Derren Brown Trick or treat

[volatile]

That shows you're missing the point entirely. Such tricks are trivially accomplished using someone who's agreed in advance to act in a particular way. In this case, it's so obvious how to act along that it's hardly surprising that the subject does so, especially if they're a celebrity. The disclaimer's use of the term "stooge" is quite pointless if it merely means that the subject didn't agree to play along in advance, but may have decided to play along shortly after the performance starts.

How do you know he was a stooge? Just because you don't know how the trick was performed, doesn't mean Derren was "cheating" by using stooges!

 

[DJM]

The assistants who swapped places with Derren were clearly putting on an act, as I've explained before. Why would what they did not be classified as acting?

For the 23376373426th time, it doesn't matter if they were putting on an act, they were the ASSISTANTS in that experiment. They ASSISTED in making it work, they were NOT the ACOTRS/STOOGES he talks about in the disclaimer, because that was meant for the PARTICIPENTS in the show!!

Like I've said, the Youtubers realise it, the Derren forums realise it, my little cousin realises it, the others at this place here.. They all realise those people were not ACTORS/STOOGES, not the ones that Derren tlaks against in the disclaimer. ASSISTANTS, ASSITANTS, ASSITANTS!! It doesn't matter what they were doing, they were the ASSITANTS!!!! The only person I've seen having a problem with understaning that is YOU. How many times do we need to repeat that for you so that it could get to your head?!

An instant stooge doesn't have to be told what to do. You're just choosing unusual definitions so as to justify your statements. The point is that nothing mystifying is occurring if the person who at first seems to be merely the subject of a trick decides to play along and perform as the illusionist wants, even if not given explicit instructions.

It's obvious that you know nothing about magic, so please don't make a fool of yourself.

Instant stooge is someone that is being used for an effect that can only be 100% done using an instant stooge. The most famous instant stooge effect by Derren is The Lift that he does on his lecture video and also on one of his old shows. That effect can only done by using one. But the needle through arm is NOT an instant stooge routine, it can be done using anyone without them helping out or knowing how it works.. In fact, as Azraeli 5 said before, Derren already did a similar effect years ago when he stuck a needle on the back of someone's hand. Was she a stooge too?! Just because it worked for him?!

Like I've said, I saw a magician does the needle through arm with someone and it worked out great. Without stooges, instant stooges or anything else. So you don't need one for this, and even if Robbie decided to play along, it doesn't make him stooge/instant stooge because that's not the intention of the effect!! You can't suddenly take a term that is well known in the magic world and then change its meaning.

Was Robbie playing along in the middle of the effect? Maybe so, it happens sometimes at magic shows. Was he a stooge/instant stooge? NO, that's far from being the right definition.

So stop thinking you are so smart, because the joke would be on you.

 

[Azrael 5]

Anyway, there was no need to use a real firearm, so why would he do so? Nobody verified that it had been fired. He could use any gun, then just add a bang on the audio.

I think the person who loaded the gun who was sat in the room with Derren when he fired it would disagree about the bang.
I wonder if you just google things and dont watch them.

 

[DJM]

Isn't it obvious, that person was an instant stooge..

 

[skipjack]

I knew that, whilst he did not use actors, he did use pre-screening. It was obvious that "casting request" did not mean "request for professional actors", but "request for participants"! Please don't misrepresent my posts. Oh, and who's Helen?

I didn't misrepresent you at all. I took a literal interpretation of your statement because I had no reason to do otherwise. A simple advertisement in a local or national newspaper for participants is not normally referred to as a casting request. A casting request seeks people for a cast, i.e., a group of people who will take various parts in some show.

You didn't say initially where the advertisement was. As you called it a casting request, I didn't expect it to have been published in a newspaper. I expected it to have been published in a magazine or trade paper. I didn't say that the person you referred to was a professional actor. Even a casting request for a play or musical is not necessarily aimed exclusively at professional performers.

If your friend was not a professional actor, that doesn't imply that Derren never hires professional actors. We know that he sometimes does, as he's said during a show that actors are used in that show. Similarly, Robbie Williams was used in a show and relied on to play along with what Derren was doing, though knowing that it was just a stunt.

On Derren's show, the woman who featured handling a stone taken from a box gave her name as Helen (at least, that's what it sounded like; perhaps it was Ellen). Did you see the advertisement that your friend responded to? I'd like to know when and where it appeared and precisely what it said.

 

[volatile]

I didn't misrepresent you at all. I took a literal interpretation of your statement because I had no reason to do otherwise. A simple advertisement in a local or national newspaper for participants is not normally referred to as a casting request. A casting request seeks people for a cast, i.e., a group of people who will take various parts in some show.

FFS! I explained quite clearly that she wasn't an actress. That was the *whole point* of me posting. It was obvious what I meant.

