When being sodomized...?

Then again, with socialized medicine (in a democracy) the powers that be are going to be a t least marginally more responsive to a public that wants to receive life saving medical treatment.
 
Then again, with socialized medicine (in a democracy) the powers that be are going to be a t least marginally more responsive to a public that wants to receive life saving medical treatment.

Maybe. But have you been to the DMV lately?

There is no panacea. In fact, there isn't even an optimal solution to the problem. Every approach has tradeoffs, and we're not even all going to agree on which tradeoffs are preferable, even if we agreed on what the tradeoffs were (which, to be honest, good luck with getting even that).
 
I've had to do a lot of dealing with the DMV because I had a program car through Chrysler that required some irregular paperwork. I found the wait to be a bit long, but the staff to be responsive and competent. On the one occasion I ran into a stereotypical DMV employee I just called up another branch, confirmed they were willing to help, and went over there.
 
Gee, you really hate my guts don't you, since I basically spanked you on the whole Iraq invasion legality post. That's what I love about you conservatives. Your all so freaking angry all the time. I think everybody should now refer to the GOP as the AWP, or "Angry, White-Guy, Party". Seriously, just relax a bit. You'll enjoy life so much more.

You know, if you really and truly don't care for America's filthy, capitalist, health care system (...or lack of gun control, or welfare state, or whatever cause celeb you're pushing this week...) then I suggest you renounce your citizenship, pick a border to one of these socialist promised lands you love so dearly, and cross it. No one is stopping you from exercising your pedal franchise. On the other hand, I'm perfectly happy with my evil, for-profit health insurance plan where pharmaceutical companies make billions and doctors drive sports cars and I don't want loose it in favor of DMV health care where lifesaving treatments are rationed just because you don't think you should have to actually pay for medicine.

Why must you inflict your poltical preferences upon those who want no part in what you or Michael Moore are selling?

BTW, before you break out your broad brush: I didn't vote for Bush. I'm not a Republican or a conservative. I'm an atheist who despises the Christian Right and wants abortion and gay marriage to be legal. I don't support the Iraq War or even the "War On Terror" as it stands.
 
Then again, with socialized medicine (in a democracy) the powers that be are going to be a t least marginally more responsive to a public that wants to receive life saving medical treatment.

Not necessarily. Remember the old saying "You can't fight city hall".

With any government service (medical or otherwise), much of the work is done by bureaucrats, who basically have no incentive to innovate. Plus, when politicians get involved, decisions often get made based on what looks good in the polls rather than what's actually best for patients. (For example, HIV may get more attention than things like Cancer treatment, even though cancer causes more deaths.)

I do not assume that in a private system that companies are doing things for anyone's benefit but themselves. But greed IS a powerful motivator... if there is a demand for some treatment, some medical company will probably set up that treatment a lot faster than a pubic system.
 
Sengosaur:
The treatments are there, just unaffordable. While implementation may be in the hands of bureaucrats, the decisions on what procedures will be made available is going to come from public pressure on the politicians responsible.

In the private system, your insurance will not pay for your procedures if it can avoid doing so. As you said, greed is a powerful motivator.
 
Unrelatedly, I have to say think thread got my attention after the first response when it showed up as:

When being sodomized...?
by Miss Anthrope

And I said, "What?"
 
I'll personally take what ever cures me without leaving me destitute.

So you reject cures that can only be had if they leave you destitute? You'd rather be dead than poor?

Interesting. I'll grant you that. However, that should not affect my choice in the matter.


You speak good buzzward you really should watch the movie. It does a good job of debunking that stuff. Anyway most of the advances in medicine come from government funded research.

But not all. There's the delta, and why such a nation that relied purely on government research, and the "good will" of medicine, will lag further and further behind where they otherwise would be. Net effect: More dead than otherwise would be. Have you helped anyone?

...so where does the money come from for research? Our tax dollars. So how do you like them making insane amounts of profits off of what we already paid for in the first place.

Is someone stopping another business from starting production on the paid-for cure? Is this situation truly the main cause of the problem? I'm doubting it, given it's not generally a source of problems in other areas.

The whole issue isn't the quality of our medical care. Which, by the way is pretty bad. It's the insurance companies jacking the prices of healthcare to astronomical levels. Do you like living in a country where insurance executives might have eight mansions, five luxury boats and twelve automobiles, while people are financianally ruined everyday because of medical bills.

Removing their mansions would not make one percentage point difference in the costs, nor cover a tiny fraction of the financial ruinations.

And, again, the choice isn't between care-with-ruination and equal care-without-ruination. The choice is between care-with-ruination and much lousier care-without-ruination.

I speak as a person whose mother died when I was eighteen years old of lymphoma because Blue Cross refused to cover her for a bone marrow transplant saying it was "experimental".

