[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

[fls]

I'm no medical man and will accept that 'pressurised' is the wrong word.
However, the main argument is still true. There is no necessity to hold up such a bag, they are not gravity fed. No one remotely connected to medical work, would hold up such a bag. Ergo, the pictures are staged.

I am a physician with tons of experience using IV's. The IV fluid depends upon pressure to go into the vein in order to overcome the pressure of the blood within. Pumps can be used, but in the field, gravity (i.e. elevation) or external pressure on the bag is used to create that pressure. It is usual and expected to hold up the IV bag. In fact, I might suspect the scene was staged if I didn't see the iv bag held up, as it would be the automatic response.

Linda

 

[Trifikas]

No, in photographs that have nothing to do with Jack White. Pole 2 can be seen both still in its original position = not hit by anything = still standing on its base. Then, in other photos, lying on the grass bank. There is no way to explain that, other than the planting of false evidence. In this case someone forgot to bring down or simply unbolt pole 2 from its base and take it away.
Conclusive proof of a fix.

Oh, I already addressed the shot of what was marked with the backwards questionmark in post #2961 - What was marked wasn't pole 2. At first I thought you could see it in post 2999, in the upper-right picture, as the one near the person with red pants, but it's more likely the left-most standing pole in that same picture.

Considering how much thinner it looks than the ones in the foreground (back to post 2961), and the one that can barely be seen through the tree (which is the one in post 2999 near the person wearing red pants), it's further back from the point of the shot than pole two's original location.

 

[Belz...]

Sleight of hand. The only eye witnesses were driving cars. Not the most conducive of circumstances for perfect observation of a two second event.

So, where did the plane go, Malcolm ?

Did it vanish in thin air ? If not, how come nobody saw it on the OTHER SIDE OF THE PENTAGON ?

I assume you know that the Pentagon has stuff on the other side, too ?

You can see two poles, both pole No.2.
One is lying on the grass bank. The other is still fixed in place.
Aint that a doosey.

So that means 9/11 was an inside job ?

Tell me, do you see any potential for upset with regard to taking over the planes?

Yes. Yes it's possible that the crew or passengers would resist, but that wasn't policy, back then. Yes, it's possible that security would stop them at the airport because of the knives, but that wasn't policy back then. Yes, it's possible that visibility might be less than perfect, but it wasn't and you can make your decision a day or two beforehand, and cancel when needed. Yes, it's possible that technical difficulties may hamper navigation, but these guys were pilots.

So are those risks so great ?

Did you not find it just a little bit funny?

We do not base our conclusions on mere suspicion brought about by minor contradictions, Malcolm.

 

[Rolfe]

Consider the phrase 'six stone hung over wastrels' as poetic license that does not alter the subject matter.

I'm inclined to consider all of your posts as "poetic licence", especially the parts about no plane hitting the Pentagon, and military bad boys from OFFUTT and jet airliners being flown by remote control like little boys with their toys up on Devil's Dyke. It seems the most charitable interpretation.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

.... drip bags are not pressurised. In any way. They can't be, they're made of flexible polythene, so that they collapse down as they empty.

This is a combined post to yourself, Rolfe and any other drip feeds.
Now I remember why I never fancied being a schoolteacher.
Altogether now, after me,
In order to have GRAVITY feed, you must first have GRAVITY.
No BIG hole in the top of the bag = no chance for GRAVITY to act = the photo is staged.

I never fancied being a schoolteacher either. That's why I'm a vet. And have extensive experience using these i/v infusions Malcolm has such difficulty understanding. (Less familiarity with the fancy bells and whistles some people have mentioned whereby it may be possible, with the right equipment, not to need to hold the bag up, but plenty familiar with the bog-standard simple way of doing it, which is still the commonest you'll come across even in human medicine, and what you'd expect to see at an accident site.)

Malcolm, what part of They. Are. Made. Of. Flexible. Polythene. So. That. They. Collapse. Down. As. They. Empty. don't you understand?

Have you ever emptied a hot water bottle? Was there a BIG hole in the top of it?

Have you ever had a pee? Do you think there is a BIG hole in the top of your bladder?

