[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Malcolm:

No, I am not saying the tower "pancaked", but nice try to sucker me in, which would be followed by an ALL CAPS posting of...

"YOU ARE WRONG. YOUR VERY OWN NIST HAS DISMISSED THE PANCAKE THEORY."

No, what I am saying is that the collapse initiation involved A large, 20 storey mass falling onto the rest of the building essentially from 20-24 feet (three storeys gap from impact zone).

This would be similar, in terms of what would happen to the contents of the building, to a fist hitting a big mac from about 10-12" above it. the contents would expel horizontally outward.

Another, less accurate, but more comedic analogy, would be the "Animal House" scene where John Belushi squishes his cheeks together while his mouth is full of food, and then says "I'm a zit".

TAM:)
You say the collapse was not caused by explosives.
You say the collapse was not a pancake collapse.
Would you care to tell us how the buildings did collapse. Kindly don't leave out the 60 mph sideways ejection of massive stell girders or the blowing UP of some material.
Here's a video you can otherwiae explain,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-n3XOb3uAQ
I am going to enjoy this.
 
[
quote=malcolm kirkman;2736925]I'm not sure I have properly explained the system involved.

I, on the other hand, am quite sure that you don't know what you're talking about.


quote=malcolm kirkman;2736925]
An executive jet already airborne, lifts up and guides the attack plane by remote control. This system can guide the attack plane, left, right - I suppose port. starboard to be pedantic. Up, down etc, even speed up or slow down.
No big deal so far.
Because the attack plane is coming from Offutt (due east) it cannot be flown down the full length of Manhattan Island, as the first plane was, because by now, all the worlds cameras will be on it and film the accoutrements. It has to circle and come in from the sea. During this manouevre it is guided by hand from the control plane. Because of this turn, the attack plane on tower 2 does not have the luxury of a steady straight flight in, as the first attack plane had. Hence the dithering.


Edited by chillzero: 
Moderated thread
No "attack planes" took off from Offutt. You are lying. There is absolutely no evidence to support your fantasy regarding remote-controlled planes. When will you admit that your falsehoods about the imaginary armored airliners have been exposed?
 
This smoke that is dust. What is this dust made of and how did it become 'dust'?
The NIST report has an analysis of the dust. Look it up yourself. When large buildings collapse, for whatever reason, parts of them and their content are turned to dust. If you think very hard, I'm sure you'll be able to figure out why.

Hans
 
No.
You say explosions can be caused by things other than CD.
You now prove that all the explosions were not caused by CD.
Fail on just one and we have an inside job.
Prove a negative fallacy, plus onus of proof is on claimant. Please try harder next time.

Hans
 
The main point of this particular aspect is that the ability to have an unmanned large plane take off by remote control was available well before 9/11.
The next aspect is that the ability to deliver such an unmanned plane in detail enough to land it by GPS (unmanned) was also available prior to 9/11.
If you can land the plane, then you can most certainly draw it into a homing beacon. You have a guaranteed take off and delivery. You have no humans to concern yoursellf with. You have no problems connected with the vagaries that might well arise with some form of hijack. The explosives already in the building are primed and waiting, both towers have to be hit. You will most certainly plump for the Offutt remote control lift off and delivery over any other option.



Malcolm, you are still not getting it. What part of "autolands do not mean remote control" did you not understand?

You seem to be under the impression that an airplane that can perform an autoland(GPS, or ILS) can be flown by remote control - or worse - is being flown by remote control. Do I have that right? Do you think the JPALS precision approach system precludes pilots? Yes or no?

Also, what do you think is more difficult: fitting a stock 767 with GPS autoland capability - or - auto takeoff capability?



The part I bolded shows just how clueless you really are about all this. Draw it to a homing beacon? The very first Sperry autopilots were doing this in the 1940's. Hello?? Are you even reading posts? Next thing you know, you'll be telling me that planes can hold a heading or level off at a preset altitude. Sheesh!

Please read this before continuing to make a fool of yourself: Autopilot wiki
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure I have properly explained the system involved.
An executive jet already airborne, lifts up and guides the attack plane by remote control. This system can guide the attack plane, left, right - I suppose port. starboard to be pedantic. Up, down etc, even speed up or slow down.
No big deal so far.
Because the attack plane is coming from Offutt (due east) it cannot be flown down the full length of Manhattan Island, as the first plane was, because by now, all the worlds cameras will be on it and film the accoutrements. It has to circle and come in from the sea. During this manouevre it is guided by hand from the control plane. Because of this turn, the attack plane on tower 2 does not have the luxury of a steady straight flight in, as the first attack plane had. Hence the dithering.


