It's just a coincidence!!!

[-Fran-]

You and me both. And I happen to actually appreciate woo (in some ways) since I have seen it do wonders for the mental health of people. People who are depressed, confused and so on often go to woo in order to find comfort. As my old religion teacher said: "you get butter when you die - it's better that way." (free translation - fran might appreciate the original: Du får smör när du dör." )

I see a lot of woo as just that: comfort in hard times. The end justify the means, and if no one is hurt or fooled, I don't have a problem with people believing in ghosts, UFOs or Village People.

I agree with you to a certain extent. There's no doubt that woo definitely can, and very often do have this comforting effect. I mean, it is probably one of the main reasons that it is such a big movement in the first place. People obviously have a need for comfort and obviously woo provides it.

However, I think many people, including many skeptics, underestimates the risks of this. There are risks in using a comfort blanket as an adult, especially one which is so without substance. It's not that I can't understand it, it's not like I haven't wished I could believe in this and that so that I would feel better when times has been hard. But for me it would do even more damage in the end if I put my trust in something that is false. Yes, people who trust in woo might be happy and feel safe, but only as long as nothing challenges their woo, and since woo is not real, that must happen sooner or later.

Many Christian woos for example live happily until they can no longer ignore the many contradictions of the bible and eventually it lands them in a full blown life crisis and a deep depression that could end really bad. They have found out that what they base their whole life on doesn't hold up anymore. It's good for them if they get through it, they will live even better lives. But to me it seems as such an unecessary crisis to have to go through. Life provides us with enough troubles to deal with as it is.

Most woos handle this by sticking their heads in the sand though - which can't be good for you in the end either, and is no way for a peson to live a life, you might miss out on many more things than just the criticism of your pet woo

So, I would say that; to keep using proverbs about edible stuff; using woo as a comfort blanket might in the end 'cost more than it tastes' (det kostar mer än det smakar) the day you discover that there will, in fact, be no 'butter when you die'

Lastly, this is what I think, but I don't think that it's my job to rob people of their comfort blankets. It's their choises and their lives. I almost always only speak my mind here on the forum, and I will not "sugar coat" it if someone comes here with woo claims and I feel like replying. But I would never seek people out with this intent. I'm a 'live and let live' kind of person, and I rarely discuss, and never tries to win over my wooish friends or relatives for example. People ask me, and I will be honest with what I think about it all, but apart from that, I don't bang people over the head with my opinions

ETA
Hey I thought the Village People were real? Now I feel a deep depression coming on, how can I live in a world without them

 

[Warge]

Since I'm bored and hungry like hell, I'll oppose that even if I do in some ways agree:

However, I think many people, including many skeptics, underestimates the risks of this. There are risks in using a comfort blanket as an adult, especially one which is so without substance. It's not that I can't understand it, it's not like I haven't wished I could believe in this and that so that I would feel better when times has been hard. But for me it would do even more damage in the end if I put my trust in something that is false. Yes, people who trust in woo might be happy and feel safe, but only as long as nothing challenges their woo, and since woo is not real, that must happen sooner or later.

Not necessarily. Many people live their entire lives happily embracing God or Santa Claus or whatever. Viktor Frankl writes about this in the first part in his book about how he survived Auschwitz (the second part is how he looks upon therapy and sucks IMO): it was belief that kept many prisoners alive, and I also think there are surveys showing that religious people are often more healthy, happier and lives longer (if anyone could find sources to this I would be grateful). Can't say how it is for other types of woo though. To get back to Frankl and his experiences in the concentration camp: there you have a real example of a situation where the faith is tested.

Many Christian woos for example live happily until they can no longer ignore the many contradictions of the bible and eventually it lands them in a full blown life crisis and a deep depression that could end really bad. They have found out that what they base their whole life on doesn't hold up anymore. It's good for them if they get through it, they will live even better lives. But to me it seems as such an unecessary crisis to have to go through. Life provides us with enough troubles to deal with as it is.

