Dr. Ron Paul - The People Choice?

[geni]

Slavery still exists in this country and it isn't wage slavery either.

Numbers are far far lower. You view less than 100% sucess as failure?

Sanitation and small pox were not solved by government but by scientists who educated us and found our about vaccines.

Mass vaccination was funded by the goverment.

 

[Oakheart]

Numbers are far far lower. You view less than 100% success as failure?

You are correct! The numbers are far far lower. I am sure you know that it was public outcry that freed them the government did not want to do it and it did not require a permanent agency to do it either.




Mass vaccination was funded by the government.

They didn't pay for mine or my children's they did require them which isn't a bad idea at all. Our government even allows foreign dignitaries to bring their slaves here and keep them. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the commas are for Reager.

 

[Steven Howard]

Is he a Doctor of Medicine or a Doctor of Divinity?

 

[Oakheart]

Is he a Doctor of Medicine or a Doctor of Divinity?

Obstetrics (OBGYN) you can read up on him at his website ronpaul2008 I'd post a link but I am not allowed as of yet.

 

[Tony]

but we have all the same ones for some reason.

No we don't.

 

[Oakheart]

It took a bit of going back to find quote. May be I should say they have all been solved: War, poverty, illness, theft, drunkenness, gang violence, murder, suicide, fraud, social inequality, illiteracy. Riddle me this Tony what social ills have been solved though bureaucracy?

 

[geni]

It took a bit of going back to find quote. May be I should say they have all been solved: War,

Has the US been invaded since one of the wars of 1812?

poverty, illness, theft, drunkenness, gang violence, murder, suicide, fraud, social inequality, illiteracy. Riddle me this Tony what social ills have been solved though bureaucracy?

Which ones have been solved through the lack of goverment? We tried this small goverment thing in the UK. We ended up a company running a chunk of India and private enterpise building some stupid transportation projects with massive cost overuns and running them badly.

 

[Tony]

It took a bit of going back to find quote. May be I should say they have all been solved: War, poverty, illness, theft, drunkenness, gang violence, murder, suicide, fraud, social inequality, illiteracy. Riddle me this Tony what social ills have been solved though bureaucracy?

LOL So because we haven't totally eradicated those problems, the government has done nothing. You need to read a little american history. Poverty, illness, theft, social inequality, illiteracy and crime are substantially lower today than in times past. Of course the government doesn't get all the credit, but it played a role in diminishing those problems. Your "all or nothing" approach where you demand that the government either go-away or totaly wipe-out those problems you mentioned is the same type of thoughtless utopianism found at the other extreme.

(writer's note: Notice how he conveniently left off slavery?)

 

[ponderingturtle]

Slavery still exists in this country and it isn't wage slavery either. High school literacy rates are 50% and that is after 13 years of public schooling. Sanitation and small pox were not solved by government but by scientists who educated us and found our about vaccines.

Having a vaccine is not enough to eradicate a disease. In fact if not for the combined US and Soviet effort small pox would be alive and well in the world today.

You need an infrastructure to implement a well organized public health program to get these effects, and that is what the governments provided. Look at countries with less effective governmental public health programs and how polio is making such a nice comeback in many areas.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Has the US been invaded since one of the wars of 1812?

Yes. See the Aleutian Islands in WWII.

 

[Oakheart]

LOL So because we haven't totally eradicated those problems, the government has done nothing. You need to read a little american history. Poverty, illness, theft, social inequality, illiteracy and crime are substantially lower today than in times past. Of course the government doesn't get all the credit, but it played a role in diminishing those problems. Your "all or nothing" approach where you demand that the government either go-away or totaly wipe-out those problems you mentioned is the same type of thoughtless utopianism found at the other extreme.

(writer's note: Notice how he conveniently left off slavery?)

I don't recall ever advocating the complete removal of government.

I am not sure how I feel about slavery still don't think it was solved by government agencies. Since I conceded her argument on that already it seems moot.

