When being sodomized...?

[slingblade]

You know, if you really and truly don't care for America's filthy, capitalist, health care system (...or lack of gun control, or welfare state, or whatever cause celeb you're pushing this week...) then I suggest you renounce your citizenship, pick a border to one of these socialist promised lands you love so dearly, and cross it.

Yeah, cause heaven forfend you might want to do something to make the country better.

Let's just make all the people with ideas take them to other countries, for their benefit. We'll leave all the no-ideas, no-clues, no-brainers here.

I still have an "America: Love It or Leave It" bumper sticker from the '70s, buried in a box somewhere. I could dig it out and send it to you.....

 

[blndrhed]

My husband has had a pinched nerve in his neck for a month now. We can't afford treatment. He's in constant pain. And he's the only one working right now, because I'm mentally defective at the moment and can no longer justify running up a bill at my therapist I still can't pay. (She's been very sweet about it, but I simply can't drive the bill up any higher. I feel so guilty.)

I talk about my poverty because I get the feeling there are a number here who just don't understand having to choose between paying rent and paying for a doctor's visit to keep you healthy enough to work a crap job so you can pay the rent.

I get it. And I'd like you to get it, too.

I'd love to get a job. Trust me, I would. But just sitting here, thinking about it--just thinking about it--has me bawling almost hysterically. I'm not okay.

There is something wrong in this country. I'm glad that Moore has at least re-energized the discussion about health care and its costs in this country.

But the next time some "trailer trash" goes ballistic and kills his/her kids or him- herself, and you ask why s/he didn't get any help, I'll be here to tell you exactly why.

I'm so sorry. I've had similar problems with my health and trying to get treatment. Unlike you though I don't have a family and really to think of. So I'm only responsible to myself. I couldn't conceive of where I would be if I actually had a wife and children. As far as me ever having a family it just wouldn't be possible considering my situation. You stay strong though.

 

[Ziggurat]

On the other hand, if he verified the specific refuser and adapted their life span to zero a message might be sent - and if more people considered that option (as I would if I had reason to believe my mother was murdered by a waiting game) some adjustment might just occur.

No doubt some adjustment would occur. But honestly, what adjustment exactly do you think that is? As I see it, possibilities include competent people with good prospects in other fields getting out of the insurance business, insurance companies becoming purely algorithmic in their assessment of permitted treatment options so that nobody takes responsibility for any decisions but only follows strict rules, and insurance premiums skyrocketing so that insurers don't have to refuse coverage but more people go without treatment because they don't have insurance. None of those change would benefit patients, but would rather hurt them. I'm sure there are other possible adjustments I haven't thought of, and I'm sure many of those wouldn't benefit patients either. Murdering people doesn't tend to improve complex social systems.

 

[Gurdur]

... {various assinine assertions snipped} ....

Beerina, you have been proven wrong by the facts, and that in great abundance; all your assertions have been disproven in detail on the JREF in many threads, and yet you continue to repeat them senselessly, and you never ever actually discuss your assertions and the refutations of them, you just re-parrot them.

How about you get back to us one day when you are actually prepared to rationally discuss? Your parroting is just so unconvincing, after all, no matter how repetitive.

 

[gtc]

Gurdur,

Can you tell us about the differences between the German and Australian health systems? I think there is a great deal of information missing from the health threads I have read and it might take some of the heat out the polarisation of opinions if we had more info.

As a start I would characterise the Australian system as mixed public and private.

The General Practioner system is subsidised by the government with a per visit payment. Many GPs don't charge a top-up fee for Australian residents in which case there is no out of pocket expense. I believe the number of GPs charging a top up fee is increasing but I don't have the figures. Patients are also free to select a GP of their choice each visit.

The hospital system is two tiered. There is a public system which is free or nearly free (correct if I am wrong) but tends to have longish waiting lists. The private system is suppossed to have shorter waiting lists with more personalised attention but conditions do vary. Private hospital costs tend to be split between private insurance companies, the government and direct payment from the patient.