If you only knew what a "stock" 767 is capable of.....

Let me clue you in on a little something Mal: You wouldn't need an executive jet to guide the airplane, that's what the JPALS portable landing station would be doing and the aircrafts on-board autopilot computers would be doing. Prior to "landing" - the plane could navigate to the area by either GPS, or inertial reference via the LNAV/VNAV function. You don't need an operator on the ground(or in the air). You've been watching too many movies... or reading about too many 1950's NASA test flights.

The only thing you'd need to fit to your imaginary, armored robodrone is : bigger engines to get the thing off the ground(PW 4098s, Trent 800s or GE90s), an autotakeoff module, GPS(if you're refitting a 767 built prior to 2000), a JPALS/LAAS receiver, and a few dozen mechanics and engineers that can keep a secret. Oh and the cooperation of AA and UA(UA 175 and AA 11 did not land) and the FAA(ATC).
 
I had no difficulty believing the OCT for years. It was only when I learned of WTC7 dropping at or around free fall speed, that I realised something was badly wrong. When a steel and concrete building is clearly demolished by explosives, when that demolition is admitted and when one realises that those explosives could not possibly have been planted/set in place on 9/11 itself, then it is other people who then disturb me. I can accept someone who has such a busy day that they have no time to review material that is not on the MSM, still believing the OCT (as I did). My problems now revolve around people who claim to be au fait, yet still deny the truth.
Can you explain this?

just how fast is free fall?
 
No.
You say explosions can be caused by things other than CD.
You now prove that all the explosions were not caused by CD.
Fail on just one and we have an inside job.


:dl:

Sorry, Malcolm, but it absolutely does not work that way. The burden is on you to prove that at least one explosion was caused by explosives. You may not claim that "controlled demolition" is the default explanation.
 
Malcolm:

I didnt say they didnt pancake, I didnt say either way. You accused me of saying they pancaked, and I said that I didnt say that.

As for how it collapsed, I am not a structural engineer, so I am not qualified to explain...I guess you are, so you explain it to us.

TAM:)
 
No.
You say explosions can be caused by things other than CD.
You now prove that all the explosions were not caused by CD.
Fail on just one and we have an inside job.
Explosives, explosions, and loud noises: A Rant

Executive Summary
The use of "explosive" and "explosion" interchangeably in discussion is erroneous; and the use of "explosions" as evidence of "explosives" is fundamentally flawed.

Loud Noises (aka bangs, booms, cracks, explosions (heard but not seen) etc)
Q. What are loud noises?
A. Within the context of this post I will be defining loud noises as "Sound or a sound that is loud, unpleasant, unexpected, or undesired." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/noise (def. #1)

Explosions
Q. What are explosions?
A. Wikipedia defines ExplosionsWP as "a sudden increase in volume and release of energy in a violent manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases. An explosion causes pressure waves in the local medium in which it occurs. Explosions are categorized as deflagrations if these waves are subsonic and detonations if they are supersonic (shock waves)."

Q. What are causes of explosions?
A. The Wikipedia article on ExplosionsWP lists a number of causes of explosions:
  • Chemical explosions
  • Nuclear explosions
  • Steam boiler explosions
  • Electrical explosions
  • Volcanic explosions
  • Astronomical event explosions and
  • Exploding animals
Explosives
Q. What are explosives?
A. Wikipedia defines ExplosivesWP as "a material that either is chemically or otherwise energetically unstable or produces a sudden expansion of the material usually accompanied by the production of heat and large changes in pressure (and typically also a flash and/or loud noise) upon initiation; this is called the explosion."

The Logic
Argument 1
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: An explosive is detonated;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is a logically sound argument. P1 is true by definition of what an explosive does and is included in the definition of things that can cause explosions.
This is known as affirming the antecedent and is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: A;
C: Therefore, B.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 2
P1: If there is an explosion, then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, it was heard as a loud noise.

