Was Christopher Columbus obsessed with the Bible

DOC
Yes, From our school history books we seem to get the impression that Columbus was just a great adventurer with a a talent for sailing but apparently for some reason we weren't taught that Columbus also wrote a book of Prophesies and the reason for "his" mission was quite different. (snip)

so what



Columbus Day
by Jimmie Durham, Cherokee

In school I was taught the names
Columbus, Cortez, and Pizzaro and
A dozen other filthy murderers.
A bloodline all the way to General Miles,
Daniel Boone and general Eisenhower.

No one mentioned the names
Of even a few of the victims.
But don't you remember Chaske, whose spine
Was crushed so quickly by Mr. Pizzaro's boot?
What words did he cry into the dust?

What was the familiar name
Of that young girl who danced so gracefully
That everyone in the village sang with her--
Before Cortez' sword hacked off her arms
As she protested the burning of her sweetheart?

That young man's name was Many Deeds,
And he had been a leader of a band of fighters
Called the Redstick Hummingbirds, who slowed
The march of Cortez' army with only a few
Spears and stones which now lay still
In the mountains and remember.

Greenrock Woman was the name
Of that old lady who walked right up
And spat in Columbus' face.
We must remember that, and remember
Laughing Otter the Taino who tried to stop
Columbus and who was taken away as a slave.
We never saw him again.

In school I learned of heroic discoveries
Made by liars and crooks. The courage
Of millions of sweet and true people
Was not commemorated.

Let us then declare a holiday
For ourselves, and make a parade that begins
With Columbus' victims and continues
Even to our grandchildren who will be named
In their honor.

Because isn't it true that even the summer
Grass here in this land whispers those names,
And every creek has accepted the responsibility
Of singing those names? And nothing can stop
The wind from howling those names around
The corners of the school.

Why else would the birds sing
So much sweeter here than in other lands?

from here http://www.indians.org/welker/columbu1.htm
 
Somehow I am not convinced that the civil liberties of homosexuals have been advanced by Jesus's birth and life.

Who has more civil liberties, the people in atheistic Russia and China, the people in Muslim Saudi Arabia and Iran, or the people in the mostly Christian USA and Great Britain.

I have a suspicion that the less Christian we become, the less "overall" civil liberties we will have. World History bears that out. And remember the founder of the ACLU was a Communist. Do communists have greater civil liberties??
 
Quote: DOC
Yes, From our school history books we seem to get the impression that Columbus was just a great adventurer with a a talent for sailing but apparently for some reason we weren't taught that Columbus also wrote a book of Prophesies and the reason for "his" mission was quite different. (snip)



Columbus Day
by Jimmie Durham, Cherokee

In school I was taught the names
Columbus, Cortez, and Pizzaro and
A dozen other filthy murderers.
A bloodline all the way to General Miles,
Daniel Boone and general Eisenhower.

No one mentioned the names
Of even a few of the victims.
But don't you remember Chaske, whose spine
Was crushed so quickly by Mr. Pizzaro's boot?
What words did he cry into the dust?



Yes there were some very bad things done by the Europeans just like there were some bad things done by the Indians in the Western Hemisphere like human sacrifice and cannibalism.

Jefferson described the Indians who helped the British during the Revolutionary War in a letter to Messrs. Carmichael and Short:

They {Indians} waged it {their effort in the Rev. War} in their usual cruel manner murdering and scalping men, woman, and children, indiscriminately burning their houses and devastating the country.

The Writings of Thomas Jefferson.
_____

One thing you can say about the European explorers. Because of them there is no more human sacrifice and cannilbalism going on and very little warfare in the Western Hemisphere.

Cannibalism
James W. Dow

Reprinted from Encyclopedia of Latin American History and Culture, Vol. 1. Barbara A. Tenenbaum, ed. Pp. 535-537. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons

CANNIBALISM, the practice of eating the flesh or other parts of the human body. There is no doubt that some Indian tribes of Latin America practiced cannibalism in one form or another well into the twentieth century. Because it was abhorrent to Europeans, cannibalism became a pretext for attacking Indians, who soon became wary of talking about it, and the custom has been gradually disappearing. It was reported most frequently in the tropical lowlands of South America and in the Circum-Caribbean region, but was not confined to these areas. Human sacrifice and cannibalism were widely practiced in Columbia before the Conquest.

http://personalwebs.oakland.edu/~dow/personal/papers/cannibal/cannibal.html
 
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Who has more civil liberties, the people in atheistic Russia and China, the people in Muslim Saudi Arabia and Iran, or the people in the mostly Christian USA and Great Britain.
You're forgetting the civil liberties in mostly-Christian sub-Saharan Africa.