My experience of Christians is that they tend to disregard contradictions and logical holes and if the errors are pointed out, the believer will simply disregard that too. Believers are often blind in that sense.

Most woos handle this by sticking their heads in the sand though - which can't be good for you in the end either, and is no way for a peson to live a life, you might miss out on many more things than just the criticism of your pet woo

I kind of agree with you - however, it's your opinion that it's not a good way to live a life. If they are happy believing the rubbish printed in the bible, they probably live a good life. I could never live as a vegetarian, but there are people who do and feel well.

So, I would say that; to keep using proverbs about edible stuff; using woo as a comfort blanket might in the end 'cost more than it tastes' (det kostar mer än det smakar) the day you discover that there will, in fact, be no 'butter when you die'

Strictly speaking, when that day comes, they won't be able to tell the difference anyway...

Lastly, this is what I think, but I don't think that it's my job to rob people of their comfort blankets. It's their choises and their lives. I almost always only speak my mind here on the forum, and I will not "sugar coat" it if someone comes here with woo claims and I feel like replying. But I would never seek people out with this intent. I'm a 'live and let live' kind of person, and I rarely discuss, and never tries to win over my wooish friends or relatives for example. People ask me, and I will be honest with what I think about it all, but apart from that, I don't bang people over the head with my opinions

Couldn't agree more. You aren't married, are you?

ETA
Hey I thought the Village People were real? Now I feel a deep depression coming on, how can I live in a world without them

That they don't exist is MY reality...

ETA: The name of Frankl's book is Man's Search for Meaning . An Introduction to Logotherapy (for fran and other Swedes: Livet måste ha mening). Not the best book to read, but still quite interesting.

 

[Tumblehome]

I was going to start a "coincidence" thread for the same reason, to show that everyone has coincidences and they don't mean a thing, but I see Fran beat me to it. Anyway, here's my contribution.

I used to work for a local TV station that was affiliated with a radio station as well. Near the end of a particularly hard day, my partner collapsed into a chair and said, "I just want to fall into a bathtub full of whisky." That reminded me of a song I used to hear as a boy, Campbellton Loch by Scottish singer Andy Stewart. After 15 or 20 years, I could still sing the refrain for him:

"Campbellton Loch, I wish you were whisky,
I would drink you dry."
​

A while later, we had to go to the supply room, which was was also the repository of all the records that the radio station didn't play anymore. Thousands of 45 rpm records in cardboard sleeves filled the shelves. As we were walking down an aisle, I casually picked one cardboard sleeve out just to see what the record was.

I remember the label--Capitol--because it had the same yellow and orange swirl pattern as the Beatles 45's. But this wasn't by the Beatles. It was Campbellton Loch by Andy Stewart.

My partner said I looked like I'd seen a ghost. I was a bit shocked by it, but being a true skeptic, I knew it was just a coincidence.

But I've been living in fear ever since...

 

[-Fran-]

Since I'm bored and hungry like hell, I'll oppose that even if I do in some ways agree:

Get a bit to eat! Discussing things on this forum on an empty stomach can result in a fatality, I am sure

Not necessarily. Many people live their entire lives happily embracing God or Santa Claus or whatever.

I do agree with this, no doubt it is like this. That's why I talked of people sticking their heads in the sand. Some DO succeed with this sand-sticking their whole lives, yes, no doubt about that. Good for them, I guess...

Viktor Frankl writes about this in the first part in his book about how he survived Auschwitz (the second part is how he looks upon therapy and sucks IMO): it was belief that kept many prisoners alive,

I don't doubt this either. And in extreme situations like this I would of course not judge their beliefs.