Similarly, Robbie Williams was used in a show and relied on to play along with what Derren was doing, though knowing that it was just a stunt.

You don't know that he played along. At all. Just because you don't know how the trick was done, doesn't mean he cheated.

On Derren's show, the woman who featured handling a stone taken from a box gave her name as Helen (at least, that's what it sounded like; perhaps it was Ellen). Did you see the advertisement that your friend responded to? I'd like to know when and where it appeared and precisely what it said.

Her name's Hannah. Short, choppy hair, pierced lip. If that was the person you saw, then we're on the same wavelength. I haven't, didn't and almost certainly won't be able to see the ad she responded to. Why would it even matter?! She's *not* an actress. If Derren wanted actresses, he'd hire actresses!


Everyone else understands this.

 

[DJM]

Similarly, Robbie Williams was used in a show and relied on to play along with what Derren was doing, though knowing that it was just a stunt.

They didn't need to rely on Robbie to play along because this effect could have worked on anyone, like he did a few years ago when he put a needle on the back of someone's hand. Needle through arm is a well known effect, you don't need to rely on anyone, just on the mentalist not to screw up. Robbie wasn't meant to know the secret, and if he did suddenly realise the secret, then it's not Derren's fault. If people find out during the performance what's going on, it doesn't make them a stooge/instant stooge, it just makes then nice people who don't want to embarass the mentalist or ruin the show for everyone. (like I suppose you would do)

Why do you want us to reply to your posts if you don't even try to understand what we are telling you?! Such a waste of time.

 

[Azrael 5]

I think the person who loaded the gun who was sat in the room with Derren when he fired it would disagree about the bang.
I wonder if you just google things and dont watch them.

Just a reminder.

 

[DJM]

We need to be patient, while Jack is trying to find some new stupid things to complain about.

 

[skipjack]

I explained quite clearly that she wasn't an actress. That was the *whole point* of me posting. It was obvious what I meant.

Apparently you didn't notice that I never disagreed with that. I didn't state she was an actress or that Derren wanted an actress.

You don't know that he played along. At all. Just because you don't know how the trick was done, doesn't mean he cheated.

I do know that he played along. It was completely obvious that he did from what happened in the show. I've explained that already in this thread.

Her name's Hannah. Short, choppy hair, pierced lip. If that was the person you saw, then we're on the same wavelength.

She did say Hannah. I misheard originally, but I watched again with the volume turned up (I prefer quite low volume) and it's clearly Hannah. She had a piercing in each lip and bright mauve eye-shadow.

I haven't, didn't and almost certainly won't be able to see the ad she responded to. Why would it even matter?

Why not? Are you blind? I didn't say it matters, but that I'd like to know.

Everyone else understands this.

You aren't able to know that. You haven't consulted everyone else. Are you going to ask Hannah about what happened that wasn't screened? What was shown was not a continuous take; it had been edited.

 

[skipjack]

I think the person who loaded the gun who was sat in the room with Derren when he fired it would disagree about the bang.

That's hardly relevant, since he wasn't asked. In any case, I didn't say the bang wasn't audible in the room, just that it could have been added as a pre-recorded bang, rather than being produced by the gun that Derren was holding. There was no verification that the gun had been fired. The only indication that it had been was the bang heard. In a theatrical production, the bang for a gun apparently fired on the stage is sometimes in fact produced in the wings. It's safer to do things that way.

 

[skipjack]

Needle through arm is a well-known effect; you don't need to rely on anyone, just on the mentalist not to screw up. Robbie wasn't meant to know the secret, and if he did suddenly realise the secret, then it's not Derren's fault.

I understand what you're saying, but it was clear that Robbie would know the piercing was fake. The needle was quite thick and Robbie hadn't felt pain. In the earlier conversation (before the stunt was properly underway), Derren asked Robbie about his tattoos and Robbie said they hurt to have done, so he does normally feel pain. Also, it's obvious that singing Three Blind Mice with your eyes closed wouldn't prevent your feeling your arms being pierced by thick needles. Are you seriously suggesting Derren thought Robbie would believe that the needles were really in his arms when he'd looked at them? That's absurd. Robbie said that they were, so he was playing along from a quite early stage. His denial of pain, giggling, face-pulling, etc., and closing remarks confirmed it.

What does the mentalist do if the subject does say something that spoils the illusion? How does he avoid "screwing up" as you put it?

 

[Bob Klase]

I apeal to DJM and Bob Klase just ignore this troll,and he might,just might go away.

Actually I thought that was a good idea when I read it. But you've made 2 more posts since you wrote that.

 

[Bob Klase]

That's hardly relevant, since he wasn't asked. In any case, I didn't say the bang wasn't audible in the room, just that it could have been added as a pre-recorded bang, rather than being produced by the gun that Derren was holding.

