humiliation", are you referring to any particular poster or to the amorphous "them" who haunt your nightmares?

The PNAC doc illustrates a military and strategic radicalisation that needs to take place if the US is to retain it's hegemony for the "New American Century". It is essential that these strategies are crystallised in decision makers minds by the tim of the Oct 01 QDR, and such changes need to happen under one coherent, global banner, not "decoupled" from one another.

Well jeeze, they stuffed that up then didn't they?

The transformations recommended bear an astonishing resemblance, almost blow by blow, to what is now called the WOT. You can read more here

Further it is stated that the transformation will take several decades, absent a catastrophic and catalysing event. The reason for this extra duration is due to difficulties, backlogs and overhauls, difficulties that will be circumvented by the occurence of a new PH:

Not an extra duration mate, an actual real and expected duration. The transformations were made impossible by subsequent events (ie 9/11) and have consequently not happened. The US military is still bogged down in the same technology they had before and have not transformed into the high tech, multi-faceted unstoppable heroes of truth justice and whatever else that the PNAC wanted.


Hence, the new PH will make the process of transformation quicker, due to its enhanced ease. This leads as to the uncontroversial conclusion that a new PH was deemed propitious to policy.

as above.:duck:

PS- I was going to go onto foreknowledge, but I do wanna give anyone a chance to get distracted. Let's see how the herd of independent minds does with this.

Foreknowledge huh? Ya think them thar ebil gubments got sum witches? BURN 'EM!!!
 
1. ?

2. Hence why i said pejorative

3. He's a menial working, unrefined, ugly, uncultured simpleton, who lives in a shack and who people laugh at

4. I did up to now presume that you were a teenager, but now I assume you must be in you 40's? Can you guess my age? Ive never watvched that programme

1. not nice resorting to snideness and name calling is it?

2. its not pejorative to me at all and as i am scots i would know better than you, ask your scots mate if groundskeeper willie offends him

3. this is in no way stereotypical of a scotsman and is not supposed to be, it is certainly not racist which is what you are claiming, exactly what are homer simpsons trait? is this a racist chracter or a pejorative stereotype? if the scots character had been barney the drunk then you maybe, and only slightly maybe, have a had a small point here

4. never assume, check, i assumed you were intelligent and rational, i was wrong so that makes two of us

does willie ever have racist or bigotted lines in the show? does he offend scots?

now apply the same questions to borat but substitute scots with kazahks, jews, women, gay people etc

if you have the same answers then you are even less intelligent than i feared
 
wtf??? I have answered all your points time and time again. You are trying to equate the Litvinenko murder with 911. I have pointed out that, for one reason, the fact that 3000 died in one, and 1 died in the other, that one is much worse than the other.

Do you understand this?

was that the only question in the post?
 
It shows how the US are forcing through a law that will take the country's oil wealth away from the Iraqis, to th US, and how the Iraqis are protesting against this. Wont read that in the MSM, will you?

Oh, and do not start on 9/11 as you quite obviously have no idea what you are posting about

the US are not

as they should and as i would if i was ignorant of the facts

you have no idea how this wealth will get to america because you have no idea how the oil industry works and that "control" is the wrong word in this case

they are not stealing the oil, if so why do they import less now from iraq that they did before?

why waste a trillion dollars on this war when their biggest supplier is next door? venezuela is a better option than iraq also

do you think all countries oil industries are operated by the domestic companies and it is a closed industry to outsiders, i'll give you a clue here, the answer is no

look at mexico who are one of the few who have a closed shop, they produce next to nothing compared to wht they could because of lack of technology from outside countries (US) and high taxation by the govt

this law if anything will allow iraq to make more money from the oil

look at oil industry technology and where the majority of the companies are based that allow us to drill for oil, where do we go to to get rigs to drill for this oil? where do we go for the drilling technology and the completion technology?