I never judge people's belief for that matter Unless they try to shove them down my throat, in which case I am not a very nice person, believe me But other than that, I am really a much more shy and mild person in reality than I might appear on here. This forum is my outlet

and I also think there are surveys showing that religious people are often more healthy, happier and lives longer (if anyone could find sources to this I would be grateful). Can't say how it is for other types of woo though. To get back to Frankl and his experiences in the concentration camp: there you have a real example of a situation where the faith is tested.

Here I do dissagree a bit though. I don't think there are any evidence for that believers in general are happier or more content with their life than skeptics are. I've seen similar surveys, but the ones I saw was made by Christian churches, so I didn't trust them much Besides look at people like Carola, I think I could live without that "crazy-shine-in-their-never-blinking-eyes-happiness" that some Christians have going on - that seems like it is bordering more on hysteria than real happiness to me

In my personal experience, I have met several, Christians for example, who really wasn't feeling very well, some were clinically depressed even. I've met Christians who suffers from panic attacks and eat anti-depressives. A friend of mine is the biggest newage wooist I've ever met, she is also constantly neurotic and there's never an end to her problems as she relates it to me.

And I would say that when a woo person really gets depressed (for reasons other than discovering their woo is a fake, I mean) they also have to deal with the added burden that they are not supposed to feel this way. Since religion and other sorts of woo should make you forever happy, they, on top of everything else, also feel a tremendous guilt just for feeling the way they do. Skeptics realize that life can't be one long happy walk on roses, but many woos think they have sinned when they don't manage to keep their mood up.

Besides there are types of depressions that are really a chemical imbalance in your head, and anyone can get those. Newage people and religious people, are not allowed to though it seems

The concentration camp example is interesting, but the premises so extreme that I don't really think it can be applied to the every day life woos and skeptics that we are talking about here.

My experience of Christians is that they tend to disregard contradictions and logical holes and if the errors are pointed out, the believer will simply disregard that too. Believers are often blind in that sense.

Absolutely, this is what most of them do, yes. In my personal opinion this is no way to live a life, no, but to each their own...

I kind of agree with you - however, it's your opinion that it's not a good way to live a life.

It's just my opinion, yes, that's true. My basis, though, for why I don't consider it a good life, is that while you stick your head in the sand to avoid getting challenged about the woo that makes you so content in life, you also miss out on a numerous other things. But, that that is a bad thing is just my opinion too, I guess

If they are happy believing the rubbish printed in the bible, they probably live a good life. I could never live as a vegetarian, but there are people who do and feel well.

Yeah, I agree, that's why I am not the kind of person who pulls comfort blankets out of people's hands (not intentionally anyway) If you are to do that, you really also have to be prepared to take the responsibility for the consequenses. But I am stubborn here on the part where I said that IF their woo really gets seriously challenged, their fall will be so much greater! They had comfort blankets, yes, but did they have security nets? And it does happen. This forum only is full of people who are ex-woos, and who can witness about how hard it was for them to give it up, and how much it cost them.

Strictly speaking, when that day comes, they won't be able to tell the difference anyway...

That's true If they manage to not come up for air out of the sand before they die, yes!

See? We do agree on most things, I think, just disagreeing on minor details

Couldn't agree more. You aren't married, are you?

I am very un-married. Or rather, I am single, which is a state I am prepared to change for the right person Marriage in itself though, I am against on principle, and I wouldn't marry unless it was a shotgun-wedding and the shotgun was aimed at me

That they don't exist is MY reality...

lol, maybe it is for the best that they don't

ETA: The name of Frankl's book is Man's Search for Meaning . An Introduction to Logotherapy (for fran and other Swedes: Livet måste ha mening). Not the best book to read, but still quite interesting.

Thanks for the tip. I think it do sounds interesting.

 

[-Fran-]

I was going to start a "coincidence" thread for the same reason, to show that everyone has coincidences and they don't mean a thing, but I see Fran beat me to it. Anyway, here's my contribution.