I have a suspicion that the less Christian we become, the less "overall" civil liberties we will have.
The reverse actually. The stronger the Church was the less civil liberties people had. Think 'Middle Ages'. Think 'serfdom'. Think 'people moved to the Americas to escape persecution in Europe'. Think 'Roe vs Wade'. And you can count on some (but certainly not all) Christian groups to fight hard against attempts to improve civil liberties, whether it be for homosexuals today or for slaves 200 years ago. Your correlation of liberties and Christianity is incorrect.
 
Yes there were some very bad things done by the Europeans just like there were some bad things done by the Indians in the Western Hemisphere like human sacrifice and cannibalism.

The Indians were doing bad things to each other to satisfy their bloodthirsty gods just like the Europeans were doing bad things (burning each other at the stake) to satisfy their own bloodthirsty God.
Therefore it's okay for the Europeans in the name of their bloodthirsty God to exterminate the Indians (who had not done anything to the Europeans). This must be what is meant by "divine" justice.

Jefferson described the Indians who helped the British during the Revolutionary War in a letter to Messrs. Carmichael and Short:

They {Indians} waged it {their effort in the Rev. War} in their usual cruel manner murdering and scalping men, woman, and children, indiscriminately burning their houses and devastating the country.

The Writings of Thomas Jefferson.
_____

Oh, now I see. An alleged atrocity against Europeans almost three centuries after Columbus justifies his genocide against the Tainos. It all makes perfect sense.
Just like civilian deaths in the invasion and occupation of Iraq justify 9/11. Retroactive justice between cultures is a wonderful thing, ain't it?

One thing you can say about the European explorers. Because of them there is no more human sacrifice and cannilbalism going on and very little warfare in the Western Hemisphere.

Yes, the five hundred years of peace and tranquility in the Western Hemisphere, interrupted by the occasional blip like the War between the States and World Wars One and Two, is all due to those peace-loving, Christian European explorers.

Cannibalism
James W. Dow

Reprinted from Encyclopedia of Latin American History and Culture, Vol. 1. Barbara A. Tenenbaum, ed. Pp. 535-537. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons

CANNIBALISM, the practice of eating the flesh or other parts of the human body. There is no doubt that some Indian tribes of Latin America practiced cannibalism in one form or another well into the twentieth century. Because it was abhorrent to Europeans, cannibalism became a pretext for attacking Indians, who soon became wary of talking about it, and the custom has been gradually disappearing. It was reported most frequently in the tropical lowlands of South America and in the Circum-Caribbean region, but was not confined to these areas. Human sacrifice and cannibalism were widely practiced in Columbia before the Conquest.

http://personalwebs.oakland.edu/~dow/personal/papers/cannibal/cannibal.html

I've heard we taste like chicken.


*P.S.* Sorry to butt in, gypsey. That Cherokee poem you quoted is one of the most moving things I have ever read.
 
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Who has more civil liberties, the people in atheistic Russia and China, the people in Muslim Saudi Arabia and Iran, or the people in the mostly Christian USA and Great Britain.

and The Netherlands is less Christian than the U.S. and has more civil liberties.

I have a suspicion that the less Christian we become, the less "overall" civil liberties we will have. World History bears that out. And remember the founder of the ACLU was a Communist. Do communists have greater civil liberties??

I had a hard time understanding your reasoning until I remembered that you consider the ACLU to be an organization that limits civil liberities.

I think any progress in this discussion will be limited by your insistence that any "facts" cited by Christian writers are unimpeachable and any facts cited by secularists are inherently suspect.
 
and The Netherlands is less Christian than the U.S. and has more civil liberties.



I had a hard time understanding your reasoning until I remembered that you consider the ACLU to be an organization that limits civil liberities.

