[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

[SOMERLED]

if a conspiracy was compartmentalized why murder the execs and not those involved directly in said conspiracy? My brother in law is a Raytheon engineer and hes still alive.

Who says the ones more directly involved haven't also been murdered.
Because after all, it was most certainly an inside job.

 

[A W Smith]

two can play the assertion game

it was most certainly an inside job.

It most certaily was not an inside job. Only a fool would believe it was.

 

[Alt+F4]

My message is that 9/11 was an inside job and justice is going to be served in the matter, in spages.

I think you meant to say spades. Anyway, then please explain to me why the New York 9/11 Truth Group, by it's own admission, gets only an average of 17 people at it's monthly meetings....out of a city population of over 7 million?

Explain to me how "justice is going to be served" when 99% of 9/11 troofers won't contribute a single dime to the cause and do absolutely NOTHING expect pontificate on the Internet? play_w("P0439200")

 

[SpitfireIX]

Spitfire:

Has Malcolm sent you the $1000 cheque/check yet? I can't wait to see it...the charity you provided could really use the money I am sure.

TAM

 

[Myriad]

Where do you get this stuff from?

The number of passengers is from the figures on pages 4-10 of the 9/11 Commission Report. (I excluded flight crew and hijackers from the number I used here, because they cannot be Fortune 500 executives and so they don't figure in the probability calculations).

The percentage I used for Fortune 500 executives is a rough estimate, based on the scheduling of the flights making the passenges primarily business travellers, the fact that most business travellers are executives of one sort or another, and the overall significance of large companies in the U.S. civilian work force. (22.3 million Fortune 500 employess in 1999: http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/oecon/chap4.htm. Total U.S. civilian labor force of approximately 138 million in 2000, from the 2000 U.S. Census, accessed using the EEO Data Tool here: http://www.census.gov/eeo2000/. Note that 22.3 million is 16% of 138 million.)

If you have information that the actual total number of Fortune 500 executives on the flights was significantly greater or smaller that 32, let me know and I'll revise the probability calculation.

As for the probability calculation itself, I learned how to do it in school, but the methods go back a few centuries. From Wikipedia:

Aside from some elementary considerations made by Girolamo Cardano in the 16th century, the doctrine of probabilities dates to the correspondence of Pierre de Fermat and Blaise Pascal (1654). Christiaan Huygens (1657) gave the earliest known scientific treatment of the subject. Jakob Bernoulli's Ars Conjectandi (posthumous, 1713) and Abraham de Moivre's Doctrine of Chances (1718) treated the subject as a branch of mathematics. See Ian Hacking's The Emergence of Probability for a history of the early development of the very concept of mathematical probability.

I'm not really intererested in defending the validity or accuracy of this particular probability calculation with verbal argumentation. The only effective method of determining who is correctly calculating probabilities, and who is erring, is through significant cash wagers on future events, with each side betting based on their own determination of the probability of the outcomes. For instance, let each trial consist of thirty-two integers randomly selected with equal likelihood in the range of 1-500. Call it a hit if at least one number appears twice (or more) among the 32 selected numbers, and a miss otherwise. I'll gladly offer to pay you $20 for each miss, if you pay me $20 for each hit, over a course of let's say 50 trials. If you think the probability of a match among the 32 selected numbers is actually much lower (or anywhere less than 50%), and you're correct, then this is a sucker bet in your favor and you should take it. (But, fair warning: in fact, you'd be wrong and you'd be overwhelmingly likley to lose money.)

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[pomeroo]

Where do you get this stuff from?

It's a branch of mathematics called probability theory. You might check into something called "The Birthday Problem."

 

[ktesibios]

I thought they used wedge-shaped bits - fired together to make a sphere(ish) critical mass - to make atomic bombs? Spheres sound dangerous to me

And I'm fairly sure some degree of enrichment is needed to make fuel rods ...

If you're building a bomb out of U235, you can use gun assembly- firing a U235 projectile into a U235 target to assemble the critical mass. This was the basis of the "Little boy" bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

A bomb made with reactor-produced plutonium requires implosion assembly, in which a sphere of active material is compressed into a smaller sphere with explosives, to avoid a predetonation fizzle due to the higher neutron background of reactor-produced Pu. However, implosion assembly will also work with U235 and, assuming that you have the resources to make the implosion work reliably, is preferable because it makes for a less bulky weapon and produces a more efficient use of the active material.