I used to work for a local TV station that was affiliated with a radio station as well. Near the end of a particularly hard day, my partner collapsed into a chair and said, "I just want to fall into a bathtub full of whisky." That reminded me of a song I used to hear as a boy, Campbellton Loch by Scottish singer Andy Stewart. After 15 or 20 years, I could still sing the refrain for him:

"Campbellton Loch, I wish you were whisky,
I would drink you dry."
​

A while later, we had to go to the supply room, which was was also the repository of all the records that the radio station didn't play anymore. Thousands of 45 rpm records in cardboard sleeves filled the shelves. As we were walking down an aisle, I casually picked one cardboard sleeve out just to see what the record was.

I remember the label--Capitol--because it had the same yellow and orange swirl pattern as the Beatles 45's. But this wasn't by the Beatles. It was Campbellton Loch by Andy Stewart.

My partner said I looked like I'd seen a ghost. I was a bit shocked by it, but being a true skeptic, I knew it was just a coincidence.

But I've been living in fear ever since...

Fear not! You were blessed with a nice coincidence!

 

[Warge]

@fran: I think we can agree on agreeing...

But generally speaking, I find the entire matter quite interesting and boiling down to the natural tendency to organize and find meaning in everything, especially when chaos reigns. It also contain the subconscious tendency to do, see and find what seems most familiar, safe and interesting.

For example, I love Stephen King - can't get enough of his books. Therefore, it is much more likely that I will see his name, his book titles or anything else regarding him than someone not interested in Stephen King. If I would browse through a person register over Bangor, Maine, I'd find Stephen King quicker than the uninterested one.

It doesn't have to be that dramatic however. Whenever we are in certain situations, we tend to find it everywhere. Pregnant women can testify that when their belly began growing, they see pregnant women everywhere; if we are hungry, we are more likely to smell food or see food.

So in short, this is just basic psychology.

 

[Cuddles]

Does anyone feel the same way?

The skeptics here seem to fall mostly into two general groups, those who used to believe or have been personally affected by beliefs and those who just find certain subjects interesting (not mutually exclusive groups of course). You certainly shouldn't feel alone, there are plenty of us here that just like to know things.

In fact, it's an important difference between believers and skeptics. Believers often accuse skeptics of dismissing ideas because they conflict with our beliefs. What they apparently fail to realise is that most of us don't care either way about most of the crap they come out with, we are simply looking at an area that we find interesting and/or amusing. While believers all get their knickers in a twist about people questioning their beliefs, most skeptics just don't have beliefs to be questioned.

 

[-Fran-]

While believers all get their knickers in a twist about people questioning their beliefs, most skeptics just don't have beliefs to be questioned.

Well said! I think that many woos simply can't percieve of a mind that does not really have any beliefs. It is beyond them how this could work. Which often means the discussions are doomed from the start, I guess.

 

[-Fran-]

@fran: I think we can agree on agreeing...

lol, yeah

But generally speaking, I find the entire matter quite interesting and boiling down to the natural tendency to organize and find meaning in everything, especially when chaos reigns. It also contain the subconscious tendency to do, see and find what seems most familiar, safe and interesting.

For example, I love Stephen King - can't get enough of his books. Therefore, it is much more likely that I will see his name, his book titles or anything else regarding him than someone not interested in Stephen King. If I would browse through a person register over Bangor, Maine, I'd find Stephen King quicker than the uninterested one.

It doesn't have to be that dramatic however. Whenever we are in certain situations, we tend to find it everywhere. Pregnant women can testify that when their belly began growing, they see pregnant women everywhere; if we are hungry, we are more likely to smell food or see food.

So in short, this is just basic psychology.

Yeah, I think the keyword is psychology, all we see around us are manifestations of human behaviour.

I've read several of King's books, but now it was many years ago I read one. I've no idea what he's up to these days. Didn't he just barely survive a serious car accident not that long ago?

