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Dr. Ron Paul - The People Choice?

Oakheart said:
Here is the newest stats I could find I will look for the oldest.
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I can't say for sure since you didn't provide a link, but it's lilely that a good number of the countries that rank better than the US in the categories you list are European, and even further from the libertopian libertarian philosophy than the US.

Oh, and I bet North Korea ranks well is some of those categories. ;)
 
ponderingturtle you are right about my ignorance although I can't say "incredibly" I looked it up and I was confusing small pox with plague. Which is still around here in the Midwest although it is certainly not in plague proportions. I thought they were the same thing.

I like your avatar by the way I wonder who's couch it was?

And I will have to concede that the center for disease control has made good progress (when they weren't infecting parts of the population on purpose). Disease is something that is bigger than one state can deal with.

So I am only left with War, Poverty, Murder, Rape, and the like.

How about subsidies? How do you feel about providing funds to one part of a market and how that might affect another part of the market? This is a favorite fix for social problems. Seems to me growing up on the farm that it was mostly abused and did as much harm to others as it did good to the ones who got it.
 
varwoche said:
I can't say for sure since you didn't provide a link, but it's lilely that a good number of the countries that rank better than the US in the categories you list are European, and even further from the libertopian libertarian philosophy than the US.

Oh, and I bet North Korea ranks well is some of those categories. ;)
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I can't provide links yet still too newbieefied.
No government no matter how tyrannical (social) can cure social ills at least none of the current systems. Only when the individuals take responsibility for their actions can it even be fought. Although the honor shame system has been shown to be effective in some cases.
 
Oakheart said:
ponderingturtle you are right about my ignorance although I can't say "incredibly" I looked it up and I was confusing small pox with plague. Which is still around here in the Midwest although it is certainly not in plague proportions. I thought they were the same thing.
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Most certainly not, as the bubonic plague is a bacteria and will always have a natural reservoir in the wild. Most virus's are much more specific as to their victims.

How about subsidies? How do you feel about providing funds to one part of a market and how that might affect another part of the market? This is a favorite fix for social problems. Seems to me growing up on the farm that it was mostly abused and did as much harm to others as it did good to the ones who got it.
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Depends on the exact subsidy. In generally no, for one they make it almost impossible for much of the third world to get out of poverty by keeping food prices artificially low. Of course if food prices where hirer then there would be a lot more people who would have to make decisions between say rent and food.

Now for say paying farmers to leave land fallow for wildfowl nesting, I think such a program could be very effective.
 
Oakheart said:
I can't provide links yet still too newbieefied.
No government no matter how tyrannical (social) can cure social ills at least none of the current systems. Only when the individuals take responsibility for their actions can it even be fought. Although the honor shame system has been shown to be effective in some cases.
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So because no medicine has stopped people from dieing eventually the whole medical establishment is immoral? That seems to be very similar to your argument.
 
Cleon said:
Here is why Ron Paul hasn't got a shot in hell.

There are three main groups of people in the Republican party. There's a good amount of overlap, and the descriptions don't necessarily apply to every single individual, but generally speaking in the GOP you can find three factions:
  1. Neocons and Reagan Republicans--people who are mainly concerned about a strong foreign policy, who think the "War on Terror" is the most important issue right now.
  2. Christian fundamentalists (a.k.a. the "religious right")--the Dobson/Robertson/Falwell crowd.
  3. Small-government conservatives and libertarians.
...
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Cleon, I think you've left out the category that is the real power in the Republican Party: The Big Business faction. They significantly differ from the true small government conservatives in that they prefer active government that maximizes profits, up to and including "corporate welfare." Sure they have overlap with small government crowd in that they want less government "regulation" when it means that profit is threatened. In that way they pay lip service to libertarian sensibilities to garner that crowd's support in the same way they've made a bargain with the theocrats to build the Republican grand coalition post-Goldwater.
 
hgc said:
Cleon, I think you've left out the category that is the real power in the Republican Party: The Big Business faction. They significantly differ from the true small government conservatives in that they prefer active government that maximizes profits, up to and including "corporate welfare." Sure they have overlap with small government crowd in that they want less government "regulation" when it means that profit is threatened. In that way they pay lip service to libertarian sensibilities to garner that crowd's support in the same way they've made a bargain with the theocrats to build the Republican grand coalition post-Goldwater.
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Well, first of all, I hardly think this is limited to the Republicans. The Republicans are just a little more open about it. :D

Second, while I agree with you that big business is a very real power, I think the scope is slightly different. Nobody--and I mean nobody--campaigns on promises of corporate welfare. The closest anyone came was Reagan's "trickle-down" economics, which even Bush the Elder thought was "voodoo economics."