unfortunately i know a lot of things about 911, for instance i knew the top deck in tower two was not powered down when scott claimed it was

that is only one, i do not know everything but i know enough to make my stand on it, i do not have to second guess documents and use pure speculation as my evidence
 
Iraq is part of the Gulf region, and has the 2nd largest proven oil reserves in the world (?). Hence it is a very important part of the Gulf region.

it is part of the gulf

does it have the 2nd largest proven reserves in the world? i told you not to get into this cause you are going to be wrong a lot of times

at least do some research before spouting this claim

the US were already in saudi which has the largest proven reserves in conventional oil, why waste all that time, lives and money for iraq's

remember proven in this case is not so clear as proven in a court of law
 
It shows how the US are forcing through a law that will take the country's oil wealth away from the Iraqis, to th US, and how the Iraqis are protesting against this. Wont read that in the MSM, will you?

in fact i have, in numerous MSM outlets??
 
Do you think we should show him all the docs about the CIA's activities in Venezuela (organising the coup against Chavez etc) to show how easy that kind of thing is to expose, or let him try to dig it up himself?
 
Oh, before I start replying, I should note some common refutations that get propounded by the herd-

1. But the Iraq war is draining much of the money.

This is an issue of the neo cons poor execution of the plan, rather than a refutation of their design

2. But the doc says ~"We advocate a process of transformation over the coming decades"- therefore they wanted a slow and hard change

No my empty headed friend, in this instance the only alternative "We advocate a new Pearl Harbor, and it must happen before Oct 2001". This clearly is never going to happen, and hence the argument is invalid. It does not touch at all on the fact that a new PH would have been propitious to policy.
 
When you say "your humiliation", are you referring to any particular poster or to the amorphous "them" who haunt your nightmares?

Amorphous them, but no nightmares. An odd post.

Well jeeze, they stuffed that up then didn't they?

Not an extra duration mate, an actual real and expected duration. The transformations were made impossible by subsequent events (ie 9/11) and have consequently not happened. The US military is still bogged down in the same technology they had before and have not transformed into the high tech, multi-faceted unstoppable heroes of truth justice and whatever else that the PNAC wanted.

How foresightful of me. Read my previous post,point 2 (you have in fact alluded to it in your 1st point here, inadvertently i assume)
 
1. not nice resorting to snideness and name calling is it?

2. its not pejorative to me at all and as i am scots i would know better than you, ask your scots mate if groundskeeper willie offends him

3. this is in no way stereotypical of a scotsman and is not supposed to be, it is certainly not racist which is what you are claiming, exactly what are homer simpsons trait? is this a racist chracter or a pejorative stereotype? if the scots character had been barney the drunk then you maybe, and only slightly maybe, have a had a small point here

4. never assume, check, i assumed you were intelligent and rational, i was wrong so that makes two of us

does willie ever have racist or bigotted lines in the show? does he offend scots?

now apply the same questions to borat but substitute scots with kazahks, jews, women, gay people etc

if you have the same answers then you are even less intelligent than i feared
Lol, sorry, but you have started arguing against yourself here. My point is that Willie isnt racist. Not the other way around.

This is because he is a stereotype of a scot (harsh accent, bagpipe playing, kilt wearing, footbal fan, red headed etc), and is depicted as a unrefined, ugly, uncultured simpleton
 
the US are not

as they should and as i would if i was ignorant of the facts

you have no idea how this wealth will get to america because you have no idea how the oil industry works and that "control" is the wrong word in this case

Good. So you can write to Amy Goodman and tell her that shes wrong. Oh, and write to the thousands of Iraqi oil workers who disagree with you too.

they are not stealing the oil, if so why do they import less now from iraq that they did before?

I said steal the oil wealth, not the oil. Big difference. They are suppressing the oil supply so as to drive up prices. This has been widely documented.

why waste a trillion dollars on this war when their biggest supplier is next door? venezuela is a better option than iraq also

Not so easy to invade Venezuela though, was it? But this is why they participtaed in the overthrow of Chavez not too long ago, and why there is so much anto venezuela rhetoric on the msm.

do you think all countries oil industries are operated by the domestic companies and it is a closed industry to outsiders, i'll give you a clue here, the answer is no

???