Face it, Malcolm, ordinary gravity feed via an ordinary drip-regulated giving set is still the commonest way to administer i/v fluids, and certainly the most likely thing you'll find at an accident scene. These bags have to be held up in order to work properly. While there may be other ways to do it, and someone mentioned putting the bag under the patient's head temporarily to keep a bit of pressure on during transit, it's more lilkely than not that someone would simply hold the bag up.

That's why not a single medic or vet or paramedic or firstaider on this forum or anywhere else thinks there's anything even slightly strange about the scene.

Rolfe.

 

[Hellbound]

malcolm:

Sorry, but you have absolutely no knowledge of emergency medicine. In fact, if anything, you have negative knowledge. Your ignorance actually sucks the knowledge from others. I feel less knowledgeable just consdiering the comments you've made here.

The VAST MAJORITY of IVs given outside of a hospital are gravity fed. Period. Even most of those in hospitals are gravity fed through a pump. The fact that you believe this to be false just means that you have NOT spent even the MINIMAL amount of time a simple Google search would require to show how ignorant you are.

I was a military medic for 14 years, including a recent deployment into Iraq for a year. I gave IVs there. They were gravity fed, and don't have holes in the tops of bags. That's why they use bags now, instead of bottels. You don't have to have a hole. If you wonder why this matters, look up the terms "sterile technique", "blood sepsis", and "air embolis" (no, that isn't a new shoe from Nike). I've given IVs to others under varying conditions, including combat situations, emergency situations, field situations, and in a hospital setting. My brother works as a Physician's Assistant, specializing in ortho- and neuro-surgical procedures. He also uses gravity-fed IV bags, without holes in the top. A simple look at one of the major suppliers (Baxter, for example) will show the ignorance of your claim.

Pressurization is sometimes used, but rarely. It used when, for whatever reason, you can't hang a bag. In that situation, there's devices (like BP cuffs) that wrap the bag and apply pressure, or the bag can even be placed under the patients head. Sometimes pressurization is used to increase the fluid flow...but that can be dangerous as you can blow a vein (making an ugly bruise and requiring you to find a new IV site) or induce a circulatory overload (push fluid into the system faster than the body can remove it, and you can fill up the circulatory system enough that the heart can't pump).

In short, I have the knowledge of the subject; you are an ignorant, uneducated layman without even the basic decency or drive to do minimal research before spraying bovine excrement at everyone you think you can reach. You're embarassing yourself (which is somewhat humorous).

If you'd like, I can get pictures of all the equipment (I have a fully-stocked aid bag at home), and even video of a gravity-fed IV in action. Of course, you could get a clue and just walk through a hospital...you'll see plenty of gravity-fed IVs.

 

[funk de fino]

In order to have GRAVITY feed, you must first have GRAVITY.

No BIG hole in the top of the bag = no chance for GRAVITY to act = the photo is staged.

this post has finally convinced me that he is a plant

no-one is really so ridiculously deficient of intelligence to actually post that and mean it

i will waste no further time with this man

 

[ponderingturtle]

This is a combined post to yourself, Rolfe and any other drip feeds.
Now I remember why I never fancied being a schoolteacher.
Altogether now, after me,
In order to have GRAVITY feed, you must first have GRAVITY.
No BIG hole in the top of the bag = no chance for GRAVITY to act = the photo is staged.

I have a suggestion for an experiment to prove us all wrong.

First you need a video camera, so you can video tape yourself and show us how we are all wrong.

The items you will need is a icepick or knife to make a small hole like the hole in the bottom of the IV bag, a well sealed freezer bag full of cherry KoolAid, and a living room carpet preferably white.

You just poke a small hole in the bottom of the bag and as there is no large hole in the top to let the gravity in you prove yourself right. Post the video to youtube and show us how wrong we are.

If you have a nasty stain to clean up, well you have learned something about air pressure and hydraulics.

 

[cloudshipsrule]

That's why not a single medic or vet or paramedic or firstaider on this forum or anywhere else thinks there's anything even slightly strange about the scene.

As a first responder, I concur.

 

[sts60]

You can practically throw a brick from the Pentagon to either Reagan or Dulles.

No. National is indeed very close to the Pentagon, but Dulles is not. I live near Washington; I've been by the Pentagon; I've flown in and out of National and Dulles multiple times.

I'm no medical man and will accept that 'pressurised' is the wrong word.

Good, because IV bags are not pressurized. In fact, the bag slowly collapses as the fluid is drained out.

