Moderated Dowsing By Edge

[edge]

Well, edge, you asked me a hypothetical question a few days ago. Let me ask you one:

Assume you have cleared an area of creek bed and have decided there is no use going for gold there, because there is no gold to be found.

If someone came along the next week, mined that exact spot, and found twenty Troy ounces of gold the first day, what would you think then?

The second year I did what you said let some one continue in a place that I walked away from.
They were going to do it anyway, so I told them they could to see exactly what you are proposing.
They found nothing.

If that scenario played out like you stated I would say I was fooled or didn't check well enough.
It's so far never happened.

SezMe says,

I doubt anyone here thinks that it is a good idea to mine where there is no ore. It did not take any proof by you.

The proof for me came by dowsing and then checking by uncovering those blank spots.

No, edge that is not the reason. You've been told the reason in this thread many times. The reason is that a dowsing test protocol will NEVER involve unknown field conditions.

No maybe not for the JREF but as another proof later after the test, lets say to cinch it.

Unknown, field conditions.

This is why I dowse because no one has X-ray eyes.
And my back couldn't take the labor looking for nothing.

 

[Tricky]

The second year I did what you said let some one continue in a place that I walked away from.
They were going to do it anyway, so I told them they could to see exactly what you are proposing.
They found nothing.

Nice anecdote. But since you haven't exactly set Fort Knox a-tingling with your finds, I'm not sure that means anything.

The proof for me came by dowsing and then checking by uncovering those blank spots.

From my experience of talking to you, it seems that your standards of "proof" are quite low. Not just in dowsing, but in levitation, UFOs, Jesus and pretty much everything else. It takes very little to confirm to you what you already believed.

No maybe not for the JREF but as another proof later after the test, lets say to cinch it.

Nothing is "cinched" unless you have a well-designed and properly conducted test. You are never going to test again with JREF unless you are willing to accept such a test, and nothing I have seen indicates that you are willing to do this.

This is why I dowse because no one has X-ray eyes.
And my back couldn't take the labor looking for nothing.

Actually, x-ray eyes wouldn't tell you where gold is. And that's pretty funny because we know x-rays exist and can be tested for what they can tell us. You could bring an x-ray spectrometer to the field and it still wouldn't help you.

Your "dowsing rays" (for lack of a better term) have never been shown to exist, so it is difficult for you to show how they work. But of course, it doesn't matter. All that matters is if you can show that the phenomenon you call dowsing works under properly controlled conditions. Once you prove that, then we can work on the mechanisms. So far, all you seem to have is mechanisms, but no phenomenon.

 

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

Am I the only one who saw what happened a few posts back? C'mon guys, Edge's friend has DISCOVERED A PLACE WHERE POTS AND PANS WILL HOVER IF THROWN IN THE AIR!"

"I’m looking to go to a place where nature might demonstrate that this can also occur naturally a form of levitation and I will film in that location that my neighbor clams this to happen, however it might not be related directly.
Two copper veins on either side of a gulch he says, “if you toss up keys or a metal pan it will hover”, This is related in a way with dowsing, when the dowsing a target that’s above the dowser it will defy gravity."

Never mind his magic stick, we now have levitation in the spotlight, and surely if we're wishing for a particular bit of BS to be real I'd wish for levitation rather than metal detecting. I cant wait to see the film, which will go one of two ways. Either we'll be treated to an Ed Wood style special effects extravaganza with pans and keys 'floating' on fishing line, or his mate left dropping pans all over the place with a great look on his face like "hey, it worked when I did it last time while up here smoking weed all day!"

 

[Spektator]

Am I the only one who saw what happened a few posts back? C'mon guys, Edge's friend has DISCOVERED A PLACE WHERE POTS AND PANS WILL HOVER IF THROWN IN THE AIR!"........."

Old news, Kenny. Edge has been meaning to send us proof of that since about April.

Okay, edge, in light of your response to my hypothetical, I have to change my answer:

If you got 9 out of 10 on a double-blind control test, I'd have to say you fooled the experimenters. An honest score of that kind has never happened yet.

 

[edge]

Remember the tether experiment?

The experiment was to see how much power we could retrieve from the electro magnetic field of the Earth.
It supposedly was so much power that it fried the tether wire and it broke free.
Then there were UFOs.