Where have I ever suggested this?

look at mexico who are one of the few who have a closed shop, they produce next to nothing compared to wht they could because of lack of technology from outside countries (US) and high taxation by the govt

as above

this law if anything will allow iraq to make more money from the oil

as per my 1st point

look at oil industry technology and where the majority of the companies are based that allow us to drill for oil, where do we go to to get rigs to drill for this oil? where do we go for the drilling technology and the completion technology?

Halliburton, Bechtel etc.

unfortunately i know a lot of things about 911, for instance i knew the top deck in tower two was not powered down when scott claimed it was

Again, what a fount of knowledge you are! You know more about the exploitation of the Iraqi oil industry than the people workig in the Iraqi oil industry; and you know more about te happenings in a place far far away from you, than someone who was actually there. You are clearly the intelligent one here.
 
it is part of the gulf

does it have the 2nd largest proven reserves in the world? i told you not to get into this cause you are going to be wrong a lot of times

at least do some research before spouting this claim

the US were already in saudi which has the largest proven reserves in conventional oil, why waste all that time, lives and money for iraq's

remember proven in this case is not so clear as proven in a court of law
Youre a good one matey

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/irqindx.htm

Iraq has the world’s second largest proven oil reserves

ROFL

Oh, and just so everyone can see the rest, and we can put this stupid debate to bed

According to oil industry experts, new exploration will probably raise Iraq’s reserves to 200+ billion barrels of high-grade crude, extraordinarily cheap to produce. The four giant firms located in the US and the UK have been keen to get back into Iraq, from which they were excluded with the nationalization of 1972. During the final years of the Saddam era, they envied companies from France, Russia, China, and elsewhere, who had obtained major contracts. But UN sanctions (kept in place by the US and the UK) kept those contracts inoperable. Since the invasion and occupation of Iraq in 2003, everything has changed. In the new setting, with Washington running the show, "friendly" companies expect to gain most of the lucrative oil deals that will be worth hundreds of billions of dollars in profits in the coming decades. The new Iraqi constitution of 2005, greatly influenced by US advisors, contains language that guarantees a major role for foreign companies. Negotiators hope soon to complete deals on Production Sharing Agreements that will give the companies control over dozens of fields, including the fabled super-giant Majnoon. However, despite pressure from the US government and foreign oil companies, the current Iraqi government has not passed a national oil law. While regional governments angle for influence over the foreign oil contracts, most Iraqis favor continued control by a national company and the powerful oil workers union opposes de-nationalization. Iraq's political future is very much in flux, but oil remains the central feature of the political landscape

This national oil law is the one being disputed right now.

ETA- in the interests of sensible, adult debate, I am not going to get into any arguments about whether the invasion of Iraq was for oil or WMDs
 
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Lol, sorry, but you have started arguing against yourself here. My point is that Willie isnt racist. Not the other way around.

This is because he is a stereotype of a scot (harsh accent, bagpipe playing, kilt wearing, footbal fan, red headed etc), and is depicted as a unrefined, ugly, uncultured simpleton

how is that a pejorative stereotype, a lot of scots are like that? it is not pejorative at all and you claimed it was? one character does not mean they are trying to depict all scots as the same as willie

why did you bring the simpsons into it as a comparison, willie and borat are completely different? one is racist and bigotted and one is "apparently" a pejorative stereotype?

is this not what i claimed about borat?

or is saying racist or bigotted things about jews, women, gays or kazahks not racist or bigotted, i notice you avoided that question again

do you think i should use the chinese remark when i fly over there later next month? see if they think it is racist?
 