This is a logically sound argument. P1 is true as, by definition, explosions create shock-waves. The shock-waves are heard and meet the criteria of being a loud noise.
This is known as affirming the antecedent and is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: A;
C: Therefore, B.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 3
P1: If there is an explosion then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: There was a loud noise;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is not a logically sound argument as there are, by definition of what a loud noise is, causes of loud noises that are not explosions (ex. steel bar snapping, book slamming on the floor, etc).
This is known as affirming the consequent and is a logical fallacy. It is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: B;
C: Therefore, A.

The generalized expression of why it is fallacious is:
P1: If A then B;
P2: If C then B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Expressed as such, it is clear why it is not a sound logical argument.

It can be made in to a sound logical argument with the addition of another premise (which must be shown to be true), such that:
P1: If A then B;
P2: Only A can cause B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Therefore, we would have to be able to say:
P1: If there is an explosion then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: Only explosions can cause loud noises;
P3: There was a loud noise;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is clearly an untenable argument.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 4
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, there was an explosive was detonated.

This is not a logically sound argument as there are, by definition of what a loud noise is, causes of loud noises that are not explosions (ex. steel bar snapping, book slamming on the floor, etc).
This is known as affirming the consequent and is a logical fallacy. It is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: B;
C: Therefore, A.

The generalized expression of why it is fallacious is:
P1: If A then B;
P2: If C then B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Expressed as such, it is clear why it is not a sound logical argument.

It can be made in to a sound logical argument with the addition of another premise (which must be shown to be true), such that:
P1: If A then B;
P2: Only A can cause B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

This requirement means that for proponent of CD in the WTC to claim that witness reports of explosions are evidence of the use of explosives the following must be true:
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: Only explosives can cause explosions;
P3: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, there was an explosive was detonated.

This clearly runs counter to the definition of what an explosion is, and is shown to not be true by the examples cited for causes of explosions that do not fall in to the category of explosives. Therefore, this is also an untenable argument.

What does this mean for discussion?
It means that...
  • ... if a witness reported hearing a loud noise and called it an explosion we can not conclude it was caused by an explosion
  • ... if a witness reported seeing an explosion we can not conclude it was caused by an explosive
  • ... the term "explosion" and "explosive" can not be used interchangeably
http://arkanwolfshade.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!9E151F6EB6C7A35D!347.entry
 
No.
You say explosions can be caused by things other than CD.
You now prove that all the explosions were not caused by CD.
Fail on just one and we have an inside job.

Illogical argument. You cannot prove a negative. Noone can prove that something was not caused by X. You must prove that the explosions were caused by CD, as it is the hypothesis which is opposed to the widely accepted account of events that day.

Come on man, you should know better than to argue in such a fashion.

TAM:)
 
If you only knew what a "stock" 767 is capable of.....

Let me clue you in on a little something Mal: You wouldn't need an executive jet to guide the airplane, that's what the JPALS portable landing station would be doing and the aircrafts on-board autopilot computers would be doing. Prior to "landing" - the plane could navigate to the area by either GPS, or inertial reference via the LNAV/VNAV function. You don't need an operator on the ground(or in the air). You've been watching too many movies... or reading about too many 1950's NASA test flights.

The only thing you'd need to fit to your imaginary, armored robodrone is : bigger engines to get the thing off the ground(PW 4098s, Trent 800s or GE90s), an autotakeoff module, GPS(if you're refitting a 767 built prior to 2000), a JPALS/LAAS receiver, and a few dozen mechanics and engineers that can keep a secret. Oh and the cooperation of AA and UA(UA 175 and AA 11 did not land) and the FAA(ATC).
These planes that run by autopilot.
Can this autopilot be over ruled by remote control?
 
I rather prefer this dust analysis, much superior, don't you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfelqXBgyPw

No, actually.

1. Chain of custody in serious question.
2. The length of time prior to collection, as well as the location of the dust leaves serious doubts, as CONTAMINATION almost certainly occured.
3. Author of study is bias and a known 9/11 truth CTist.
4. He is a physicist, not a chemist or a crime scene investigator.

Thats just for starters, so no, it is not a good dust analysis.

I know there are better ones out there, let me know when you find them.

TAM:)
 
acceleration due to gravity is a constant, but the resulting changes in velocity might be effected by the resistances you mention.

TAM:)
 
Explosives, explosions, and loud noises: A Rant

Executive Summary
The use of "explosive" and "explosion" interchangeably in discussion is erroneous; and the use of "explosions" as evidence of "explosives" is fundamentally flawed.