The government has a mandatory insurance scheme called Medicare which is funded by a levy as part of the income tax scheme (it is really just an additional income tax but the government of the day had promised not to raise taxes). Private insurance is almost mandatory as those without private insurance are liable to pay a higher Medicare levy (after the age of 30 I believe).

If you have covered this before Gurdur, could you point me to the thread?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Yeah, cause heaven forfend you might want to do something to make the country better.

Better for who? I see no benefit in a socialized health care system where my care is rationed because there is no price barriers to keep demand in check, or there is no profit motive to create new techniques or medications, or where the entrepreneurs who invest in our society have to be made to pay higher taxes to fund this system.

It migh be better for you and your ideological friends, but I am far from convinced of the economic feasibility or morality of an American socialized medical system.

Let's just make all the people with ideas take them to other countries, for their benefit. We'll leave all the no-ideas, no-clues, no-brainers here.

I find you "ideas" lacking. I don't want nationalized health care. A lot of people in this nation don't want nationalized health care. Why should they be made to opt in if they don't wish to? You think its a "no brainer"... well, that's your choice.

Is it OK for you to foist your ideas on me when you have a perfectly viable option to live in the socio-economic system you approve of? At least I'm offering you a choice. What choice are you offering me?

I still have an "America: Love It or Leave It" bumper sticker from the '70s, buried in a box somewhere. I could dig it out and send it to you.....

It still doesn't answer my question: If you do not approve of the American health care or economic system, why NOT join a society that does. Why must those who enjoy the current system be made to change because YOU think it is somehow "progressive."

 

[Gurdur]

Gurdur,
Can you tell us about the differences between the German and Australian health systems?

1. The German system will cost you personally as a payer a bit more (but not much) than I believe the Australian system now costs, unless you come in under the low income limit, in which case it's free to you
   .
2. however, the German system covers much more, including in a big way dental stuff, which is a huge advantage over the Australian system
   .
3. and very importantly, Australian docs and hospitals operate under far more stringent budgetary limitations than do their German counterparts; this is of real importance when you really need a particular scan, but in Australia the hospital and the referring doc will sometimes quick-shuffle you off to each other because neither can fit you in under their budgetary limits. Still, you're still far better off than in the USA.
   .
4. there are also very importantly other very big differences between the Australian and German systems; the Australian system is now terribly tied up with ever-continuing re-certification (where a doc has to do various things duuring the year to stay qualified for practice), so that Australian medics work under terribly suffocating conditions at times. This does not only go for medicine but also for uni academia; Australian uni academics are now in very unenviable positions of wasting most of their time on proving they exist, rather than actual teaching and/or doing research.
   .
   Please keep in mind I speak largely from a pissed-off academic's/medic's POV; the medic's because I had a lot to do with that field previously.
   .
   I will detail the German system later. Will make new thread for it.

I think there is a great deal of information missing from the health threads I have read and it might take some of the heat out the polarisation of opinions if we had more info.

No doubt, no doubt, if only by burying people under information they all get sent to sleep. Cheap anasthetic.

If you have covered this before Gurdur, could you point me to the thread?

I haven't done actual differences between say Australia, NZ, UK, Canada and Germany, yet, sorry. Will get around to doing.

 

[Gurdur]

Better for who? I see no benefit in a socialized health care system where my care is rationed

However, that is ONLY your own point of view.
Do keep that in mind.

It migh be better for you and your ideological friends

I don't know why you go out of your way to be offensive to Slingblade; it's unnecessary, unindicated and bitchy of you.

, but I am far from convinced of the economic feasibility or morality of an American socialized medical system.

Well, I'm bloody sure you won't let the facts interrupt your prejudices.

It still doesn't answer my question: If you do not approve of the American health care or economic system, why NOT join a society that does. Why must those who enjoy the current system be made to change because YOU think it is somehow "progressive."