I think any progress in this discussion will be limited by your insistence that any "facts" cited by Christian writers are unimpeachable and any facts cited by secularists are inherently suspect.
Don't forget that attrocities committed by christians don't count because
1.) they weren't "true christians.
2.) The people who were on the receiving end deserved it because someone claimed that some of them did bad stuff too.
 
DOC Quote: DOC
Yes, From our school history books we seem to get the impression that Columbus was just a great adventurer with a a talent for sailing but apparently for some reason we weren't taught that Columbus also wrote a book of Prophesies and the reason for "his" mission was quite different. (snip)




Yes there were some very bad things done by the Europeans just like there were some bad things done by the Indians in the Western Hemisphere like human sacrifice and cannibalism.

Jefferson described the Indians who helped the British during the Revolutionary War in a letter to Messrs. Carmichael and Short:

They {Indians} waged it {their effort in the Rev. War} in their usual cruel manner murdering and scalping men, woman, and children, indiscriminately burning their houses and devastating the country.

The Writings of Thomas Jefferson.
_____

One thing you can say about the European explorers. Because of them there is no more human sacrifice and cannilbalism going on and very little warfare in the Western Hemisphere.

Cannibalism
James W. Dow

Reprinted from Encyclopedia of Latin American History and Culture, Vol. 1. Barbara A. Tenenbaum, ed. Pp. 535-537. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons

CANNIBALISM, the practice of eating the flesh or other parts of the human body. There is no doubt that some Indian tribes of Latin America practiced cannibalism in one form or another well into the twentieth century. Because it was abhorrent to Europeans, cannibalism became a pretext for attacking Indians, who soon became wary of talking about it, and the custom has been gradually disappearing. It was reported most frequently in the tropical lowlands of South America and in the Circum-Caribbean region, but was not confined to these areas. Human sacrifice and cannibalism were widely practiced in Columbia before the Conquest.

http://personalwebs.oakland.edu/~dow.../cannibal.html

wow you really are a clueless jerk, quite a few tsalagi were eaten by the invaders it's true they were called "long pig" there was never any cannabalism on our part

Indian tribes of Latin America

It was reported most frequently in the tropical lowlands of South America and in the Circum-Caribbean region, but was not confined to these areas. Human sacrifice and cannibalism were widely practiced in Columbia before the Conquest.

this has exactly what to do with my people ?? these tribes are not connected to us in any way unless you go back in time so far that all peoples were near kin
 
blobru
Originally Posted by DOC
Yes there were some very bad things done by the Europeans just like there were some bad things done by the Indians in the Western Hemisphere like human sacrifice and cannibalism.
The Indians were doing bad things to each other to satisfy their bloodthirsty gods just like the Europeans were doing bad things (burning each other at the stake) to satisfy their own bloodthirsty God.
Therefore it's okay for the Europeans in the name of their bloodthirsty God to exterminate the Indians (who had not done anything to the Europeans). This must be what is meant by "divine" justice.


Quote:
Jefferson described the Indians who helped the British during the Revolutionary War in a letter to Messrs. Carmichael and Short:

They {Indians} waged it {their effort in the Rev. War} in their usual cruel manner murdering and scalping men, woman, and children, indiscriminately burning their houses and devastating the country.

The Writings of Thomas Jefferson.
_____
Oh, now I see. An alleged atrocity against Europeans almost three centuries after Columbus justifies his genocide against the Tainos. It all makes perfect sense.
Just like civilian deaths in the invasion and occupation of Iraq justify 9/11. Retroactive justice between cultures is a wonderful thing, ain't it?


Quote:
One thing you can say about the European explorers. Because of them there is no more human sacrifice and cannilbalism going on and very little warfare in the Western Hemisphere.
Yes, the five hundred years of peace and tranquility in the Western Hemisphere, interrupted by the occasional blip like the War between the States and World Wars One and Two, is all due to those peace-loving, Christian European explorers.