The only time you see candidates campaign on big-business benefits is when it overlaps with small-government conservatism; promises of tax cuts, deregulation, and so forth. I agree with you that their interests are hardly identical to those of the libertarian crowd, but promises of corporate payoffs are normally made behind closed doors in exchange for bribes campaign contributions, not something you address publicly as a way to garner votes.

So I generally put those sorts of machinations in the "financial" scope of electioneering, as opposed to the "getting people to vote for you" scope.



(Why yes, I have been coding Java apps all day. Why do you ask?)
 
ponderingturtle said:
Yes. See the Aleutian Islands in WWII.
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Alaska wasn't a state in 1942.

However, if you are counting any US "territories" as "invasion of the US" then you can add others places like Guam, Wake Island, and even the Philippines (which at the time was a US Commonwealth).
 
Oakheart said:
Sadly, I am capable of that. However, it seems to be a major part of his ideas that government mostly causes more harm than good when they create an agency to solve some problem or another.
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Yeah, damn right. Look at that Libertopia, Somalia, where they have managed to abolish government and all its myriad ills, and they're quite capitalist, and are at the leading edge of progression and freedom as a result. Lead on, Ron Paul! To the Promised Land!
 
Well lots of interesting off shoots. Good at least there is something to discuss. So if not Ron Paul then which one are you really looking at? AS far as my issues go. End prohibition, balanced budget, conservation, Iraq, No more pork, more local control of government, and a Fair tax code I am still with ROn he only comes out badly on conservation so ...
 
ponderingturtle said:
So because no medicine has stopped people from dieing eventually the whole medical establishment is immoral? That seems to be very similar to your argument.
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Sorry about your mis understanding I did say I would have to concede the health care part because the center for disease control has been quite effective when they weren't infecting people on purpose.

but I also tried to carry on with my main argument about bureaucracy which is where it got tangled.

Think about this and I hope someone can tell me I am wrong but I would bet that at least 50% of all Americans get money form the government in one form or another. Start with me my salary is 100% from taxes.

anyone else Students, police fire military. I bet if we all tried we couldn't even name half of the agencies that are currently operating???

Peace


G
 
geni said:
Slavery?
Gone
Small pox?
Gone
Total lack of sanitation?
Gone
very high rates of illeracy?
Gone

As usual societly has the memory of a concussed goldfish.
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"What did the Romans ever do for us?"
 
Well, I took a look at his Issues page, and I agree with him on all but two. His "secure the border" talk seems a little anti-libertarian to me. I don't think that we should deny illegals hospital care or schooling. I also don't want to end birthright citizenship. He says the often touted "No Amnesty." Well, what does he plan to do with the millions of illegals here?

He is also super pro-life, which is definitely anti-libertarian. As of now, I am pro-choice. To quote his bill:

SEC. 2. FINDING AND DECLARATION.

(a) Finding- The Congress finds that present day scientific evidence indicates a significant likelihood that actual human life exists from conception.
(b) Declaration- Upon the basis of this finding, and in the exercise of the powers of the Congress--
(1) the Congress declares that--
(A) human life shall be deemed to exist from conception, without regard to race, sex, age, health, defect, or condition of dependency; and
(B) the term `person' shall include all human life as defined in subparagraph (A); and
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I am not aware of the "present day scientific evidence" that gives credence to such a Catholic interpretation.

ETA: Off to see if he passes the Gay Litmus Test.
 
Cleon said:
Here is why Ron Paul hasn't got a shot in hell.

There are three main groups of people in the Republican party. There's a good amount of overlap, and the descriptions don't necessarily apply to every single individual, but generally speaking in the GOP you can find three factions:
  1. Neocons and Reagan Republicans--people who are mainly concerned about a strong foreign policy, who think the "War on Terror" is the most important issue right now.
  2. Christian fundamentalists (a.k.a. the "religious right")--the Dobson/Robertson/Falwell crowd.
  3. Small-government conservatives and libertarians.
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You will not find any Neocons in grassroots America. They can only be found in downtown Washington DC at the American Enterprise Institute and nowhere else in the Republican Party.

Regan Republicans are the same as Regan Democrats and Regan Independents. These are people who could vote in either party come the presidential election and Ron Paul would certainly have a chance with them.

The Religious Right would not pick Paul as their first choice but against a Democrat they would.

Ron Paul certainly has a chance in surprising the Republican Party in the early primaries the way Pat Buchanan did in New Hampshire. My prediction is if Paul scored some early successes, then big media will call up the guns and do everything to bring him down. They did it with Pat Buchanan, they did it with Ross Perot, they did it with Howard Dean, and they will do it with Ron Paul.
 
Tony said:
I'm surely not against him. I've thrown my principle support behind Obama, but I'm also rooting for Paul, but I agree with Cleon that he hasn't got a chance in hell.
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And you think Obama does, that’s a laugh.
In time, your reality check will come.
 
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