Uranium enrichment really is a "dual-use" technology. The fuel for power producing reactors is normally slightly enriched from the normal mix of isotopes found in natural uranium (say, from the average 0.7% U235 to a few percent U235). As CP-1 proved, it is possible to make a controlled, sustained chain reaction go with natural uranium, but it's a considerable PITA; designing a practical reactor for producing power is much easier if you can goose up the U235 content of your fuel a bit.

Simply pursuing enrichment to the levels required for a power plant isn't evidence of a weapons program, but if you catch someone enriching the stuff up to bomb-grade levels or working on manufacturing uranium spheres to extremely close tolerances, you're probably looking at a wannabee proliferator.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Here's a question for y'all.
I have been accused of not doing any research.
Y'all will know better than me how many Raytheon employees were murdered on 9/11. Ostensibly/allegedly as passengers on the four 'hijacked' planes.

I've dealt briefly with this issue on Apollohoax; here is a more detailed treatment. Four Raytheon employees died in the September 11 attacks.

You are nearly right, but why quibble?
Now kindly tell me, out of all the firms in the world, do you find it the slightest bit odd that 'four' people who were in a position to know the truth of what Raytheon were capable of, were murdered on 9/11?

Begging the question of whether Raytheon was involved in the September 11 attacks.

Stanley R. Hall (American 77)

From an AOC (an association of electronic warfare professionals) article:

Mr. Stanley Hall, 68, of Clifton, Virginia was one of the victims on board American Airlines Flight 77 scheduled to travel from Washington D.C. to Los Angeles on September 11, 2001. As an employee of Raytheon’s Electronic Warfare Operations (Goleta, California), he was based in Arlington, Virginia, and served as Raytheon’s foremost liaison with key electronic warfare military leaders in the Washington D.C. area. . . .

Mr. Hall typified the finest of our nation’s engineering professionals; he was a true gentleman, quiet, unassuming, absolutely competent, and a man of great personal integrity and honor. He loved his job immensely, but perhaps his most important contribution was his commitment to the young engineers he mentored. Numerous engineers within Raytheon and his former employers have thrived under his tutelage. By sharing his gift for engineering through his teaching and personal relationships, his legacy will continue for years to come. He will be remembered for his pioneering spirit, warm heart, and strong sense of patriotism. [emphasis added]

Hall worked for a Raytheon division near Los Angeles and was assigned as a liaison to the Pentagon. Why do you find it even remotely suspicious that he would be flying from Washington, D. C. to Los Angeles?

Peter A. Gay (American 11)

From a Chicago Tribune article:

For nine months, Peter Gay spent four days of the week working in California, and three days with his family in Tewksbury, Mass.

He hated it. Hated grabbing American Airlines Flight 11 every Tuesday morning, from Boston to Los Angeles; hated being away from his wife of nine years and his 8-year-old daughter, Larissa, whom he called "Missy" or "Sweet Patootie."

Gay, 54, was one of four employees of defense contractor Raytheon Co. killed Tuesday morning when Flight 11 hit the World Trade Center. . . .

Linda Gay said her husband was a homebody. At Raytheon, co-workers called him the homegrown vice president, because he started out working as a student in a co-op program and ended up as vice president of operations for electronic systems. . . .

In January, Raytheon asked the Gays to move to California, but the family said no way. This bi-coastal life was a compromise. Every Tuesday morning, he flew out. Every Friday evening, he flew home.

"It's kind of hard today," Linda Gay said. "Every Friday I would pick him up at the airport. And there's nobody to pick up today." [emphasis added]

Here is an excerpt from a tribute by Linda Gay.

On September 11, 2001, at 8:46 A.M. my husband, my lover, my best friend was murdered on his way to work. As far as I'm concerned my life has been taken from me. However, I will not let the terrorist [sic] think they have won. Although they have taken my husband's body they cannot take his spirit or our memories. We have 21 years of wonderful memories together, in 1993 we were blessed with the birth of our daughter Larissa Lynne my first child at age 41 years and Peter's third at age 46 years but his only little girl. He has two sons from a previous marriage ages 25 and 31 years of age. She is now 9 years old, a straight A student, and she misses her daddy more than words can say. My husband's body was found on October 19, 2001 and Larissa was so happy that daddy was coming home. She said you know what I mean mommy, "I wish he was alive but at least his body is here with us and not in that cold place in New York." She is my strength and now I have to be both mother and father to her this is not the way our life was suppose to be. We now take baby steps every day in the mourning and healing process.