As for the rest of the argument I don't think you have given me anything that has been solved and I believe you jumped in on the "no we don't" have all the same social ills which we do. Per capita the social ills have actually stayed the same or gotten worse. People take less and less credit for their own behavior. thinking big baby sitter is going to step in and solve things all the while politicians go to Washington with the intention to bring back as much money as possible for their constituencies. Me I would rather keep my money here at home and use it to solve ills in my own community. You?

 

[Oakheart]

Has the US been invaded since one of the wars of 1812?



Which ones have been solved through the lack of goverment? We tried this small goverment thing in the UK. We ended up a company running a chunk of India and private enterpise building some stupid transportation projects with massive cost overuns and running them badly.

I didn't know about the Islands but I think The US has done most of the invading since then. We haven't had a decade with out war that I know of? Heck we haven't even gone a decade with out the government shooting US citizens have we. Maybe Tony knows? He studies a ton of American history. I wouldn't want to replace central governments control of our private lives with corporate control either but I would like the states, local and individuals to take on more responsibility for their own problems.

 

[Oakheart]

Having a vaccine is not enough to eradicate a disease. In fact if not for the combined US and Soviet effort small pox would be alive and well in the world today.

You need an infrastructure to implement a well organized public health program to get these effects, and that is what the governments provided. Look at countries with less effective governmental public health programs and how polio is making such a nice comeback in many areas.

Did you know how many outbreaks of small pox we have been having of late? I am sure it is insignificant but it is still around.

I didn't know that the government set up our health care distribution system here in the states.

I did know that they helped to fund the distribution of vaccines though and I can't say that was a bad thing! They didn't step in a take over health care though. I'll say one thing about it though people on Medicare that I know would far prefer to be able to be on a different system.

 

[Cleon]

Here is why Ron Paul hasn't got a shot in hell.

There are three main groups of people in the Republican party. There's a good amount of overlap, and the descriptions don't necessarily apply to every single individual, but generally speaking in the GOP you can find three factions:

1. Neocons and Reagan Republicans--people who are mainly concerned about a strong foreign policy, who think the "War on Terror" is the most important issue right now.
2. Christian fundamentalists (a.k.a. the "religious right")--the Dobson/Robertson/Falwell crowd.
3. Small-government conservatives and libertarians.

Any successful Republican candidate has to convince two of these groups that he's one of them, and at minimum pay lip service to the third. Reagan's genius was that he was able to convince all three factions he was one of them. Dubya, on the other hand, was successful because while his base was/is in the Reaganite/Neocon faction, he also spent a lot of time working the religious right--issues such as abortion and gay marriage have come up fairly often, and usually not accidentally. He's paid some lip service to the small-government crowd, but he's really never gone further than that.

Ron Paul really only appeals to the hardcore small-government conservatives and libertarians (obviously). He won't get any support whatsoever from the Christian Right or the Neocons, because his honesty won't let him give lip service. The Christians hate him because he doesn't think the government should be in the business of banning abortion or dictating who can and can't get married, and the Neocons hate him because he's against the War in Iraq and the Patriot Act.

The winning candidate will know how to play the game. McCain figured out that his criticism of the Religious Right cost him a lot of votes in 2000, and has spent the past year and a half or so fellating as many preachers as possible. At the same time, he's been trumpeting a consistent message of support for the war in Iraq (though he says it's been "mismanaged" ) and the general "war on terror."

Giuliani's momentum has begun to wane. To his credit, he didn't decide to reverse his position on abortion like McCain or Romney, and that's costing him. He made a number of attempts to try and get the Christian Right to look past his abortion stance, but they're not having anything to do with it. The only real chance he has at this point is to appeal to the small-government crowd and his Neocon base; in fact, a couple weeks ago his campaign released some basic campaign promises called "12 Commitments to the American People," which seem to be designed solely to appeal to Neocons and small-government conservatives.

Paul's issue is that not only is his sole base of support in the small-government faction, but the other candidates are paying enough lip service so that small-government conservatives can find something to vote for there. Paul really only appeals to the hard-core small-government crowd; unless he breaks out of that, he's not going anywhere.