However, the main argument is still true.

'Fraid not. It wasn't true in the first place.

There is no necessity to hold up such a bag, they are not gravity fed.

You seem to be making an unwarranted generalization from one long-ago incident. IV bags are absolutely gravity-fed.

No one remotely connected to medical work, would hold up such a bag.

5-1/2 years as a volunteer firefighter/EMT. I've spiked many an IV bag for the paramedics, including for a fair number of trauma patients. We hold up bags because they are gravity-fed. The ambulances have little flip-down hangers on the ceilings to hold the bags up above the patient. The drip sets have long tubes in part so that you can place them up above the patient.

Your claim is flatly at odds with reality.

Ergo, the pictures are staged.

In fact, even if IV bags were not gravity-fed, the sight of someone holding up it up wouldn't constitute proof of a fake. Just someone who thought that you were supposed to hold bags up. But the point is moot, since they are gravity-fed.

This is a combined post to yourself, Rolfe and any other drip feeds.
Now I remember why I never fancied being a schoolteacher.

I'm not a schoolteacher either. Just, in the context of this discussion, someone who is trained in and practices emergency medicine.

Altogether now, after me,
In order to have GRAVITY feed, you must first have GRAVITY.

... which is why the bags are held above the patient (see above)...

No BIG hole in the top of the bag = no chance for GRAVITY to act = the photo is staged.

No; as has already been pointed out, the IV bag collapses as it is used, and thus no vacuum is formed in the bag. Note that, to start the IV, we usually give the drip chamber a squeeze to form a partial vacuum, but it's still gravity-fed. We take the bag down and can lay it on the patient for a short time during transfers, but as soon as the opportunity presents itself, the bag goes back up.

The "How to set up an i/v drip" thread has similar testimony from at least one trauma nurse and one combat medic. (Edit to add: This thread has several more examples from those in the medical field.) Now that you have heard from current medical types, do you concede this point?

 

[SpitfireIX]

<snip>

Ergo, the pictures are staged.

In fact, even if IV bags were not gravity-fed, the sight of someone holding up it up wouldn't constitute proof of a fake. Just someone who thought that you were supposed to hold bags up. But the point is moot, since they are gravity-fed.

<snip>

Hi, sts60, and welcome to JREF! As phantomwolf has predicted, probably at least half of the BAUT conspiracy theories forum will be here soon.

To expand on the above point, in the photos "bagman," as Malcolm calls him, is wearing a tie and suspenders. He may have been a civilian Pentagon employee, or possibly he was a motorist who stopped to help. In any case, he's not dressed as we would expect any Pentagon medical personnel or first responders to be dressed. So he's probably just someone who was pressed into service to hold the IV bag, and wouldn't know that he didn't need to hold it up, even if that were true. Also, another reason to hold the bag up, other than allowing for the solution to be gravity fed, would merely be to keep it out of the way, and keep the line from getting tangled, caught, or stepped on. Malcolm's argument fails on three different counts. And I'll have more on "bagman" in a later post.

Oh, BTW, sts60, quoting with bold (or JayUtah-style quoting, as I sometimes call it) is frowned upon here, as I quickly discovered when I tried to use it.

 

[Rolfe]

Now that you have heard from current medical types, do you concede this point?

The sad thing is, on current form Malcolm will either completely ignore this, or shrug it off as a minor point which doesn't affect his argument. Or maybe he'll say he changed his mind, as he did after he was called on his offer to donate $1,000 to charity if he was wrong about something else. Or perhaps he'll just put it down to poetic license.

There isn't a clue bat big enough or heavy enough to get through to Malcolm. The possibility that since he's been arrogantly wrong about this point (actually about lots of points, this is just one of the ones where he's been blatantly shot down), he might be wrong about a lot of other things he thinks are so, won't even enter his head.

Oh, and he still hasn't explained how it even counts as "poetic license" to declare that all hijackers or potential hijackers weigh only six stones. I still don't follow that one. He doesn't believe there were any hijackers, and one of the reasons there weren't is that all hijackers are only six stones in weight, so of course they can't succeed. And that's why they don't try, so there aren't any.

Rolfe.