Something may not want us to know what this type of physics leads to?

Or our government doesn't want us to know about free power.

They may have been just observing our baby steps towards what they know.

I would like to know how much was received before it fried and what their readings were that they monitored.
Nothing else was ever said and it makes you wonder because it had positive results up until it fried.

It was working better than their expectations.
Since you guys brought it up,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-wYmFYb3I&mode=related&search=

Take a hint from Krusty the Klown, edge: "It's only funny when the (guy) has dignity."

Really,

What's the big deal about levitation? Flying saucers do it all the time. Just ask Edge.

There's more on that link.

 

[Paulhoff]

Remember the tether experiment?

The experiment was to see how much power we could retrieve from the electro magnetic field of the Earth.
It supposedly was so much power that it fried the tether wire and it broke free.
Then there were UFOs.

Something may not want us to know what this type of physics leads to?

Or our government doesn't want us to know about free power.

Daaaa, edge, were do you think the power comes from for the tether to make power, it comes from the movement of the wire thru the earth’s magnetic field. As electricity is generated by the tether the speed of the spacecraft slows down from the drag of the wire cutting thru the earth’s magnetic field, that is why the tether broke, from all the pull on it from cutting thru the earth’s magnetic field and generating electricity. There is no free lunch edge.

For the others out there, try this sometime. Get someone to help you with this. Get two small DC motors, one electric drill and two wires. Take one of the DC motor’s and put its shaft into an electric drill’s chuck and tighten the chuck onto the shaft. Wire that motor to the other motor, plus to plus, negative to negative, or plus to negative etc, it does matter for this experiment. Have the dumb person hold the electric drill and the motor in the chuck. Before you start the electric drill disconnect just one end of one of the wires from the motor not in the drills chuck. IF you can set the drill to a low speed, turn on the drill and hold the motor tight, it should not be hard to do. Now, and here is the fun part, connect the loss wire to the other motor and have the dumb one hold onto the motor in the drill for all that it is worth. He will now know where the power is coming from, it is from trying to keep the motor in the chuck from spinning because it fells like someone put on the brakes.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/motdc.html

Paul

 

[Marcus]

Remember the tether experiment?

The experiment was to see how much power we could retrieve from the electro magnetic field of the Earth.
It supposedly was so much power that it fried the tether wire and it broke free.
Then there were UFOs.

Something may not want us to know what this type of physics leads to?

Or our government doesn't want us to know about free power.

They may have been just observing our baby steps towards what they know.

I would like to know how much was received before it fried and what their readings were that they monitored.
Nothing else was ever said and it makes you wonder because it had positive results up until it fried.

It was working better than their expectations.
Since you guys brought it up,

http://

Such ignorance is truely breathtaking. At this point, if edge claimed to have a high school degree, I think I would demand evidence.

 

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

(...)you brought up your - and likely not only your - motivation for edge to succeed:

"Any psi phenomenon suggests extension of the mind beyond the physical brain. Once I admit that there is no hope for any of them, I will have to hand over that sole comforting idea I got left... to the paper shredder."

I assume you mean edge's dowsing when you refer to "psi phenomenon".

Why exactly would you need "the sole comforting idea (you) got left"? Comfort for what?

You know, you're asking a very difficult question. In essence I *do* need to answer the general question 'Why would you want an (unproven) psi phenomenon to be real anyway?". I actually don't know yet. It would take some discussion and a stack of draft ideas to really pin it down. I believe it's so general that it needs a new thread, if only because fence-sitters like me don't all focus on the Edge thread. I'll kick it off once I can think of a reasonable first draft. Pherhaps there is an already running thread about this subject I can hook into.

 

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

Old news, Kenny. Edge has been meaning to send us proof of that since about April.

Bugger! I must have missed that piece of lunacy, busy searching for Bigfoot or something I guess.

So now Edge claims to believe absolutely in all of the following...