I cry a lot when my daughter is not around and especially when I visit my husband every day at his gravesite. He is not suppose to be there in the ground. I try to be strong for her when we are together. Larissa says that she cries on the inside, she is a very strong little girl. The first time I saw her really break down was when she first listened to Alan Jackson sing "Where Were You When The World Stopped Turning." My husband's life revolved around Larissa. Even though the last year of his life was filled with continual travel to the West Coast, he always made it home for her school field trips, he chaperoned, dance recitals and dance competitions. He hated to travel, he was a homebody, but he made sure Larissa knew he was there for her even when he was away. He always greeted her with a message on the answering machine each day at 3:30 p.m. our time so she knew he was thinking of her. She always ran in the house after school to check for his messages. Peter would always say to me, that I should consider myself lucky to have a beautiful, thoughtful and loving little girl. Weekends (he was away T-F every week) he would say to me Mom I have a buddy today. Larissa would not leave his side. They'd work in the yard together, play basketball, hide-n-seek, go swimming, build sandcastles to hold back the tide, go fishing or we'd go out on the boat.

From an article about Gay's father, Peter B. Gay, on the fifth anniversary of the attacks.

Gay says there has been no healing for him since his son, 54-year-old Peter A. Gay, was killed when terrorists hijacked American Airlines Flight 11 and crashed the plane into the World Trade Center that morning.

"The healing part has never occurred for me," said Gay . . .

His son's remains were found at the World Trade Center site and identified in October, 2001.

So, Malcolm, did Raytheon assign Gay to work in California in January, knowing that he'd refuse the transfer and commute by air, thus giving the company a way to kill him nine months later? Also, on a side note, can you explain why Gay's remains were found at the World Trade Center?

Kenneth Waldie (American 11)

From a tribute on a web site for a scholarship in Waldie's honor:

Ken Waldie was a passenger on American Airlines Flight 11 out of Boston on September 11th, 2001. He leaves behind his wife Carol,3 sons,Andrew,Jeffrey and Jonathan"JT... and his daughter Meredith along with his brother Jack and his 3 sisters,Jane,Mary Louise and Grace.. Ken’s life touched many people. This was shown by the turnout at his Memorial Service, estimated at 1,500 people. He was the type of guy who always saw the bright side of things and was the first to offer encouragement and find something positive to say.

During High School, Ken participated in several activities, including track, student council, Junior Class Vice-President and NHS, but it was swimming where he excelled. After participating in the AAU/youth program from the age of eight (8), he went on to swim for the Varsity Swim Team for four years. His senior year he was tri-Capitan of the team and led by example with his strong competitive attitude. The team earned the WPIAL Championship by one point, with Kenny swimming and placing in three events.

His personal accomplishments were many. The team leader, he graduated with several pool records. At the WPIAL Meet, Ken finished 2nd in the 100-yard freestyle, 3rd in the 400-yard freestyle relay, and 4th in the 50-yard freestyle. At the PIAA State Championships, Kenny earned All-State honors in the 50 Yard Freestyle.

After graduation, he accepted an Appointment to the United States Naval Academy. He continued his swimming career at this level and also participated in Brigade boxing and intramurals. His personality and leadership enabled him to be voted class president each of his four years -something in the rich tradition of the academy that had never been accomplished. His classmates continued to vote Ken president of the 1978 alumni group until he relinquished it in 1999.

He fulfilled his military commitment, with a five-year tour that included Australia and the States.

With his mathematics degree from the USNA, he accepted a job with Raytheon Corporation. He was a dedicated employee who taught classes to less experienced co-workers and won numerous work awards. He obtained his Masters Degree from Northeastern University, graduating first in his class. Keeping his family a priority, he was known to pick promotions that would not effect his time at home.

As impressive as these achievements were, it did not come close to what he accomplished in his personal life. Ken was the Director of Methuen Youth Basketball, active in the Little League Baseball Program and refereed AAU Basketball.

He gave respect and easily earned it. Words like leader, champion, and inspirational are used over and over in the tributes to him. He treated everyone the same, whether it was a one-time meeting or an on going friendship. The sight or mention of his name would always bring a smile.

David Kovalcin (American 11)

From a newspaper tribute:

here are little ghosts of Daddy in the mirrors of the Kovalcin house in Hudson, N.H.

David Kovalcin had a habit of drawing smiling portraits of the whole family — his wife, Elizabeth, and their daughters, Rebecca, 4, and Marina, 1 — on the steamy glass in the bathrooms. Now Rebecca draws her own, with only three people.