Quote:
Cannibalism
James W. Dow

Reprinted from Encyclopedia of Latin American History and Culture, Vol. 1. Barbara A. Tenenbaum, ed. Pp. 535-537. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons

CANNIBALISM, the practice of eating the flesh or other parts of the human body. There is no doubt that some Indian tribes of Latin America practiced cannibalism in one form or another well into the twentieth century. Because it was abhorrent to Europeans, cannibalism became a pretext for attacking Indians, who soon became wary of talking about it, and the custom has been gradually disappearing. It was reported most frequently in the tropical lowlands of South America and in the Circum-Caribbean region, but was not confined to these areas. Human sacrifice and cannibalism were widely practiced in Columbia before the Conquest.

http://personalwebs.oakland.edu/~dow.../cannibal.html
I've heard we taste like chicken.


*P.S.* Sorry to butt in, gypsey. That Cherokee poem you quoted is one of the most moving things I have ever read.

don't be sorry he is not going to listen any way due to his faulty knowledge so jump in any time:D i always heard we tasted like pork :p
that poem was sent to me by a cousin who lives on the res in nc and i also think it is very moving
 
I may be wrong, but wasn't it the Americans who started the practice of scalping, in order to prove how many Indians they'd killed for the bounty?
 
There was no Columbus... His name was Cristofan Colon which loosely translated means "A Pillar in the path of Christ" in Portuguese.
It is presumed that it was an assumed name, created to disguise his illegitimate origins as the bastard son of a Nobleman, speculation under scrutiny as we speak says his real name was Salvador and that he was born in Cuba, Portugal... The Italian Pope at the time addresses him in letters in Portuguese by his Portuguese name of Cristofan, There is no record of him ever having been to Italy/Genoa, 16 Towns in Italy claim to be his birth place.
It is believed that he had maps of America before he ever left, the 1425 Maps of NewfoundLand where the Portuguese fished for Cod (bacalhau) named the two Islands as Antilhas (Before Land/Abreast Mainland), he was a terrible sailor and was miles off course. He also makes mention of Brasil, it is believed that the Portuguese had encountered South America in their efforts to cross the Cape of Good Hope years earlier... Not all exploration by the Portuguese was done in the Kings name, many Private interest efforts lead the way...
History is an ass, and this tale is no less credible than that which you may understand to be factual, in any case, don't let truth get in the way of a good story (Australian adage).
 
The Indians were doing bad things to each other to satisfy their bloodthirsty gods just like the Europeans were doing bad things (burning each other at the stake) to satisfy their own bloodthirsty God.
Therefore it's okay for the Europeans in the name of their bloodthirsty God to exterminate the Indians (who had not done anything to the Europeans). This must be what is meant by "divine" justice.

Yes, but the Church has a history of learning from its mistakes. If the quasi-Christian explorers never came to the Western Hemisphere I have a feeling things wouldn't be as peaceful in the Western Hemisphere as they are today.


blobru said:
I've heard we taste like chicken.


And cannibalism would probably be going on too. I don't know about the human sacrifice.
 
Yes, but the Church has a history of learning from its mistakes. If the quasi-Christian explorers never came to the Western Hemisphere I have a feeling things wouldn't be as peaceful in the Western Hemisphere as they are today.

And cannibalism would probably be going on too. I don't know about the human sacrifice.

Well there's no cannibalism in my ancestry, so dodged a bullet there, eh?

Where exactly did you get your information on native american culture? How could you possibly come to that conclusion? What the hell is wrong with your brain? Next time I'm on the res I'll be sure to inform everyone that the genocide was for the best - it all worked out, right? We should be thankful!
 
Who has more civil liberties, the people in atheistic Russia and China, the people in Muslim Saudi Arabia and Iran, or the people in the mostly Christian USA and Great Britain.

I have a suspicion that the less Christian we become, the less "overall" civil liberties we will have. World History bears that out. And remember the founder of the ACLU was a Communist. Do communists have greater civil liberties??

Christian rule has been historically just as repressive. It wasn't until the establishment of secular governments that we began to see the freedoms you speak of in mostly Christian nations.
 
There was no Columbus... His name was Cristofan Colon which loosely translated means "A Pillar in the path of Christ" in Portuguese.


If that's true, I wonder what secular humanist organization decided the American student wouldn't be taught that.
 
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If that's true, I wonder what secular humanist organization decided the American student wouldn't be taught that.

What?!

And I wonder whether you have any evidence that any single organization, secular humanist or otherwise, made any such decision.

Personally, I doubt it.
 

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