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

And no matter what one think about some of the manifestations of religion, its importance when it comes to culture and history, among other things can not be disputed. Importance in itself does not say if it was a good or a bad thing, for that matter, it just says it played an important part in certain given situations. I am also very interested in the way the mind works, and the psychology of the human being, and you can't study such things without also studying the delusions.

I think that a skeptic and/or an atheist who thinks you have to stay away from everything that has to do with any sort of woo, and don't read, study and learn about the many layers of it, is wrong. I think rather few skeptics think that though. Most skeptics I have met and talked to, are rather well read in things like different sorts of woo, myth and religion. Many skeptics are also fans of fantasy and science fiction. Most of us are perfectly willing to suspend belief for a while, while reading a good SF book or watching a fantasy film.

It's funny you should say that. I was always a big fan of fantasy; I was the only kid in junior high who still wanted to listen to fairy tales and I ate up every fantasy book and every book about folklore and mythology I could (and half-believed in that stuff, too).

I used to be a casual believer in woo and I think love of fantasy made me suseptible to it. Imagination is a great quality but has a funny way of turning on you when it comes to woo- and getting you out, when you ask yourself why the FBI doesn't have a psychic task force.

Totally agree with you about importance being beyond dispute and importance not meaning if it's a good or bad thing. Alot of people seem absolutely incapable of making that distinction.

For instance, my Polish acquaintance recently complained to me about how often George Bush appears on American TV. I pointed out to him that , like it or not, he's the President of the United States of America and therefore only the single most powerful man in the world and that if the leader of the most powerful nation in the world isn't news, I don't know what is.

Well, he naturally accused me of being a typically self-centered and short-sighted American or something of that sort. I tried to explain to him that recognizing the importance of something isn't the same as being proud of it. What is so hard to understand about that? Like America or not, like it that it's the most powerful country in the world, you're fooling yourself if you think you should ignore it or downplay it's importance. My acquaintance, of course, still didn't seem to get it.

Time magazine once nominated Adolf Hitler for Person of the Century but that doesn't mean they're proud Nazis.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

You and me both. And I happen to actually appreciate woo (in some ways) since I have seen it do wonders for the mental health of people. People who are depressed, confused and so on often go to woo in order to find comfort. As my old religion teacher said: "you get butter when you die - it's better that way." (free translation - fran might appreciate the original: Du får smör när du dör." )

I see a lot of woo as just that: comfort in hard times. The end justify the means, and if no one is hurt or fooled, I don't have a problem with people believing in ghosts, UFOs or Village People.

Thank you.

You had a religion teacher, too? Let me guess, this is from when religion was still taught as a subject in public school in Sweden?

 

[-Fran-]

Thank you.

You had a religion teacher, too? Let me guess, this is from when religion was still taught as a subject in public school in Sweden?

It isn't anymore?? Religion was a subject as long as I went to school. It is meant to be teaching all major religions equally, as a historic and cultural subject, not a religious subject. Though I had one teacher in the early 80s who was a Christian and of course she could not refrain from giving Christianity special treatment, and basically just skimming the other religions because she had too. I really hated that. Even as a kid, I understood she was trying to indoctrinate us, even if I didn't understand all the workings ot if. It just didn't feel right to me! I had so many conflicts with that woman!

Besides I was very interested in myth and religion on the whole from a very young age, and it frustrated me to no end when this teacher forced us to sing stupid psalms when there were exotic things as buddism to learn about. I remember I read through the whole textbook in religion on my own at home, since the teacher pretty much only had us open up the bible. That woman should not have been allowed to teach anything!!! Our school was very small, and we had her in several subjects, not only religion, and of course she brought Jesus into all subjects as often as she could

But I've had several teachers in religion since who was quite the opposite and took the subject seriously as an academic one, and not a chance to preach and proselytize. I loved those classes. I was the annoying kid who waved her hand constantly, "me, me, I know the answer, I know the answer..."