 

[SOMERLED]

I am a physician with tons of experience using IV's. The IV fluid depends upon pressure to go into the vein in order to overcome the pressure of the blood within. Pumps can be used, but in the field, gravity (i.e. elevation) or external pressure on the bag is used to create that pressure. It is usual and expected to hold up the IV bag. In fact, I might suspect the scene was staged if I didn't see the iv bag held up, as it would be the automatic response.

Linda

24 carat nonsense. In order for gravity to work, you need a source of GRAVITY.
Being a band of sceptics, I would expect you all to be sceptical about the OCT.
If you guys were really 'cool' sceptics, taking a pride in taking apart all claims. How come you're all so avidly pro the OCT or is it the Banksters you really support?

 

[fezzic]

You are wrong about the hole. That is where the fusilage went in.
I have to type out in longhand as it were, the references to the photos, then I'm acting the goat, putting one up that doesn't work etc.
If you bear with me for a while, I'll prove to you conclusively that there is only one entrance hole for the 'fusilage' and it is the one in this photo.

If you have posted your "proof" can you let me know what the post number is?

Just so you know. I think I would find arguments based on only those posted images to be unconvincing. The white car image is apparently focused on only a portion of the impact area without context of what's happening to the left and right out of the frame. While I may be wrong (but I don't think so ), I found enough apparent visual landmarks that lead me to think that the actual impact point of the main fuselage must be farther to the "right" and beyond the camera frame.

 

[CptColumbo]

You seem quite knowledgeable about the 'hijacks'. Tell me, do you see any potential for upset with regard to taking over the planes?

Asked and answered.

 

[pomeroo]

Did you not find it just a little bit funny?

Yes, the spectacle of the buffoonish charlatan Jim Fetzer attempting to peddle his snake oil to an expert in military avionics was hilarious.

 

[Myriad]

The net is closing on a daily basis,
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/24962

If by "net" you mean "the Internet," and if by "closing" you mean "having meaningless wishful speculation posted to it," then I quite agree!

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[SOMERLED]

Oh, I already addressed the shot of what was marked with the backwards questionmark in post #2961 - What was marked wasn't pole 2. At first I thought you could see it in post 2999, in the upper-right picture, as the one near the person with red pants, but it's more likely the left-most standing pole in that same picture.

Considering how much thinner it looks than the ones in the foreground (back to post 2961), and the one that can barely be seen through the tree (which is the one in post 2999 near the person wearing red pants), it's further back from the point of the shot than pole two's original location.

Oh yes it is pole No.2.
Here is another website with photos taken from the Discovery Channel.
Are you gonna call this man, as you did Jack White?
You can clearly see pole No.2. It is sticking seemingly right out of the head of the man in the white shirt.
Then it is referenced as the first pole after the bridge. This time as a yelow dot.
It's as clear as day, there is no possible mistake.

 

[SOMERLED]

So, where did the plane go, Malcolm ?

Did it vanish in thin air ? If not, how come nobody saw it on the OTHER SIDE OF THE PENTAGON ?

I assume you know that the Pentagon has stuff on the other side, too ?



So that means 9/11 was an inside job ?



Yes. Yes it's possible that the crew or passengers would resist, but that wasn't policy, back then. Yes, it's possible that security would stop them at the airport because of the knives, but that wasn't policy back then. Yes, it's possible that visibility might be less than perfect, but it wasn't and you can make your decision a day or two beforehand, and cancel when needed. Yes, it's possible that technical difficulties may hamper navigation, but these guys were pilots.

So are those risks so great ?



We do not base our conclusions on mere suspicion brought about by minor contradictions, Malcolm.

The plane cut across the Reagan approach paths, safe in the knowledge that all other planes were on the ground. Did a lazy left up the Potoman, safe in the knowledge that you don't get a lot of people on the Potomac on a cold september tuesday morning when everybody is at work. In any event should someone surface with such a claim. How long would it take to rub that person out. As Trentadue's brother was rubbed out whilst in custody.
My fingers are tingling.
Then you're landing at Dulles. Where Mrs Booth will be added to the list of 'passengers' for putting two and two together.

 

[SOMERLED]

I'm inclined to consider all of your posts as "poetic licence", especially the parts about no plane hitting the Pentagon, and military bad boys from OFFUTT and jet airliners being flown by remote control like little boys with their toys up on Devil's Dyke. It seems the most charitable interpretation.

Rolfe.

Any comments on pole No.2 ?