Do socialized countries leap onto the bandwagon of paying for experimental procedures?

And here's the real question: Would that treatment be available quite as soon in a world of full socialist medicine? Or in a world with full profit medicine, perhaps it would long since have been declared standard, given other countries with medical profits would be driving development faster than it otherwise would be.


We love corporations and greedy profits when they're developing the latest video game console. Why? Because we know that "regulated video game console development" and 3D card development would leave us with some 1993-level crap.

How much more vital for something as core as medical technology?
 
"I'm sorry for your loss. But in order to say that she died because Blue Cross denied a particular treatment, you would need to demonstrate that the treatment was not only going to improve her chances, but would have assured her survival. And unfortunately, that just isn't the case. Maybe she would have survived with treatment, and maybe she should have been given the treatment, but the sad reality is that it's quite possible she would have died regardless."

Actually, I don't know how much help the treatment would have been without the four month delay. That's really not the point. The point is that the treatment she received should have been left up to her care provider alone. If you watch "Sicko" you will realize what lengths the insurance companies will go to to refuse to cover people's treatments, especially in cases of costly procedures for catastrophic illnesses. When I watched the movie I realized that what happened with my mother is a pretty pervasive. They often classify treatments as "experimental". It's a common tactic of theirs.

Sorry about my previous post. I'll try to keep it civil from now on.
 
So you reject cures that can only be had if they leave you destitute? You'd rather be dead than poor?

Interesting. I'll grant you that. However, that should not affect my choice in the matter.




But not all. There's the delta, and why such a nation that relied purely on government research, and the "good will" of medicine, will lag further and further behind where they otherwise would be. Net effect: More dead than otherwise would be. Have you helped anyone?



Is someone stopping another business from starting production on the paid-for cure? Is this situation truly the main cause of the problem? I'm doubting it, given it's not generally a source of problems in other areas.



Removing their mansions would not make one percentage point difference in the costs, nor cover a tiny fraction of the financial ruinations.

And, again, the choice isn't between care-with-ruination and equal care-without-ruination. The choice is between care-with-ruination and much lousier care-without-ruination.



Do socialized countries leap onto the bandwagon of paying for experimental procedures?

And here's the real question: Would that treatment be available quite as soon in a world of full socialist medicine? Or in a world with full profit medicine, perhaps it would long since have been declared standard, given other countries with medical profits would be driving development faster than it otherwise would be.


We love corporations and greedy profits when they're developing the latest video game console. Why? Because we know that "regulated video game console development" and 3D card development would leave us with some 1993-level crap.

How much more vital for something as core as medical technology?
Honestly you're talking in a socialist/capitalist either/or way. That's very common with pro-capitalists. Pure socialism, like pure capitalism, has never existed, because either system could never work in a pure form because it would make the society to unstable. Do I want my game consoles made by the government? hell no. Same with my shoes, and my automobile. That is the roll of the market place. When it comes to the social infrastructure, that's where I want the government the most. Things that are necessary in any society need to be controlled by the government, I don't want the market building my roads, policing my neighborhood, defending my country or providing healthcare. Because we all no that the market's goal is to maximize profits. The essential stuff needs to be supplied at the lowest cost possible without profit motivation. Because when it comes to supply and demand, the markets go crazy when the demand is mandatory. That's exactly why we are in a crisis when it comes to healthcare.
 
Actually, I don't know how much help the treatment would have been without the four month delay. That's really not the point. The point is that the treatment she received should have been left up to her care provider alone.

If that becomes the system we adopt, then all that is going to do is shift the responsibility for saying no for many of these cases onto the care provider. Because that's what MUST happen, because resources are limited. People MUST be refused treatment that might possibly save their lives - that's an unfortunate reality, but it is reality, and it's one that seems to get ignored quite frequently. Right now, doctors don't have that responsibility - advocating expensive, low-success treatments is essentially free for the doctor, and so they probably do it more often than they should. That's a weakness of the current system, to be sure, and maybe it's better if patients aren't given false hope of getting that treatment to begin with. Maybe it's preferable to give doctors the responsibility to make that call, but one way or another, that call will get made, and people will be refused treatments which might save their lives just because it's too expensive. There is no way of avoiding that.

If you watch "Sicko" you will realize what lengths the insurance companies will go to to refuse to cover people's treatments, especially in cases of costly procedures for catastrophic illnesses.

And in a system of socialized medicine, you can end up with administrators who won't go to great lengths to refuse treatment, because they'll be able to refuse treatment easily. The most fundamental problem - scarcity of resources, and hence a need to limit their distribution - will exist in every system you could possibly develop.