Well, I've never heard anything about that this subject has since been removed from the curriculum. I co-wrote a textbook in religion as late as in 2000. So then at least it was still a subject. Though I must admit that I haven't a clue what's been going on in the school world, since I stopped co-writing text books for public schools a few years back.

ETA
I had to go check that up. Religion is still a part of the public school curriculum in Sweden.

 

[-Fran-]

It's funny you should say that. I was always a big fan of fantasy; I was the only kid in junior high who still wanted to listen to fairy tales and I ate up every fantasy book and every book about folklore and mythology I could (and half-believed in that stuff, too).

Me too I still enjoy it! Fantasy and imagination are wonderful things, one only need to learn how to separate it from reality

I used to be a casual believer in woo and I think love of fantasy made me suseptible to it. Imagination is a great quality but has a funny way of turning on you when it comes to woo- and getting you out, when you ask yourself why the FBI doesn't have a psychic task force.

I think books, films, TV-shows and so on with a theme of the fantastic no doubt has its place as entertainment. It would be a boring world without it, and is nothing that I wish at all. I think people are capable of telling the difference between entertaining imaginations and reality, if given the right tools (i.e. critical thinking and so on.)

So I think that when people gets so lost in fantasy and myth that they go woo from it It's really not the fault of the books or whatever it was that presented the fantasy, but it's really a problem that started in not having been taught to use your brain in a critical and independet way. Some kids are smart, like you obviously, and teach themselves this given time.

I do wish though that media today would not so often present fantastic themes as something that is true, or could be true! They do this frequently and that annoys me immensely The show Medium is a prime example. Nothing wrong with a show like that at all (I enjoy watching it by all means) as an example of the fantastic as entertainment. But they couldn't leave it at that, could they? Oh no, they must present it as a true story and give that nut Dubois a time in the spotlight.

Totally agree with you about importance being beyond dispute and importance not meaning if it's a good or bad thing. Alot of people seem absolutely incapable of making that distinction.
For instance, my Polish acquaintance recently complained to me about how often George Bush appears on American TV. I pointed out to him that , like it or not, he's the President of the United States of America and therefore only the single most powerful man in the world and that if the leader of the most powerful nation in the world isn't news, I don't know what is.

Undoubtly it is so at this moment in history.

Though it doesn't really surprise me that people around the world have this, emotion-driven, opinion about Bush and his politics. He does come across as unbelievably arrogant to many, many people in the rest of the world. When you are indeed the most powerful leader of the most powerful nation, you must not forget that it does not equal the rest of the world having no importance. I think many people around the world feel that this is what Bush indeed have forgotten.

Well, he naturally accused me of being a typically self-centered and short-sighted American or something of that sort. I tried to explain to him that recognizing the importance of something isn't the same as being proud of it. What is so hard to understand about that? Like America or not, like it that it's the most powerful country in the world, you're fooling yourself if you think you should ignore it or downplay it's importance. My acquaintance, of course, still didn't seem to get it.

It's true yes, and I think it can also be dangerous to ignore such things.

Time magazine once nominated Adolf Hitler for Person of the Century but that doesn't mean they're proud Nazis.

Yes, some people single-handedly changed the world! Sadly not always for the better...

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I enjoy fiction of all kind. When you read or watch it, you willing suspend disbelief in order to get into the story, but it doesn't mean you ever take it as reality.

I don't like fiction that tries to pass itself off as reality somehow--like Amityville Horror and such--mostly because it just lowers the standard of what it takes to be entertaining.

I like that Dawkins points out that he's fine with celebrating Christmas. Me too, and I'm an atheist. I also have no problem using the Gregorian Calendar without being Christian. Also, it doesn't bother me that the names of the days of the week in English derive mostly from Norse gods. You definitely can't read most western literature without a pretty good knowledge of Classical mythology and the Christian bible.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Let's for a moment imagine that PEAR was conducted the way any other research lab (and didn't form a for profit corporation to sell their flimflammery). Imagine they never did arbitrary starting and stopping points. They didn't play games with the data analysis--they even made their data public. Let's imagine all that were true (which is isn't). What would you have? Evidence of an incredibly slight telekinetic power? What would that mean? In a gozillion tries you can get a pair of dice to come up with your number just barely more often than it would by chance?

