[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

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I never fancied being a schoolteacher either. That's why I'm a vet. And have extensive experience using these i/v infusions Malcolm has such difficulty understanding. (Less familiarity with the fancy bells and whistles some people have mentioned whereby it may be possible, with the right equipment, not to need to hold the bag up, but plenty familiar with the bog-standard simple way of doing it, which is still the commonest you'll come across even in human medicine, and what you'd expect to see at an accident site.)

Malcolm, what part of They. Are. Made. Of. Flexible. Polythene. So. That. They. Collapse. Down. As. They. Empty. don't you understand?

Have you ever emptied a hot water bottle? Was there a BIG hole in the top of it?

Have you ever had a pee? Do you think there is a BIG hole in the top of your bladder?

Face it, Malcolm, ordinary gravity feed via an ordinary drip-regulated giving set is still the commonest way to administer i/v fluids, and certainly the most likely thing you'll find at an accident scene. These bags have to be held up in order to work properly. While there may be other ways to do it, and someone mentioned putting the bag under the patient's head temporarily to keep a bit of pressure on during transit, it's more lilkely than not that someone would simply hold the bag up.

That's why not a single medic or vet or paramedic or firstaider on this forum or anywhere else thinks there's anything even slightly strange about the scene.

Rolfe.
Talking about having a pee, pressure is applied.
Where is that pressure applied on a sealed bag?
The bag is sealed. Air pressure won't empty it any different three feet from the ground or six feet from the ground.
You're throwing your 'qualifications' about. I daresay some one here would call it an 'argument from authority'.
I call it attempting to win an arguement by demanding respect from a position of elitism.
Now you knowwhat I think of elitists.
So you and I will hammer this one out between us.
1. Are all IV bags gravity fed?
2. How long does it take to empty such a bag. Bearing in mind the varying rates of drip. What would be the average time for such a bag to empty?
Or are you all bark and no bite.
 
malcolm:

Sorry, but you have absolutely no knowledge of emergency medicine. In fact, if anything, you have negative knowledge. Your ignorance actually sucks the knowledge from others. I feel less knowledgeable just consdiering the comments you've made here.

The VAST MAJORITY of IVs given outside of a hospital are gravity fed. Period. Even most of those in hospitals are gravity fed through a pump. The fact that you believe this to be false just means that you have NOT spent even the MINIMAL amount of time a simple Google search would require to show how ignorant you are.

I was a military medic for 14 years, including a recent deployment into Iraq for a year. I gave IVs there. They were gravity fed, and don't have holes in the tops of bags. That's why they use bags now, instead of bottels. You don't have to have a hole. If you wonder why this matters, look up the terms "sterile technique", "blood sepsis", and "air embolis" (no, that isn't a new shoe from Nike). I've given IVs to others under varying conditions, including combat situations, emergency situations, field situations, and in a hospital setting. My brother works as a Physician's Assistant, specializing in ortho- and neuro-surgical procedures. He also uses gravity-fed IV bags, without holes in the top. A simple look at one of the major suppliers (Baxter, for example) will show the ignorance of your claim.

Pressurization is sometimes used, but rarely. It used when, for whatever reason, you can't hang a bag. In that situation, there's devices (like BP cuffs) that wrap the bag and apply pressure, or the bag can even be placed under the patients head. Sometimes pressurization is used to increase the fluid flow...but that can be dangerous as you can blow a vein (making an ugly bruise and requiring you to find a new IV site) or induce a circulatory overload (push fluid into the system faster than the body can remove it, and you can fill up the circulatory system enough that the heart can't pump).

In short, I have the knowledge of the subject; you are an ignorant, uneducated layman without even the basic decency or drive to do minimal research before spraying bovine excrement at everyone you think you can reach. You're embarassing yourself (which is somewhat humorous).

If you'd like, I can get pictures of all the equipment (I have a fully-stocked aid bag at home), and even video of a gravity-fed IV in action. Of course, you could get a clue and just walk through a hospital...you'll see plenty of gravity-fed IVs.