So you want everyone who disagrees with you to move out? How terribly convenient for you, not to mention how petulant of you.

My goodness, with such an attitude it's a wonder we aren't still living in trees and regarding the Moon as being the Big Unreachable Cheese In The Sky.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Always a fan of the old love it or leave it response. Last time I checked, this was America. A representative republic based on democratic principles. That means a government answerable to the people. It was never meant as a capitalist utopia. So if the majority of the population wants medical care reforms, whether it's a socialist based reform, or a market based reform consisting of government imposed regulations.

Ah yes, democracy. Two wolves and sheep deciding what's for dinner. Forget Nazism. Forget Marxism. Majoritarianism is the greatest threat to freedom in humanity's history.

Also, given the constraints about the seizure of property containing in the Bill Of Rights, I would not be so certain that the founders ever would have intended America to be a socialist society.

It is the responsibility of the government to answer to the will of the people.

No, it has the responsibility to protect the lives, liberty, and property of this nations citizens. If this government were to answer to the "will" of fickle, greedy, and often-times tyrannical people, this nation would have been a police state a long time ago.

Of course, given how much power the government has usurped in the last 100 years (e.g. the New Deal, The War On Drugs, the Great Society, PATRIOT Act, etc). there are times I'm not sure we're not sure we're already there.

I'd rather not loose anymore economic freedom I have left to the likes of Michael Moore.

As far as expatriation? Do you have any idea what that entails. They've pretty much made it damn near impossible. No country wants their citizens leaving, and no other country wants a bunch of disgruntled Americans arriving at their doorstep.

I ask you the same question I ask of slingblade: You have a choice between a system that you disapprove of and one that you approve of. Why not take it and leave me alone. Why must you foist your system upon those of us who don't want a part of it? Why must you deny me my choice when you already have one?

Certainly if you really thought America was so corrupt and evil, you'd find a way to leave.

 

[gtc]

Thanks Gurdur that was informative.

 

[Gurdur]

Thanks Gurdur that was informative.

Nowhere near as informative as I would have liked it to be, but then I'm not getting paid for this, and I lack easy MEDLINE access these days.


I once almost applied for a grant to do such a comparison study (Australia/Canada/USA) together with an Australian doc who was really interested, but I had to go back to Germany, so nothing came of that potential collaborative effort.

I feel guilty about not being as informative as I would like to be, but it realy does take TONS of time and a lot of resources to do such a job properly,and one has to earn one's living in the meantime.

I will do two threads on what you want as soon as I can, OK? Will take some time.

 

[Gurdur]

Ah yes, democracy. Two wolves and sheep deciding what's for dinner. Forget Nazism. Forget Marxism. Majoritarianism is the greatest threat to freedom in humanity's history.

Dude, dude, the fact that we don't follow your peevish orders does not mean a "threat to freedom". Quite the reverse, actually, we're exercising our freedom despite your horror at that.

If this government were to answer to the "will" of fickle, greedy, and often-times tyrannical people,

Oh come now, not even in Washington do they always do your bidding, despite your efforts the threat is not so big.
Chillax, dude, chillax.

I'd rather not loose anymore economic freedom I have left to the likes of Michael Moore.

Anyone else noticed Michael Moore determining the federal or even a small state budget? Or is this as looney as it looks?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

However, that is ONLY your own point of view.
Do keep that in mind.

So why can't I be allowed to follow my point of view and make the health care choices I want to make?

I don't know why you go out of your way to be offensive to Slingblade; it's unnecessary, unindicated and bitchy of you.

I wasn't being offensive to Slingblade, at least none was meant. I apologize if offense was given, but I stand by my original statement: Socialized medicine might satisfy (for whatever reason) Slingblade and others of the same political beliefs. It is a detriment to me.

Well, I'm bloody sure you won't let the facts interrupt your prejudices.