Mr. Kovalcin, 42, was a passenger on Flight 11, on a business trip for Raytheon, where he was a senior mechanical engineer. Mrs. Kovalcin said they had carved out a "Father Knows Best" kind of life, with him coming home at six every evening, choosing to know his family well rather than to work longer hours for more money.

She remembers that her husband had trouble sleeping two nights before his departure. "He woke me up at 3 a.m., and said 'I'm pacing the house. I can't sleep,' " she said.

"I rubbed his head and tried to calm him down. He was very distressed, but had no idea what it was. Then three days later I remembered, and thought, 'Holy cow, I wonder what that was about.' "

The morning he left home he had written a note for his family: "Rebecca, Marina and Mommy, I will miss everybody very much. See you Friday night." At the end he added, "I fed the dogs but not the fish."

I suppose you'll say that he was nervous two nights before because he'd discovered some terrible secret, and that's why "they" had to get rid of him, right, Malcolm?

In addition to these four Raytheon employees, Herbert Homer, a Defense Contract Management Agency (DCMA) employee, had 27 years' experience working with Raytheon as a DCMA representative.

Herbert Homer (United 175)

[No photo available]

From a DCMA web page:

“Herb has been a loyal employee of DCMA for 27 years. In that time he gained the respect and admiration of many both inside and outside the agency,” said Brig. Gen. Edward M. Harrington, DCMA Director. “He was a man we could count on for support and assistance when needed, he was a giving man, a joyous man, and he is irreplaceable. He will be missed by all of us.”

Herb played an integral part at DCMA Raytheon as the Defense corporate executive. At the time of his death Herb was working with Raytheon’s corporate restructuring, involving a merger between Raytheon, Texas Instrument, and Hughes Aircraft. Herb was instrumental in assisting Raytheon implement a cost savings approach in the restructuring. He worked out an approach that allowed Raytheon to save two dollars for every dollar they would spend on the restructuring effort. . . .

“Herb Homer was one of the finest people I have ever known. He loved his god, his country, and for certain his wife and family,” said Linda Rusk, senior vice president of acquisition reform, Raytheon Company. “He certainly exhibited the highest professionalism and dedication. But it was more than that, no matter how busy he was, he always took time to make sure you knew he cared about you as a person.”

According to Rusk, Herb had a unique way of making everyone feel special, no matter whom they were or what position they held. “Herb will certainly be missed; we are all better people for having known and for having the privilege of working with him,” she added. . . .

Herb was involved in a variety of community activities and charities, including the Special Olympics and Junior Chamber of Commerce (Jaycees). He donated his time generously to help these organizations help others, and always invited others to join. . . .

“One weekend when the Jaycees were having an event, Herb told me to bring my kids over. I remember my wife telling me that morning, ‘Come on we need to get ready to go to Herb’s event.’ He was just great to everyone he knew.”

“Herb was a very generous guy,” Bogusz said. “Every year he would give the maximum amount to the Combined Federal Campaign, and every year he would get the Eagle award for his contribution, but he didn’t want it known that he was giving that kind of money. . . .

“Herb always made time for his coworkers no matter how busy he was,” Giangrande said. “He always made himself available if you needed to talk. I remember Herb and I were working late at the office discussing different issues. When we were done, he would always ask about my family and talk about his. He had no children of his own, but his brother had kids. Herb used to love to tell me stories about them and what he was getting them for their birthdays or Christmas. I always told him, ‘Herb you’re spoiling those kids,’” Giangrande recalled. . . .

“Herb was one of the good ones and will certainly be missed,” Harrington said. “My heart goes out to his wife, and his family. He was a fine man and will never be forgotten. We lost a good one.”

Finally, also from a DCMA web page:

The individuals killed in the terrorist airliner crashes were Herbert W. Homer, DCMA’s Defense corporate executive serving at the Raytheon Company’s headquarters, and Peter Gay, Stanley Hall, David Kovalcin, and Kenneth Waldie, all senior officials of Raytheon. The five men, who worked closely together in providing military equipment to the armed forces, were traveling to California for a senior-level management meeting.

All on their way to a meeting--highly suspicious.

Malcolm, I realize that for you this is a kind of game, where you try to stick your thumb in Bush the Younger's eye because you hate him and his cronies and their politics so much, but the September 11 attacks weren't a game for these five men, all of whom had families who loved them. Why do you persist in [expletive deleted]ing on their graves?

 

[SOMERLED]

I think you meant to say spades. Anyway, then please explain to me why the New York 9/11 Truth Group, by it's own admission, gets only an average of 17 people at it's monthly meetings....out of a city population of over 7 million?