Do you think we should show him all the docs about the CIA's activities in Venezuela (organising the coup against Chavez etc) to show how easy that kind of thing is to expose, or let him try to dig it up himself?
CIA docs arent MSM.

duh!
 
how is that a pejorative stereotype, a lot of scots are like that? it is not pejorative at all and you claimed it was? one character does not mean they are trying to depict all scots as the same as willie

How is being portrayed as a boorish, unrefined, menial, ugly simpleton pejorative? I'll let you work that one out.

The stereotyping comes from the stereotypical scottish characteristics he is imputed with that I mentioned b4

why did you bring the simpsons into it as a comparison, willie and borat are completely different? one is racist and bigotted and one is "apparently" a pejorative stereotype?

Dont you realise how badly your ridiculous comments are stacking up? Now you ae denying that Borat is a pejorative stereotype?

Think before you post.

or is saying racist or bigotted things about jews, women, gays or kazahks not racist or bigotted, i notice you avoided that question again

The 1st 3 are racist in the sensible term of the word- racism as a social taboo. To be racist about Kazakhs, New Zealanders, or Guyanese is not "racist" in the sensible sense of the word, because no one cares.

do you think i should use the chinese remark when i fly over there later next month? see if they think it is racist?

No, since that would be a deliberate provocations.

Actually, go ahead- give it a try!
 
mjd1982 said:
Good. So you can write to Amy Goodman and tell her that shes wrong. Oh, and write to the thousands of Iraqi oil workers who disagree with you too

what they think will happen and what will happen is different, it is also different to what you think will happen, if i was them and did not know the full facts then i would be unhappy too



I said steal the oil wealth, not the oil. Big difference. They are suppressing the oil supply so as to drive up prices. This has been widely documented

no they are not, the terrorists and the security situation is affecting the oil supply, also the lack of infrastructure for the industry, the oil does not just flow to the surface itself

if they put in technology to help they are stealing, if they dont the are suppressing supply, it cant be both for the truthers



Not so easy to invade Venezuela though, was it? But this is why they participtaed in the overthrow of Chavez not too long ago, and why there is so much anto venezuela rhetoric on the msm.

i see you completely missed the canada reference, why do you need to invade to control? only in truther logic, they control large portions of the uk oil and gas but did they invade to get this?



so it is not unusual for american companies to create great wealth from other countries oil industries? if not unusual then why is this an issue here?



as above

as per my 1st point

which was us stealing wealth?? not creating more wealth for iraq?

Halliburton, Bechtel etc.
so sadly far off the mark here it is unreal, typical truther who sees the oil industry as halliburton cause cheney is there, look a little further

Again, what a fount of knowledge you are! You know more about the exploitation of the Iraqi oil industry than the people workig in the Iraqi oil industry; and you know more about te happenings in a place far far away from you, than someone who was actually there. You are clearly the intelligent one here.

for exploitation insert stimulation

with no investment there is no oil industry sufficient to get the wealth it deserves, the americans have companies (not just halliburton) who will invest in the industry in iraq and make it wealthy, do investors invest on the promise of no returns?

i have been there actually and have also been in saudi and bahrain recently as well on oil industry business, foot in mouth mate
 
Right, except that you had the secretary of defense, the deputy secretary of defense, the under secretary of defense, Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, plus the chairman of the Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, all members of PNAC.

Chin up.
Irrelevant. It would make sense to have people who know how the defense department works to advise them. This does not prove that PNAC and the defense department are one in the same or that the military would automatically adopt the PNAC's design.
So prior to the war in iraq the US had hegemony over Iraq.

Duh!
Hmm, two no-fly zones, can attack at any time and Saddam's decision to allow inspectors back in were directly linked to our preparation for attack, sometimes within minutes of the go - no go decision time. Yeah, I would definitely say that we had hegemony over Iraq.
Iraq is part of the Gulf region, and has the 2nd largest proven oil reserves in the world (?). Hence it is a very important part of the Gulf region.
Very true, but that is not proof that the invasion was part of the RAD design. Saddam's and Iraq were not a threat to the US hegemony in the region, so your implication that the invasion was a RAD requirement is baseless.
 

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