1. Dowsing
2. UFOs
3. Levitation (near mineral deposits)
4. Free energy
5. Government Conspiracy to keep us in the dark about free energy

Wow, black helicopters ahoy! I better get my regulation tinfoil hat on then, to block all the thought control stuff the aliens/government use. I assume Mike wears his all the time anyway, so no point warning him. I think he's now gone down in my estimation from deluded dowser to complete fruitcake. He has absolutely no critical bone in his body and just laps up all the nonsense he can. I think i get off light with him just calling me Kevin, I'm lucky he isn't out to kill me by now.

 

[Tricky]

You know, you're asking a very difficult question. In essence I *do* need to answer the general question 'Why would you want an (unproven) psi phenomenon to be real anyway?". I actually don't know yet. It would take some discussion and a stack of draft ideas to really pin it down.

Totally understandable. Frankly, I can think of many reason why I would like the paranormal to be real. Who of us hasn't thought or dreamed about such things being true? Thinking about it, discussing it, following the ramifications of it, that's what makes your realize that it might not be as wonderful as you think. Still, I want to have paranormal powers. I want to be freakin' Green Lantern.

"In brightest day, in darkest night
No evil shall escape my sight
Let those who worship Evil's might
Beware my power, Green Lantern's Light."

Man, if I had paranormal powers, I'd fix a lot of things.

I believe it's so general that it needs a new thread, if only because fence-sitters like me don't all focus on the Edge thread.

If you are a fence-sitter, then please ignore the Edge thread. this is not a good example of the kind of people who have a passing or curious belief in the paranormal. This is an example of people who have a fanatical belief in the paranormal. It is also not representative of the average open-minded fence-sitter. I don't know you at all DOG, but I can tell already that you are not like Edge. This is not to knock Edge. Edge has beliefs and he stands up for them. But he doesn't really listen to what others say. I suspect you might be more amenable to such discussions.

I'll kick it off once I can think of a reasonable first draft. Pherhaps there is an already running thread about this subject I can hook into.

Don't worry about it too much. No matter how well-planned or well-intentioned a thread is, they tend to drift. Just spill your guts.

But I will not pretend that you won't be attacked by people who are certain that the paranormal doesn't exist. This is a skeptics board, and we're not all "nice guys". If you really want to explore your ideas on this though, the last thing you want is a bunch of people who kiss ass. You want Devil's advocates. We have those in abundance here.

Best of luck. Let me know where you have posted and I'll try to join in.

 

[SezMe]

But since you've met him and I haven't, would you say my analasis of him is correct, that he is a nice guy, fully functional in society, who is simply deluded?

I would endorse that at-a-glance assessment.

Upthread someone asked if edge was just an "aw shucks" kinda guy or whether his persona here reflected real life. As I said, it's both mixed together. He no more articulate in person than here, so it is not his writing which is getting in the way. I liked his enthusiasm for his dowsing even though that enthusiasm could hardly be more misguided. He is, in short, the kind of guy you would enjoy having a beer with but who, after a while, would probably begin to grate on your objective side. If I was in his area again, I most certainly would look him up to knock back a few and hear his latest stories of adventure.

I said previously in a joking manner that edge was born 100 years too late. Actually, I can fully imagine edge thriving during the gold rush years in northern California in the mid- to late-1800s. He would probably have found gold in spite of his dowsing rod nuttery because there was a lot of gold to be found and edge's perserverence would have served him well.

*snaps back to today's reality*

Now I'm getting real tired of this abortive MDC. I want to get it over with.

 

[SezMe]

I'll kick it off once I can think of a reasonable first draft. Pherhaps there is an already running thread about this subject I can hook into.

As Tricky suggests, don't worry about writing a refined OP. The thread will be off-topic and into all kinds of interesting areas before you've had a chance to redip your quill into the ink well.

 

[colin]

In general, I don’t know as there’s much sense in working on a protocol for Edge. He and the JREF seem to be working on it – albeit slowly. Indeed, I apparently missed the part about being able to identify whether the canister contains gold or silver. From the Challenge Applications thread:

Guska claims to be able to tell whether a cannister contains gold, silver, or nothing through dowsing.

It may have been mentioned earlier and I just spaced on it because… well… I think the reason for that is self-evident.

Hopefully, and in spite of the… err… unique challenges involve when communicating with Edge, a protocol can be formed and a test done by September or October.

Now, where are those fascinating UFO/free energy/conspiracy threads?