Explain to me how "justice is going to be served" when 99% of 9/11 troofers won't contribute a single dime to the cause and do absolutely NOTHING expect pontificate on the Internet? play_w("P0439200")

I can't speak for others. I can tell you that more and more people are learning the truth. There will come a time when so many people know the truth that change will have to follow.
What makes you think that all truthers are impotent or toothless, that all they can do is post on internet forums? I'm sure that's true for a large number, I'm sure plenty of truthers do feel that there's not much they can do.
Those truthers won't forget, they are on side and the numbers are increasing daily.
Where there's a will there's always a way.
I advocate for people to concentrate on their own neigbourhoods. Books, pamphlets etc. Change will come and with ot justice. The guilty ones will be dealt with one at a time and their supporters won't be there when that time comes. It's a realisation thing, change will come slowly but it will come. Because some truthers will just keep on coming.
The only thing that's holding truth at bay is the MSM and in that I include the BBC.
Moves are afoot to counteract that.
Cindy Sheehan for example, is going to run against Pelosi.
These neocons are not geared for being discovered or for failure. By that I mean they don't think failure/discovery can happen to them.

 

[SOMERLED]

The number of passengers is from the figures on pages 4-10 of the 9/11 Commission Report. (I excluded flight crew and hijackers from the number I used here, because they cannot be Fortune 500 executives and so they don't figure in the probability calculations).

The percentage I used for Fortune 500 executives is a rough estimate, based on the scheduling of the flights making the passenges primarily business travellers, the fact that most business travellers are executives of one sort or another, and the overall significance of large companies in the U.S. civilian work force. (22.3 million Fortune 500 employess in 1999: http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/oecon/chap4.htm. Total U.S. civilian labor force of approximately 138 million in 2000, from the 2000 U.S. Census, accessed using the EEO Data Tool here: http://www.census.gov/eeo2000/. Note that 22.3 million is 16% of 138 million.)

If you have information that the actual total number of Fortune 500 executives on the flights was significantly greater or smaller that 32, let me know and I'll revise the probability calculation.

As for the probability calculation itself, I learned how to do it in school, but the methods go back a few centuries. From Wikipedia:




I'm not really intererested in defending the validity or accuracy of this particular probability calculation with verbal argumentation. The only effective method of determining who is correctly calculating probabilities, and who is erring, is through significant cash wagers on future events, with each side betting based on their own determination of the probability of the outcomes. For instance, let each trial consist of thirty-two integers randomly selected with equal likelihood in the range of 1-500. Call it a hit if at least one number appears twice (or more) among the 32 selected numbers, and a miss otherwise. I'll gladly offer to pay you $20 for each miss, if you pay me $20 for each hit, over a course of let's say 50 trials. If you think the probability of a match among the 32 selected numbers is actually much lower (or anywhere less than 50%), and you're correct, then this is a sucker bet in your favor and you should take it. (But, fair warning: in fact, you'd be wrong and you'd be overwhelmingly likley to lose money.)

Respectfully,
Myriad

What about the passengers who are listed but their jobs are not. Don't you think it's fair that they be excluded?
I say that because it is not just Raytheon that is my final goal in this, it is
also Global Hawk technology.

 

[Belz...]

Seeing as you say it is, you won't mind producing some evidence, will you?

Fascinating. After 6 years, you still haven't learned that about the firefighting efforts on 9/11 ??

 

[Belz...]

Cited = what? and cited by whom?
Furthermore, what has this got to do with you?

This is a public forum, Malcolm.

Would you like to proceed to Offutt or are you going to insist that an egg travelling at a thousand miles an hour will go through a brick wall?

It's ALL in the speed, Malcolm. Please, please do yourself a favor and READ something.

Where do you get this stuff from?

It's called probabilities. That should also be a very interesting subject for you to learn.

Because after all, it was most certainly an inside job.

So far, you haven't been particularily convincing.

Those truthers won't forget, they are on side and the numbers are increasing daily.

Even if that were true, it would not make them right.

I'll show you proof of that, when you show me proof that Iran wants nuclear weapons.

Well, when you start producing enriched Uranium, what else are you trying to get ? Radioactive Kinder surprise eggs ?

 

[SOMERLED]

I've dealt briefly with this issue on Apollohoax; here is a more detailed treatment. Four Raytheon employees died in the September 11 attacks.




Begging the question of whether Raytheon was involved in the September 11 attacks.