Sorry about my previous post. I'll try to keep it civil from now on.

Don't worry about it. I'm not always the friendliest guy either, but that was far from what I'd call a nasty exchange (and I have had a few which qualify).
 
What health care crisis? Don't we continue to get the annual news that Americans are living longer, each year?

Lessee, we average about 77 years. By then, we have been on Medicare for 12-15 years. Most of our health care dollars are spent in the last few years, staving off the inevitable. So, most health care dollars are government dollars- about 60%? So who will be the big winner if we go to some other plan? (Hint: the taxpayer will be given to with one hand and taken from with the other). So I think that the whole debacle is basically a way to boost Social Security taxes- move the Medicare costs from payroll Social Security tax to a 'personal' tax. Just as the Social Security system is destined to move into negative cash flow.
 
In defense of myself "sodomy" is the correct term for anal intercourse.

As someone who has read the entire Bible, could you please refer to me where "anal intercourse" is discussed and/or mentioned in either the New or Old Testament?
 
Don't ask me anything about the bible, but the anal intercourse stuff must be in there somewhere. I imagine it would be in the part that's most popular with catholic priests
 
My husband has had a pinched nerve in his neck for a month now. We can't afford treatment. He's in constant pain. And he's the only one working right now, because I'm mentally defective at the moment and can no longer justify running up a bill at my therapist I still can't pay. (She's been very sweet about it, but I simply can't drive the bill up any higher. I feel so guilty.)

I talk about my poverty because I get the feeling there are a number here who just don't understand having to choose between paying rent and paying for a doctor's visit to keep you healthy enough to work a crap job so you can pay the rent.

I get it. And I'd like you to get it, too.

I'd love to get a job. Trust me, I would. But just sitting here, thinking about it--just thinking about it--has me bawling almost hysterically. I'm not okay.

There is something wrong in this country. I'm glad that Moore has at least re-energized the discussion about health care and its costs in this country.

But the next time some "trailer trash" goes ballistic and kills his/her kids or him- herself, and you ask why s/he didn't get any help, I'll be here to tell you exactly why.
 
I'm sorry for your loss. But in order to say that she died because Blue Cross denied a particular treatment, you would need to demonstrate that the treatment was not only going to improve her chances, but would have assured her survival. And unfortunately, that just isn't the case. Maybe she would have survived with treatment, and maybe she should have been given the treatment, but the sad reality is that it's quite possible she would have died regardless.

Furthermore, socialized medicine doesn't prevent this sort of thing from happening either. There always is, and always will be, less resources available than we would like to have. Had you been living in, say, Canada, it's quite possible that the doctors would simply have said, "there's nothing more we can do", and that's it. Socializing medicine (which I take to be Moore's goal) doesn't prevent people from deciding that certain patients can't have certain treatments even if there's a chance it might save them. It only changes who makes that decision. And if you don't think government beaurocrats can be just as callous and heartless as corporate CEO's, you haven't been around long enough.
On the other hand, if he verified the specific refuser and adapted their life span to zero a message might be sent - and if more people considered that option (as I would if I had reason to believe my mother was murdered by a waiting game) some adjustment might just occur.
 
How about in between? Like just enough to prevent tearing, yet also be... rough.

My university requires everyone to have health insurance. And the 'cheap' plan costs $1,500.
 
You know, if you really and truly don't care for America's filthy, capitalist, health care system (...or lack of gun control, or welfare state, or whatever cause celeb you're pushing this week...) then I suggest you renounce your citizenship, pick a border to one of these socialist promised lands you love so dearly, and cross it. No one is stopping you from exercising your pedal franchise. On the other hand, I'm perfectly happy with my evil, for-profit health insurance plan where pharmaceutical companies make billions and doctors drive sports cars and I don't want loose it in favor of DMV health care where lifesaving treatments are rationed just because you don't think you should have to actually pay for medicine.

Why must you inflict your poltical preferences upon those who want no part in what you or Michael Moore are selling?

BTW, before you break out your broad brush: I didn't vote for Bush. I'm not a Republican or a conservative. I'm an atheist who despises the Christian Right and wants abortion and gay marriage to be legal. I don't support the Iraq War or even the "War On Terror" as it stands.
Always a fan of the old love it or leave it response. Last time I checked, this was America. A representative republic based on democratic principles. That means a government answerable to the people. It was never meant as a capitalist utopia. So if the majority of the population wants medical care reforms, whether it's a socialist based reform, or a market based reform consisting of government imposed regulations. It is the responsibility of the government to answer to the will of the people. As far as expatriation? Do you have any idea what that entails. They've pretty much made it damn near impossible. No country wants their citizens leaving, and no other country wants a bunch of disgruntled Americans arriving at their doorstep.
 

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