You won't mind joining forces with the vet then will you and we'll see who is ignorant and uneducated.
I refer you to my previous post and look forward to cleaning your clock along with the many others who slide away, either permanently or until they think the subject matter has changed sufficiently for them to have another go.
Anything but tell the truth and anything but face the truth. You remind me of someone who offered to bring on his brother who was a firefighter on the day at GZ.
That was hundreds of posts ago. I'm still waiting.
 
this post has finally convinced me that he is a plant

no-one is really so ridiculously deficient of intelligence to actually post that and mean it

i will waste no further time with this man

That's because I backed you into a corner on the previous topic.
Borrow a ladder off somebody and stick a cover over the widest pipe you can see that protrudes above the gutter line of the roof. It will be directly above the bathroom. Leave it there for some time. Then come back and tell us all about gravity feed not needing gravity.
 
I have a suggestion for an experiment to prove us all wrong.

First you need a video camera, so you can video tape yourself and show us how we are all wrong.

The items you will need is a icepick or knife to make a small hole like the hole in the bottom of the IV bag, a well sealed freezer bag full of cherry KoolAid, and a living room carpet preferably white.

You just poke a small hole in the bottom of the bag and as there is no large hole in the top to let the gravity in you prove yourself right. Post the video to youtube and show us how wrong we are.

If you have a nasty stain to clean up, well you have learned something about air pressure and hydraulics.

I refer you to my previous post.
 
You can practically throw a brick from the Pentagon to either Reagan or Dulles.

No. National is indeed very close to the Pentagon, but Dulles is not. I live near Washington; I've been by the Pentagon; I've flown in and out of National and Dulles multiple times.

I'm no medical man and will accept that 'pressurised' is the wrong word.

Good, because IV bags are not pressurized. In fact, the bag slowly collapses as the fluid is drained out.

However, the main argument is still true.

'Fraid not. It wasn't true in the first place.

There is no necessity to hold up such a bag, they are not gravity fed.

You seem to be making an unwarranted generalization from one long-ago incident. IV bags are absolutely gravity-fed.

No one remotely connected to medical work, would hold up such a bag.

5-1/2 years as a volunteer firefighter/EMT. I've spiked many an IV bag for the paramedics, including for a fair number of trauma patients. We hold up bags because they are gravity-fed. The ambulances have little flip-down hangers on the ceilings to hold the bags up above the patient. The drip sets have long tubes in part so that you can place them up above the patient.

Your claim is flatly at odds with reality.

Ergo, the pictures are staged.

In fact, even if IV bags were not gravity-fed, the sight of someone holding up it up wouldn't constitute proof of a fake. Just someone who thought that you were supposed to hold bags up. But the point is moot, since they are gravity-fed.

This is a combined post to yourself, Rolfe and any other drip feeds.
Now I remember why I never fancied being a schoolteacher.


I'm not a schoolteacher either. Just, in the context of this discussion, someone who is trained in and practices emergency medicine.

Altogether now, after me,
In order to have GRAVITY feed, you must first have GRAVITY.


... which is why the bags are held above the patient (see above)...

No BIG hole in the top of the bag = no chance for GRAVITY to act = the photo is staged.

No; as has already been pointed out, the IV bag collapses as it is used, and thus no vacuum is formed in the bag. Note that, to start the IV, we usually give the drip chamber a squeeze to form a partial vacuum, but it's still gravity-fed. We take the bag down and can lay it on the patient for a short time during transfers, but as soon as the opportunity presents itself, the bag goes back up.

The "How to set up an i/v drip" thread has similar testimony from at least one trauma nurse and one combat medic. (Edit to add: This thread has several more examples from those in the medical field.) Now that you have heard from current medical types, do you concede this point?

Join the rest of the drip feeds.
Tell me (and hello and welcome), how long on average does it take for one of those bags to empty?
ps.
Reagan is across the road from the Pentagon. You can throw a brick across a road,
Dulles is at Chantilly. Further away true. But knidly consider brevity in posts such as these. Furthermore, Dulles has a runway well away from the terminal bldg that runs east to west. I didn't know about the east west runway until I just looked at a map. That would be a rarely used runway as it ran across the normal north south approaches.
That's why Mrs Booth was greased, because she would surely query the approach line and the timing = putting two and two together. The truth just keeps rolling in.
 
Hi! I haven't stopped in here in a month or two, and I'd just like to say that I'm getting the hell out again as fast as I can cli
 
If you have posted your "proof" can you let me know what the post number is?