Stanley R. Hall (American 77)

[qimg]http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/images/Victims/115.jpg[/qimg]

From an AOC (an association of electronic warfare professionals) article:




Hall worked for a Raytheon division near Los Angeles and was assigned as a liaison to the Pentagon. Why do you find it even remotely suspicious that he would be flying from Washington, D. C. to Los Angeles?

Peter A. Gay (American 11)

[qimg]http://www.091101memorial.org/AA11/photos/Gay-1.jpg[/qimg]

From a Chicago Tribune article:




Here is an excerpt from a tribute by Linda Gay.




From an article about Gay's father, Peter B. Gay, on the fifth anniversary of the attacks.




So, Malcolm, did Raytheon assign Gay to work in California in January, knowing that he'd refuse the transfer and commute by air, thus giving the company a way to kill him nine months later? Also, on a side note, can you explain why Gay's remains were found at the World Trade Center?

Kenneth Waldie (American 11)

[qimg]http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/images/full-size/waldie.kenneth.2.jpg[/qimg]

From a tribute on a web site for a scholarship in Waldie's honor:




David Kovalcin (American 11)

[qimg]http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/images/Victims/51.jpg[/qimg]

From a newspaper tribute:




I suppose you'll say that he was nervous two nights before because he'd discovered some terrible secret, and that's why "they" had to get rid of him, right, Malcolm?

In addition to these four Raytheon employees, Herbert Homer, a Defense Contract Management Agency (DCMA) employee, had 27 years' experience working with Raytheon as a DCMA representative.

Herbert Homer (United 175)

[No photo available]

From a DCMA web page:




Finally, also from a DCMA web page:




All on their way to a meeting--highly suspicious.

Malcolm, I realize that for you this is a kind of game, where you try to stick your thumb in Bush the Younger's eye because you hate him and his cronies and their politics so much, but the September 11 attacks weren't a game for these five men, all of whom had families who loved them. Why do you persist in [expletive deleted]ing on their graves?

You seem to be well informed, you omitted to mention that Homer was first liated as a casualty at the pentagon.
This following quote, is taken from this webpage,
http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?1370
The Department of Defense announced today that Herbert W. Homer, a civilian employee of the Defense Contract Management Agency, was among the passengers aboard United Airlines Flight # 175, which crashed into the World Trade Center. He was previously listed in error as unaccounted at the Pentagon.
The American workforce is around 150,000,000.
http://careers.stateuniversity.com/pages/838/American-Workforce-2004-14.html
The people who worked on Global Hawk in any senior manadement/serious capacity will be, say 150.
That's one in a million. It's a million to one that you'll have somebody from Global Hawk in any group.
TJX don't count, because they were travelling as a single unit.
We've got five up to now.
That doesn't mean that we're now looking at 5,000,000 to one because the increase is exponential or whatever.
At this moment in time, all I remember is that the increase in odds isn't linear.
I've only just found all this out, see what I say, the truth just keeps on coming.
There are two more yet,
Charles S Falkenberg
Carl Max Hammond Jr.
That's seven.
The odds on seven are more than 7,000,000 to one.
But I'll leave you with that figure for now, together with the reflection that time will show who is doing what on people's graves.

 

[SOMERLED]

The number of passengers is from the figures on pages 4-10 of the 9/11 Commission Report. (I excluded flight crew and hijackers from the number I used here, because they cannot be Fortune 500 executives and so they don't figure in the probability calculations).

The percentage I used for Fortune 500 executives is a rough estimate, based on the scheduling of the flights making the passenges primarily business travellers, the fact that most business travellers are executives of one sort or another, and the overall significance of large companies in the U.S. civilian work force. (22.3 million Fortune 500 employess in 1999: http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/oecon/chap4.htm. Total U.S. civilian labor force of approximately 138 million in 2000, from the 2000 U.S. Census, accessed using the EEO Data Tool here: http://www.census.gov/eeo2000/. Note that 22.3 million is 16% of 138 million.)

If you have information that the actual total number of Fortune 500 executives on the flights was significantly greater or smaller that 32, let me know and I'll revise the probability calculation.