Facts? I could just as easily say that my "facts" trump your "facts:"
http://www.reason.com/news/show/32288.html
http://www.reason.com/news/show/120998.html
http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1563758/story.jhtml

Who's right? Who's wrong? We can go round and round for ages. What will we have gained? I want my system. You want yours. We can both have what we want.

So you want everyone who disagrees with you to move out? How terribly convenient for you, not to mention how petulant of you.

Would you rather "I" move?

No, I want to be able to make a choice. I don't want socialized medicine. I don't want to pay for it. I don't want to partake of it. I am happy with my current health care options.

You and all those who agree with you, already have a choice. You can live in market-run health care system, or you can choice to live in a society where health care is paid for by the state.

I am allowing you your choice. Why do you want to take my choice away?

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Dude, dude, the fact that we don't follow your peevish orders does not mean a "threat to freedom". Quite the reverse, actually, we're exercising our freedom despite your horror at that.

I'm not telling you to do anything. All I did was point out that you have a choice. If anything you are telling me how I should live: Under your economic system, under your rules.

Anyone else noticed Michael Moore determining the federal or even
a small state budget? Or is this as looney as it looks?

Why should he when there are Democrats (and a couple of left-leaning Republicans) who are more than willing to do it for him?

 

[Gurdur]

So why can't I be allowed to follow my point of view and make the health care choices I want to make?

Which part of "You live in a society and on no point whatsoever can you have it all your own way" do you not wish to understand?

I wasn't being offensive to Slingblade,

You most certainly were. I coiuld understand if you were being offensive to me, Oliver, Darth Rotor or the usual suspects, but Slingblade is one of Nature's more retiring beasties; it was very inappropriate indeed.

At least when I get offensive, I bloody well mean to be,

at least none was meant. I apologize if offense was given,

Fair enough. Decent of you.

but I stand by my original statement: Socialized medicine might satisfy (for whatever reason) Slingblade and others of the same political beliefs. It is a detriment to me.

What is good for you is bad for me, and vice versa, one man's fish is another man's poisson, you simply cannot demand to have everything your own way -- at least not without looking ridiculous.

Facts? I could just as easily say that my "facts" trump your "facts:"
http://www.reason.com...

You COULD try saying that, I would laugh. In the linked thread I gave you, all the hard facts are given in easy-to-read format, with all sources; they cover the facts that while say as an average taxpayer Germany will give you just as good health care as the USA , it will give you that same healthcare cheaper than in the USA, MUCH cheaper; as an average tax payer in the USA, you pay double what I do in fees, hidden taxation and the like, and only for the same job; and every single person in Germany is covered, while more than 10% of the USA population isn't.

The economical incompetence of the USA system is quite well known and documented, and that by unbiased sources; I note you cited a very obviously biased site to me.

Who's right? Who's wrong? We can go round and round for ages. What will we have gained? I want my system. You want yours. We can both have what we want.

If you want to live in a democracy, you must abide by what the citizens decide together. Get over it; it's basic socialization (pun intended). Elementary stuff: you simply cannot have it all your own way.

Would you rather "I" move?

No, I would honestly rather that you grew up and stopped throwing tantrums if it doesn't go all your own way. I can live in a society which doesn't do everything I want it to do, I can't see why you should have so many problems doing the same.

I am allowing you your choice. Why do you want to take my choice away?

Please don't be silly. If the USA is a democracy, and if you wish to live in the USA, then you must abide by the democratic will of the populace.

 

[gtc]

I will do two threads on what you want as soon as I can, OK? Will take some time.

I look forward to them but don't bust a gut on my behalf.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

If you want to live in a democracy...

I didn't say I wanted to live in a "democracy" (Whatever that means.). I want to be free to do with my life as I choose. As you are so rapt to point out, that is not a democratic concern. My love of individual freedom makes me a foe to all totalitarian systems, but I've come to understand that majoritrarianism is the most savage form of tyranny of all.

No, I would honestly rather that you grew up and stopped throwing tantrums if it doesn't go all your own way.