Just so you know. I think I would find arguments based on only those posted images to be unconvincing. The white car image is apparently focused on only a portion of the impact area without context of what's happening to the left and right out of the frame. While I may be wrong (but I don't think so :)), I found enough apparent visual landmarks that lead me to think that the actual impact point of the main fuselage must be farther to the "right" and beyond the camera frame.
Photos of the whole hole here.
 
Did I not explain this to you very much in-depth several pages ago, Malcolm? Boeing 757s are already cruise missiles and they already have installed, from the assembly line at Boeing, 3 helium-neon ring laser gyros for each axis of flight - for extremely accurate attitude and heading information as well as latitude and longitude. They also have 3 autopilot systems which can "home" any altitude/airspeed/latlong waypoint the pilot enters in the Flight Management Computer. It would be a snap to use the FMC for an attack run at the Pentagon. The only dilemma would be getting the thing in the air with no pilots(we discussed that too) - programming the attack would be the easy part. That is not speculation; that is my professional opinion.




The flyover is possibly stupidest theory in the history of mankind. The Pentagon is flanked on all sides by very busy highways, it was rush hour, it was broad daylight. In my opinion it is not possible to think a plane crashed when it didn't when you are in position to actually see either the impact or nonimpact - it's not like everyones view was obstructed. It's impossible times 100 to think that every single witness on record thought the plane crashed when it didn't. I actually can't understand how anyone would believe this....

Malcolm, if 9/11 was a conspiracy orchestrated by the government, I can promise you that a)there was a plane(maybe even a 757!) and b)it didn't fly over. It impacted the Pentagon.

Firstly, you have to agree that there is no technical difficulty in a remote controlled flight from Offutt hitting the twins. I'm not asking you to agree that happened. I'm simply askingyou to agree that there is no technical reason why it could not happen. That is a direct question and I would appreciate a direct answer.
Secondly, with regard to the Pentagon. There is no technical reason why an overflight could not be achieved. Again a direct question.
Thanking you in advance.
 
and the hots just keep on coming

Borrow a ladder off somebody and stick a cover over the widest pipe you can see that protrudes above the gutter line of the roof. It will be directly above the bathroom. Leave it there for some time. Then come back and tell us all about gravity feed not needing gravity.

This ones going to be fun i can tell. Ok kirkman. tell me what happens when you cap a vent stack over a bathroom or any other fixture for that matter?


Ok on to pole number two

And the clue is. When it is said a planes wing configuration is described as being "swept back' what do you think that means?
 
24 carat nonsense. In order for gravity to work, you need a source of GRAVITY.
Being a band of sceptics, I would expect you all to be sceptical about the OCT.
If you guys were really 'cool' sceptics, taking a pride in taking apart all claims. How come you're all so avidly pro the OCT or is it the Banksters you really support?

Malcolm..are you serious? A source of gravity? Earth has plenty of it, in fact, it's everywhere I go. I can't seem to get away from it. IV's use the effect of gravity, .I.E. The fluids are heavier than the air, so gravity has effect on them.
They flow downward since they are elevated above the patient..But there are valves in the IV line to control the flow. This is simply from observation. :boggled:
 
If you have posted your "proof" can you let me know what the post number is?

Just so you know. I think I would find arguments based on only those posted images to be unconvincing. The white car image is apparently focused on only a portion of the impact area without context of what's happening to the left and right out of the frame. While I may be wrong (but I don't think so :)), I found enough apparent visual landmarks that lead me to think that the actual impact point of the main fuselage must be farther to the "right" and beyond the camera frame.
Post No. 2958 is as close as anyone came to being pinned down on an entrance spot.
Simply pick your entrance spot, then I'll showyou hoe a 757 doing 4 or 500 mph can't even break a window.
Even Nist can't get the plane to fit without taking one engine and half the wings away.
Page 35 fig 6.1
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build03/PDF/b03017.pdf
 
Oh yes it is pole No.2.
Here is another website with photos taken from the Discovery Channel.
Are you gonna call this man, as you did Jack White?
You can clearly see pole No.2. It is sticking seemingly right out of the head of the man in the white shirt.
Then it is referenced as the first pole after the bridge. This time as a yelow dot.
It's as clear as day, there is no possible mistake.
My apologies,
This is the site.
http://911review.org/brad.com/pentagon/lightpoles/
 
The plane cut across the Reagan approach paths, safe in the knowledge that all other planes were on the ground. Did a lazy left up the Potoman, safe in the knowledge that you don't get a lot of people on the Potomac on a cold september tuesday morning when everybody is at work.
(Emphasis added.)