As for the probability calculation itself, I learned how to do it in school, but the methods go back a few centuries. From Wikipedia:




I'm not really intererested in defending the validity or accuracy of this particular probability calculation with verbal argumentation. The only effective method of determining who is correctly calculating probabilities, and who is erring, is through significant cash wagers on future events, with each side betting based on their own determination of the probability of the outcomes. For instance, let each trial consist of thirty-two integers randomly selected with equal likelihood in the range of 1-500. Call it a hit if at least one number appears twice (or more) among the 32 selected numbers, and a miss otherwise. I'll gladly offer to pay you $20 for each miss, if you pay me $20 for each hit, over a course of let's say 50 trials. If you think the probability of a match among the 32 selected numbers is actually much lower (or anywhere less than 50%), and you're correct, then this is a sucker bet in your favor and you should take it. (But, fair warning: in fact, you'd be wrong and you'd be overwhelmingly likley to lose money.)

Respectfully,
Myriad

I find your introduction of Fortune 500 both bewildering and irrelevant.
Respectfully,
M Kirkman LLB Hons.

 

[SOMERLED]

It most certaily was not an inside job. Only a fool would believe it was.

The evidence is there to settle this dispute conclusively.
The Pentagon videos, serial numbers from the engine of the plane that hit the south tower, take off details from Ofutt on 9/11, proper testing of GZ and the landfill sites, to name but four.
Kindly tell me why a president would keep that information from the people when 45% are asking for it ?
Why would a president, who only just scraped in by a few votes, alienate so many voters by keeping such information secret ?

 

[Myriad]

What about the passengers who are listed but their jobs are not. Don't you think it's fair that they be excluded?

Yes, I do think it's fair. I respect the privacy wishes of families who did not want their loved ones' jobs listed. Perhaps they don't define their family members' lives and identities by their jobs. As it's noboby else's business, I think it's perfectly fair to everyone else also.

I say that because it is not just Raytheon that is my final goal in this, it is also Global Hawk technology.

If you cannot do basic mathematics, then your chance of developing advanced technologies like Global Hawk are extremely poor. However, with loadsa dosh you can probably buy one from Raytheon, eventually, once they have it developed to the point where a declassified civilian version becomes available. (The microwave emitter in your microwave oven was once Raytheon-developed top secret military technology too.)

The people who worked on Global Hawk in any senior manadement/serious capacity will be, say 150.

Raytheon had 87,200 employees in 2001 (Raytheon 2001 Annual Report: http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/84/841/84193/items/154647/2001ar.pdf) So, if you're just guessing that Gay, Hall, Kovalcin, and Waldie were all among the supposed 150 Global Hawk elite, the probability that your guess is correct is 1 in (150/87,400)^4, or less than 1 in 100 billion. Taking conspiracist claims of Peter Gay's direct involvement in managing Global Hawk at face value, that increases the odds to 1 in 198 million. Sorry, but that the others were involved with "electronic systems" and/or worked on U.S. Department of Defense projects doesn't shorten those odds much farther (you might get it down to about 1 in 25 million), as a large fraction of Raytheon employees fit that description.

If they did work on Global Hawk, then that leaves 146 other people who then knew that they too could be killed at any moment for the same reason, whether they spoke out or not (since there's no evidence that any of the four victims spoke out about anything before their deaths). Yet none of them said anything. How strange.

In any case, the probability of 146 people keeping a secret for 6 years, if each of them has an unrealistically high 99.5% chance of keeping the secret in any given year, is 1 in 80. Every additional year that goes by, there's another >50-50 chance of someone in that group -- an aging executive with failing health, an engineer with a guilty conscience, an executive assistant who got religion -- coming forward with hard evidence. So, all you have to do is wait, and the consipracy will become evident.

Of course, if terrorists actually killed those people, you'll wait forever.

You might wish to take up another hobby while waiting, to pass the time.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[8den]

Cited = what? and cited by whom?
Furthermore, what has this got to do with you?

To address the second part first. You demanded proof that Iran was engaging in a nuclear weapons program, I offered it. Cited? Cited? Do you bother to do any research, oh no wait, it's Kirkman here, of course you didn't. It's fair to assume you've probably never heard of the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency.

GlennB what ktesibios says. I've worked on a couple of news stories about the Iranian nuclear program and thats about it. My knowledge of Iran's nuclear program comes from cutting the same 14 shots, that are the only internal footage of Iran's nuclear program.

The general consensus in the international community is that Iran would like to, and the body of evidence is that they are trying to, but theres no smoking gun. Considering during the Iran Iraqi war, Saddam was numerically outnumbered and tipped the balance in his favour, by using WMD aganist Iran with little international outcry, and with Israeli's missiles probably pointing at them, a nuclear program is something they either have, or feel desperate enough to be doing everything in their power to get them.