So in other words, I disapprove of your generous (yes, generous with my money that I work hard to make) social schemes, I'm throwing a "tantrum?" So bend over and accept the glorious benevolent dictatorship. Sodomized indeed.

Please don't be silly. If the USA is a democracy, and if you wish to live in the USA, then you must abide by the democratic will of the populace.

Democracy: The ultimate ad populum fallacy.

We're done here.
We have nothing more to say.

 

[blndrhed]

You know "Reason" magazine is a Libertarian rag for a bunch of Objectivist Randroids. Not really anything credible that anyone will take the least bit seriously.

That wouldn't be that movie review from that tool from MTV that everybody's been laughing about recently is it? What's his name? Kurt Loder? I'd click the link and check but I tend to have an aversion to MTV. It was Jello Biafra and the Dead Kennedys who sang that song "MTV Get Off the Air". Man! I loved those guys.

 

[Segnosaur]

Sengosaur:
The treatments are there, just unaffordable.

Not sure what exactly you mean by this. Are you referring to a system with 'socialized' medicine but one which allows (expensive) private treatment as well? In that case, I wouldn't necessarily consider it a 'socialized' system; more of a dual public/private system.

Not all countries are like that though. Here in Canada, many parts of the country have very strict rules against private health care. Its not that its expensive, its just not allowed.

While implementation may be in the hands of bureaucrats, the decisions on what procedures will be made available is going to come from public pressure on the politicians responsible.

I already pointed out the problems with that:

- Yes, politicians may decide which procedures to add based on public pressure, but those decisions will be based on public perception rather than medical reality. This is even assuming the politicians even get involved. There are many things in a party's political platform besides health care... the economy, the environment, national defense, etc. A politician may not bother adding new procedures if they think they have enough support in those other areas. (Also, look at Canada: our Federal government basically starved our health care system for a decade, supposedly to take care of our national deficit. Health care can easily take a back seat when decided by politicians.)

- You could have the wisest politicians ever when it comes to deciding on health care issues, but people using the health care system still have to contend with the bureaurcacy. Having a politician say "we should add 10 new MRI machines" isn't useful if the Bureaucrat has them installed in the arctic, and decides to run them only 1 hour a day. Implementation IS important, and that WILL be in the hands of people who have no incentive to perfect things.

In the private system, your insurance will not pay for your procedures if it can avoid doing so. As you said, greed is a powerful motivator.

You're right, a private system won't pay for things if they don't have to. That's why we have the courts and civil law. By the way, not all insurance company rejections are unjustified. I'm sure people regularly to scam the system.

By the way, public systems don't necessarily pay for everything either. The difference is... in a private system you can still get treatment. (You may go into debt to get it, but at least you'll still be alive). In a public system (assuming its similar to Canada's system), if the government isn't willing to pay, you often find yourself, well, dead.

 

[Gurdur]

I didn't say I wanted to live in a "democracy"

Oh, I think we got that, but that is what you are living in, and since you continue to do so, you are doing so by your own free choice. You might as well face up to that.

My love of individual freedom makes me a foe to all totalitarian systems, but I've come to understand that majoritrarianism is the most savage form of tyranny of all.

You don't love "individual freedom" at all; that has already been shown. You simply want to have everything your way, which is of course something totally different.

I'm throwing a "tantrum?" So bend over and accept the glorious benevolent dictatorship. Sodomized indeed.

My goodness, such Weltschmerz.

Democracy: The ultimate ad populum fallacy.

Wrong.
It's simply a system of government. It is a system of premises, adopted or rejected as they are, and it is not an argument. Therefore it cannot be a fallacy; if you are confused, do try remembering that only an attempted argument can be a fallacy, not a simple premise sans argument.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
-- Winston Churchill

We're done here.
We have nothing more to say.

You know, sometimes I have no idea why you post on bulletin boards; you are bound to keep on running into people who disagree with you, yet you seem very unwilling and unable to cope with disagreement at all.