Or it "could have been" made by a cannon outside that was far enough away to sound like a gun on the audio. Or it "could have been" some guy that makes sound effects with his vocal cords and can make a noise like a gun. Or it "could have been" a 2nd hidden gun fired by an instant stooge.

Or the whole show "could have been" computer generated video and nobody was really there at all except the guy running the computer.

Nobody has proven that any of those possibilities are false.

 

[Bob Klase]

You don't know that he played along. At all. Just because you don't know how the trick was done, doesn't mean he cheated.

I think that's at least 1/2 the point. Skippy knows a little about magic but not much and many of his complaints are designed to find out how it was done. He guesses or says it must be stooges hoping that someone will tell him the real method to prove him wrong.

 

[DJM]

I understand what you're saying, but it was clear that Robbie would know the piercing was fake. The needle was quite thick and Robbie hadn't felt pain. In the earlier conversation (before the stunt was properly underway), Derren asked Robbie about his tattoos and Robbie said they hurt to have done, so he does normally feel pain. Also, it's obvious that singing Three Blind Mice with your eyes closed wouldn't prevent your feeling your arms being pierced by thick needles. Are you seriously suggesting Derren thought Robbie would believe that the needles were really in his arms when he'd looked at them? That's absurd. Robbie said that they were, so he was playing along from a quite early stage. His denial of pain, giggling, face-pulling, etc., and closing remarks confirmed it.

What does the mentalist do if the subject does say something that spoils the illusion? How does he avoid "screwing up" as you put it?

Yes, the whole point is for Robbie to believe the needles are in his arms.. this is the whole point of the effect. If Derren wanted someone to play along, he would have chosen a famous actor rather than a musician who can't even sing well, let alone act.

Participents don't spoil the illusions even if they realise what's going on, because that's part of human nature. I know most of the effects mentalists do, so if I go to see a stage show and get choosen I wouldn't ruin anything for him. Because:

1) It would embarass the mentalist.

2)It would ruin the illusion for the audience who paid money for the show.

3) Would make me seem like an irrogant ass.

So it would take a really bad person to ruin a trick in the middle of the show, that's why you almost never see that happen. It's called manners.

Yes, I believe Derren wanted Robbie to think it's real, because it's his job to fool people. It's not the first time he does illusions on celebs, that doesn't mean they all have an idea how these tricks works. Just because they are famous doesn't make them big experts in magic.

And like I've said a few times, this effect works as if it was a real thing, so relying on Robbie to be some kind of stooge is just pointless and might instult the creator of this effect.

 

[Azrael 5]

That's hardly relevant, since he wasn't asked. In any case, I didn't say the bang wasn't audible in the room, just that it could have been added as a pre-recorded bang, rather than being produced by the gun that Derren was holding. There was no verification that the gun had been fired. The only indication that it had been was the bang heard. In a theatrical production, the bang for a gun apparently fired on the stage is sometimes in fact produced in the wings. It's safer to do things that way.

Looking at it from the audience perception:a hole appeared in a sandbag after the gun went bang.That is verification.It's a trick what do you want? Hollywood showgirls dancing thorugh with banners saying "Its been fired"

Anyway, there was no need to use a real firearm, so why would he do so? Nobody verified that it had been fired. He could use any gun, then just add a bang on the audio.

Make your mind up.First its audio that was added in post production(not possible the show was live)now it was a sound effect outside the room! There was a witness in that room who clearly heard the sho,the armourer clearly fired the gun at the sandbag also.The acoustics even sound correct.Stop clutching at straws.

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xmlfeed.nsf/mndwebpages/russian roulette man. i.m no fake

However, police on the island of Jersey, where the stunt took place, revealed this week (ends10OCT03) that they had banned Brown from using live ammunition - forcing him to use a blank instead of the supposedly potentially fatal bullet.

How much clearer would you like it?
No mention of a prop gun.

 

[DJM]

Even a prop gun with blanks could be dangerous, so that side of the story is pointless as well..

 

[skipjack]

. . . many of his complaints are designed to find out how it was done. He guesses or says it must be stooges hoping that someone will tell him the real method to prove him wrong.

You know that's not true, since Robbie Williams is the only person featured that I've said was a stooge (or instant stooge).

Regarding the Russian Roulette, listing rather absurd possibilities is pointless; I was simply stating that the firing of the gun wasn't verified, which everyone who watched should know, and explaining why hearing a bang doesn't verify the gun was fired. Unlike firing a cannon, etc., what I described was a plausible way of avoiding danger and avoiding the use of a real gun, which would have required a permit. The Jersey police have already stated no live ammunition was used, so I didn't need to ask about that.

 

[DJM]

Well, Robbie wasn't a stooge/instant stooge and the assistants in the Person Swap were not actors. So just let that go already, no one agrees with you.