That Randi's and other skeptics' belief that there is no such thing as mind-matter interactions is wrong.

You're right. In fact, it would mean the wholesale scrapping of several major branches of science.

So what do you think is more likely, that these barely measurable effects that aren't reproducible in other labs are the result of methodological errors, bias and the like, or that nearly all the rest of the sciences are fundamentally wrong?

This is why we frequently appeal to parsimony (or Occam's Razor) in evaluating these sorts of things.

Yes, the barely measurable effects could be the result of consciousness that's not based in matter. They could also be the result of tampering by mischievous deities or super-advanced space aliens. None of these is very likely though.

 

[Warge]

I've read several of King's books, but now it was many years ago I read one. I've no idea what he's up to these days. Didn't he just barely survive a serious car accident not that long ago?

[off-topic]
Yep, he was hit by a guy who didn't concentrate on the driving because his dog was trying to get into a box with meat (something that would most probably happen in a King novel as King himself pointed out - the irony) and got very badly hurt. And you have missed a lot of fun...
[/off-topic]

 

[Warge]

Thank you.

You had a religion teacher, too? Let me guess, this is from when religion was still taught as a subject in public school in Sweden?

It still is. And no it was later in an adult class when I tried to catch up on what I missed...

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Undoubtly it is so at this moment in history.

Though it doesn't really surprise me that people around the world have this, emotion-driven, opinion about Bush and his politics. He does come across as unbelievably arrogant to many, many people in the rest of the world. When you are indeed the most powerful leader of the most powerful nation, you must not forget that it does not equal the rest of the world having no importance. I think many people around the world feel that this is what Bush indeed have forgotten.

It's true yes, and I think it can also be dangerous to ignore such things.

Yeah, but this guy was suggesting George Bush and his policies shouldn't be getting so much attention, which is absolutely bonkers to me. You should know what he's doing. You can't pretend he and the nation he leads don't matter because it gets your goat that the United States is a world superpower, which was the case with this guy.

 

[Warge]

Yeah, but this guy was suggesting George Bush and his policies shouldn't be getting so much attention, which is absolutely bonkers to me. You should know what he's doing. You can't pretend he and the nation he leads don't matter because it gets your goat that the United States is a world superpower, which was the case with this guy.

Isn't this quite silly really? Of course it matters when Bush and his cronies do something. suggesting he could hide in the White House is just crazy - it'll never happen.

Even if I would like him to hide under 2 metres of dirt, but that's me...

 

[-Fran-]

Yeah, but this guy was suggesting George Bush and his policies shouldn't be getting so much attention, which is absolutely bonkers to me. You should know what he's doing. You can't pretend he and the nation he leads don't matter because it gets your goat that the United States is a world superpower, which was the case with this guy.

Yeah, I agree with you. I understand the feelings that his reasoning is probably based on, but I don't agree with the actual reasoning.

That's what I meant with that it's dangerous to ignore such things, yes. Politics and politicians should be scrutinized, and the more so, the more powerful they are. I think we shouldn't worry about the amount of attention politicians get, but if it's factual and objective enough.

Even if I would like him to hide under 2 metres of dirt, but that's me...

Isn't it kind of weird that no one has tried it? I mean, I do absolutely not condone such methods, of course, but nicer men-of-power than Bush has been assassinated...

Yep, he was hit by a guy who didn't concentrate on the driving because his dog was trying to get into a box with meat (something that would most probably happen in a King novel as King himself pointed out - the irony) and got very badly hurt. And you have missed a lot of fun...

Ahh, so that's what happened? Poor King! Well, do you have any nice recommendations?