Just as it was not cloudy that day all along the eastern seaboard of the United States, it wasn't cold that morning, either.
 
Talking about having a pee, pressure is applied.
Where is that pressure applied on a sealed bag?
The bag is sealed. Air pressure won't empty it any different three feet from the ground or six feet from the ground.
You're throwing your 'qualifications' about. I daresay some one here would call it an 'argument from authority'.
I call it attempting to win an arguement by demanding respect from a position of elitism.
Now you knowwhat I think of elitists.
So you and I will hammer this one out between us.
1. Are all IV bags gravity fed?
2. How long does it take to empty such a bag. Bearing in mind the varying rates of drip. What would be the average time for such a bag to empty?
Or are you all bark and no bite.


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Mendocino Coast Region, California, USA

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Queensland, Australia

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Los Angeles, California, USA

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Prince George's County, Maryland, USA.

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San Diego, California, USA

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Whitfield County, Georgia, USA

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British Army
 
Join the rest of the drip feeds.
Tell me (and hello and welcome), how long on average does it take for one of those bags to empty?


Depends on what you set the flow rate at, of course. For a trauma patient, it will be set pretty fast, and the bag will empty correspondingly fast - not seconds, or a few minutes, mind you, but it won't be running for an hour.

ps.
Reagan is across the road from the Pentagon. You can throw a brick across a road,


No. National (as it is called by those of us who live around here) is roughly a kilometer from the Pentagon, and both the GW Parkway and I-395 lie between them.

Dulles is at Chantilly.

Kinda-sorta. It's really northwest of what us area locals would call Chantilly. I've worked quite a bit in both places, and us area locals call the area "Dulles", just as the post office for that area is Dulles, VA.

Further away true. But knidly consider brevity in posts such as these.

You said you could "practically throw a brick" from the Pentagon to Dulles. I can allow for hyperbole, but the two are separated by roughly twenty kilometers. That sort of assertion undermines your credibility.

I am more interested, however, in your failure to acknowledge the numerous rebuttals of your claim that IV bags are gravity-fed, made by prehospital (EMS) and hospital healthcare providers. In particular, you said
No one remotely connected to medical work, would hold up such a bag.
This claim is simply and unambiguously incorrect. In fact, every one of us who provides patient care involving IVs - at least one EMT-B (me), at least one paramedic, at least one physician, even a veterinarian, all experienced in the use of IVs - stated it is appropriate to hold up such a bag.

Furthermore, you don't need to take our word for it. You can contact any IV drip bag manufacturer and ask them directly.

Where is that pressure applied on a sealed bag?
The bag is sealed. Air pressure won't empty it any different three feet from the ground or six feet from the ground.


No, you don't understand, because you still think the bag is pressure-fed. It's not. Air pressure on the bag simply keeps a vacuum from forming inside it, by collapsing the bag as it is emptied. It's the gravitational potential difference that keeps the drip going, because the fluid in the bag is at a higher potential than the patient.

You're throwing your 'qualifications' about. I daresay some one here would call it an 'argument from authority'.

An argument from authority is valid if the authority has direct knowledge of relevant facts - in this case, our collective training and extensive experience in the use of IVs.

I call it attempting to win an arguement by demanding respect from a position of elitism.
Now you knowwhat I think of elitists.


None of my patients have called me elitist. None of the paramedics I have helped set up IVs have called me elitist. In any case, though, you are simply applying this type of argument in reverse - you insist that you, in your ignorance, must be right because of a single incident 25 years ago. Never mind the thousands of IVs we've handled; you are insisting you're right because you're not an authority. Believe me, I've seen this type of claim before.

So you and I will hammer this one out between us.
1. Are all IV bags gravity fed?


IV bags are typically used gravity-fed. We've already explained this to you in considerable detail.

2. How long does it take to empty such a bag. Bearing in mind the varying rates of drip. What would be the average time for such a bag to empty?.

Asked and answered; also irrelevant. The fact is that IV bags are generally gravity-fed, and in an MCI such as the Pentagon on 9/11/2001 they will always be held up whenever possible to provide gravity-fed flow.

Or are you all bark and no bite

Juvenile rhetorical challenges don't impress me. Are you, or are you not, willing to admit a simple error of fact?
 
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