 

[SezMe]

RemieV has posted my report in the challenge thread.

 

[Lanzy]

yep, read it all

To be honest I didn't read it in one sitting, and I'm far better at reading threads than participating in them. I just figured the threads with the most postings would prove to be the most interesting. I'll be lurking about and jump in from time to time. Cheers!

 

[Tricky]

I figured that your brain would have exploded from all of the negitivity.

Skeptic brains don't explode because they can hold a lot more than your average brain.

Then you see all the testing I have done and all the changes I have had to do to make the test reasonably passable.
It was more work than I thought and many hours.

Yes, the effort it takes to maintain irrational beliefs in the face of evidence, knowledge, and logic is much greater than it is in a vacuum. The rationalizations alone must take days.

Speaking of rationalizations, have you ever figured out a way around Newton's Third law? You know, how the gold attracts your rod, but your rod doesn't attract the gold? The Nobel Prize is worth a lot more than the Randi Million, ya know.

 

[Tricky]

That’s why you can stack crap higher in a skeptic.

LOL. At least we remember what crap came before.

Oh ya a metal detector can also pull the gold from under all the weight that sits on top of it from under all the over burden on it.

But metal detectors don't have a "force" pulling them down like you claim your dowsing rod does. Hooking them up to a scale would not help a person read them. You are the one who claims that your dowsing rod exerts a force, (measurable by a scale) but you are proposing a force unlike any ever discovered. It is a force that violates Newton's third law.

Think of it this way, Edge. Imagine the force pulling your rod downward as an elastic band between the gold and the tip of your dowsing rod. Now try to figure out how you can make that elastic band exert downward force on your rod without also exerting upward force on the gold.

Still, the fact is, metal detectors are well understood, operating within well-known laws of physics. If you really care, we could explain to you how they work. And metal detectors do work. If you used a metal detector to find a block of gold hidden under one of ten cups, it would work almost every time.

So don't try to compare your dowsing to a metal detector unless you are prepared to test your accuracy at finding gold against the accuracy of a metal detector in finding gold hidden under one of ten cups. Are you ready to try that?

One test at a time, if I pass then I will submit a proposal to do a experiment in a micro-gravity situation that will prove that it doesn’t and that the reaction you are looking for, is, and has to be movement of the dowser toward the target, what ever that target is.

LOL. Where exactly are you going to find a micro-gravity situation? Are you planning on testing in space?

But it doesn't matter. You are not going to pass the first test. I find it unlikely that you will even take it. What you will do is continue to write in your near-incoherent style, about what you think you can do. I think I have the evidence to back this up.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

The plot thickens: Will edge agree to the JREF's proposal?
Am I terminally naive for even considering it?
Will Portland take Greg Oden?

 

[SezMe]

RemieV, I have some comments on the protocol.

First, you should establish a limit on the period that edge can dowse each container. I suggest something like ~10 seconds, or whatever edge will agree to. The problem is that he tends to dowse longer and longer as the trials go on, leading to fatigue on edge's part and a too long drawn out test for everyone.

Second, you will not find a place where edge says there is "no" background reading. That is what he means by calibration. The protocol needs to state that edge agrees that whatever background there is will not affect his dowsing.

Third, the protocol should begin by having edge dowse a container KNOWING that it contains the target and then dowse a container KNOWING that it does not contain the target. At this point, edge should state without equivocation that the location is acceptable and his dowsing works at that location.

 

[EHocking]

RemieV, I have some comments on the protocol.

First, you should establish a limit on the period that edge can dowse each container. I suggest something like ~10 seconds, or whatever edge will agree to. The problem is that he tends to dowse longer and longer as the trials go on, leading to fatigue on edge's part and a too long drawn out test for everyone.

Second, you will not find a place where edge says there is "no" background reading. That is what he means by calibration. The protocol needs to state that edge agrees that whatever background there is will not affect his dowsing.

Third, the protocol should begin by having edge dowse a container KNOWING that it contains the target and then dowse a container KNOWING that it does not contain the target. At this point, edge should state without equivocation that the location is acceptable and his dowsing works at that location.

You don't know how much of a relief it is to me that this is now someone else's problem.....

ReviV et al, I feel for you.