 

[Tony]

As for the rest of the argument I don't think you have given me anything that has been solved

You obviously didn't think about what I wrote.

and I believe you jumped in on the "no we don't" have all the same social ills which we do.

This is your simplistic interpretation of what I wrote.

Per capita the social ills have actually stayed the same or gotten worse.

Evidence?

People take less and less credit for their own behavior.

Evidence?

Me I would rather keep my money here at home and use it to solve ills in my own community.

So, you want to get rid of the military, the dea, the fbi, the epa, the nsa, the faa, nasa, the cia and every other government agency?

You?

I'd rather not have to pay any taxes whatsoever.

 

[Oakheart]

Well said Cleon

 

[Oakheart]

You obviously didn't think about what I wrote.



This is your simplistic interpretation of what I wrote.

You wrote three words hard to get more simple than that.



Evidence?
I agree Evidence?



Evidence?
Ditto



So, you want to get rid of the military, the dea, the fbi, the epa, the nsa, the faa, nasa, the cia and every other government agency?

I would keep the Military at least the parts of it that are on American soil. Defense is one of the things that central government must be used for. I would keep the EPA it is set up to protect the people. FAA is also a multistate necessity one state certainly couldn't do it alone. FBI CIA NSA DEA FTA HSA could all be one agency as far as I can tell they were only individualized because of politics in the first place. NASA is not exactly a government agency but it is also something that the states could not do on their own.



I'd rather not have to pay any taxes whatsoever.

Then you are a perfect Ron Paul supporter !
Doing away with the pork and paying off our debt are top on his list. Remember back before the neocon revolution how big the debt was? I do. No with their smaller government lower taxes promises they have ...

I think you and I might be closer on a ton of issues than you think

 

[Oakheart]

Assaults 2,238,480 [1st of 57]
Car thefts 1,147,300 [1st of 55]
Drug offences 560.1 per 100,000 people [4th of 34]
Murders 12,658 [6th of 62]
Murders (per capita) 0.042802 per 1,000 people [24th of 62]
Murders with firearms 8,259 [4th of 32]
Murders with firearms (per capita) 0.0279271 per 1,000 people [8th of 32]
Rapes 89,110 [1st of 65]
Rapes (per capita) 0.301318 per 1,000 people [9th of 65]
Total crimes 23,677,800 [1st of 60]

Here is the newest stats I could find I will look for the oldest.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Did you know how many outbreaks of small pox we have been having of late? I am sure it is insignificant but it is still around.

Ok, you have just proven that you are incredibly ignorant about what you are talking about. Smallpox was eradicated(out side of two labs) by a program combining the US and the Soviet Union providing vaccine to the world health organization. It was officially declared eradicated in 1980, the last wild infection was in 1977.

Also there had been vaccines of vary safety for centuries, it was the first disease that immunization started for, with using the actual disease but giving a specific kind of infection that would be much less lethal than most wild infections.

Pasture then found that cowpox would work as a vaccination agent.

An interesting note is that in the 18th century I remember hearing how they got a strain across the ocean from Spain to central America, specifically using orphans an living incubators to carry the strain, as at the time you needed to be infected from a person.

I didn't know that the government set up our health care distribution system here in the states.

Generally not, but they have been very effective at eliminating many diseases that where the scourge of man for millennia, because you need an organized method of making sure that all the disease gets wiped out.

I did know that they helped to fund the distribution of vaccines though and I can't say that was a bad thing! They didn't step in a take over health care though. I'll say one thing about it though people on Medicare that I know would far prefer to be able to be on a different system.

What? You clearly need to read more about governmental programs to eliminate diseases.

 

[Tony]

Then you are a perfect Ron Paul supporter !

I'm surely not against him. I've thrown my principle support behind Obama, but I'm also rooting for Paul, but I agree with Cleon that he hasn't got a chance in hell.

I think you and I might be closer on a ton of issues than you think.

I know we do, I just take issue with the "government has done nothing to help" meme.