 

[SOMERLED]

Yes, I do think it's fair. I respect the privacy wishes of families who did not want their loved ones' jobs listed. Perhaps they don't define their family members' lives and identities by their jobs. As it's noboby else's business, I think it's perfectly fair to everyone else also.




If you cannot do basic mathematics, then your chance of developing advanced technologies like Global Hawk are extremely poor. However, with loadsa dosh you can probably buy one from Raytheon, eventually, once they have it developed to the point where a declassified civilian version becomes available. (The microwave emitter in your microwave oven was once Raytheon-developed top secret military technology too.)




Raytheon had 87,200 employees in 2001 (Raytheon 2001 Annual Report: http://library.corporate-ir.net/library/84/841/84193/items/154647/2001ar.pdf) So, if you're just guessing that Gay, Hall, Kovalcin, and Waldie were all among the supposed 150 Global Hawk elite, the probability that your guess is correct is 1 in (150/87,400)^4, or less than 1 in 100 billion. Taking conspiracist claims of Peter Gay's direct involvement in managing Global Hawk at face value, that increases the odds to 1 in 198 million. Sorry, but that the others were involved with "electronic systems" and/or worked on U.S. Department of Defense projects doesn't shorten those odds much farther (you might get it down to about 1 in 25 million), as a large fraction of Raytheon employees fit that description.

If they did work on Global Hawk, then that leaves 146 other people who then knew that they too could be killed at any moment for the same reason, whether they spoke out or not (since there's no evidence that any of the four victims spoke out about anything before their deaths). Yet none of them said anything. How strange.

In any case, the probability of 146 people keeping a secret for 6 years, if each of them has an unrealistically high 99.5% chance of keeping the secret in any given year, is 1 in 80. Every additional year that goes by, there's another >50-50 chance of someone in that group -- an aging executive with failing health, an engineer with a guilty conscience, an executive assistant who got religion -- coming forward with hard evidence. So, all you have to do is wait, and the consipracy will become evident.

Of course, if terrorists actually killed those people, you'll wait forever.

You might wish to take up another hobby while waiting, to pass the time.

Respectfully,
Myriad

The 146 people are not required to keep a 'secret' by keeping 'quiet'. Merely intimidated away from a particular line of thought.
Nudging americans away from lines of thought, certainly seems to be a growth industry nowadays.

 

[MRC_Hans]

The evidence is there to settle this dispute conclusively.
The Pentagon videos, serial numbers from the engine of the plane that hit the south tower, take off details from Ofutt on 9/11, proper testing of GZ and the landfill sites, to name but four.
Kindly tell me why a president would keep that information from the people when 45% are asking for it ?
Why would a president, who only just scraped in by a few votes, alienate so many voters by keeping such information secret ?

Reasons:

1) A very comprehensive examination and report has already been undertaken.

2) Those are just the question you would like to ask, not 45% of the population.

3) Very few people, even among the hard-core truthers, subscribe to the no-plane thesis.

Finally, what is your evidence that anybody is keeping that information secret?

Hans

 

[SOMERLED]

To address the second part first. You demanded proof that Iran was engaging in a nuclear weapons program, I offered it. Cited? Cited? Do you bother to do any research, oh no wait, it's Kirkman here, of course you didn't. It's fair to assume you've probably never heard of the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency.

GlennB what ktesibios says. I've worked on a couple of news stories about the Iranian nuclear program and thats about it. My knowledge of Iran's nuclear program comes from cutting the same 14 shots, that are the only internal footage of Iran's nuclear program.

The general consensus in the international community is that Iran would like to, and the body of evidence is that they are trying to, but theres no smoking gun. Considering during the Iran Iraqi war, Saddam was numerically outnumbered and tipped the balance in his favour, by using WMD aganist Iran with little international outcry, and with Israeli's missiles probably pointing at them, a nuclear program is something they either have, or feel desperate enough to be doing everything in their power to get them.

With respect, I am not convinced that you have answered my question.
What has it got to do with you, what an independent democracy decides to do.
This is important because ot goes to the root of the hypocrisy that I have witnessed on here.
Any objections to what Iran may or may not do, can only be based on speculation. Any potential action against Iran can only be justified by the doctrine of a pre - emptive strike.
That doctrine is based as far away from absolute proof as you can get.
On the one hand 9/11 deniers insist on absolute proof on each and every small point. They deny suspicion, excessive coincidence, subjective cause, objective cause and probable cause.
It is therefore the height of hypocrisy to rely upon suspicion of Iran's intentions.