Loud Noises (aka bangs, booms, cracks, explosions (heard but not seen) etc)
Q. What are loud noises?
A. Within the context of this post I will be defining loud noises as "Sound or a sound that is loud, unpleasant, unexpected, or undesired." http://www.thefreedictionary.com/noise (def. #1)

Explosions
Q. What are explosions?
A. Wikipedia defines ExplosionsWP as "a sudden increase in volume and release of energy in a violent manner, usually with the generation of high temperatures and the release of gases. An explosion causes pressure waves in the local medium in which it occurs. Explosions are categorized as deflagrations if these waves are subsonic and detonations if they are supersonic (shock waves)."

Q. What are causes of explosions?
A. The Wikipedia article on ExplosionsWP lists a number of causes of explosions:
  • Chemical explosions
  • Nuclear explosions
  • Steam boiler explosions
  • Electrical explosions
  • Volcanic explosions
  • Astronomical event explosions and
  • Exploding animals
Explosives
Q. What are explosives?
A. Wikipedia defines ExplosivesWP as "a material that either is chemically or otherwise energetically unstable or produces a sudden expansion of the material usually accompanied by the production of heat and large changes in pressure (and typically also a flash and/or loud noise) upon initiation; this is called the explosion."

The Logic
Argument 1
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: An explosive is detonated;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is a logically sound argument. P1 is true by definition of what an explosive does and is included in the definition of things that can cause explosions.
This is known as affirming the antecedent and is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: A;
C: Therefore, B.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 2
P1: If there is an explosion, then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, it was heard as a loud noise.

This is a logically sound argument. P1 is true as, by definition, explosions create shock-waves. The shock-waves are heard and meet the criteria of being a loud noise.
This is known as affirming the antecedent and is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: A;
C: Therefore, B.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 3
P1: If there is an explosion then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: There was a loud noise;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is not a logically sound argument as there are, by definition of what a loud noise is, causes of loud noises that are not explosions (ex. steel bar snapping, book slamming on the floor, etc).
This is known as affirming the consequent and is a logical fallacy. It is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: B;
C: Therefore, A.

The generalized expression of why it is fallacious is:
P1: If A then B;
P2: If C then B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Expressed as such, it is clear why it is not a sound logical argument.

It can be made in to a sound logical argument with the addition of another premise (which must be shown to be true), such that:
P1: If A then B;
P2: Only A can cause B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Therefore, we would have to be able to say:
P1: If there is an explosion then you will hear a loud noise;
P2: Only explosions can cause loud noises;
P3: There was a loud noise;
C: Therefore, there was an explosion.

This is clearly an untenable argument.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Argument 4
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, there was an explosive was detonated.

This is not a logically sound argument as there are, by definition of what a loud noise is, causes of loud noises that are not explosions (ex. steel bar snapping, book slamming on the floor, etc).
This is known as affirming the consequent and is a logical fallacy. It is expressed as:
P1: If A then B;
P2: B;
C: Therefore, A.

The generalized expression of why it is fallacious is:
P1: If A then B;
P2: If C then B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

Expressed as such, it is clear why it is not a sound logical argument.

It can be made in to a sound logical argument with the addition of another premise (which must be shown to be true), such that:
P1: If A then B;
P2: Only A can cause B;
P3: B;
C: Therefore, A.

This requirement means that for proponent of CD in the WTC to claim that witness reports of explosions are evidence of the use of explosives the following must be true:
P1: If an explosive is detonated then there will be an explosion;
P2: Only explosives can cause explosions;
P3: There was an explosion;
C: Therefore, there was an explosive was detonated.

This clearly runs counter to the definition of what an explosion is, and is shown to not be true by the examples cited for causes of explosions that do not fall in to the category of explosives. Therefore, this is also an untenable argument.

What does this mean for discussion?
It means that...
  • ... if a witness reported hearing a loud noise and called it an explosion we can not conclude it was caused by an explosion
  • ... if a witness reported seeing an explosion we can not conclude it was caused by an explosive
  • ... the term "explosion" and "explosive" can not be used interchangeably
http://arkanwolfshade.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!9E151F6EB6C7A35D!347.entry

A very comprehensive list.
The towers were blown up.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom