Has Michael Moore become a full blown Truther?

Why is my post a strawman? If I misrepresented your position I apologize, but maybe you could point out how I have done so?


I've started a thread in Science and Medicine about the topic in case anyone is interested in discussing it. But the basic premise of conditioning is as follows:

1. Except for the 2% of humans that display sociopathic tendencies, humans have a natural biological resistance to killing other humans.

2. The effectiveness of this safeguard varies depending on proximity between the killer and victim (emotionally, physically, and technologically), and proximity between the killer and authority.

3. Armed Forces have developed highly effective methods of conditioning soldiers to kill, which disables the safeguard.

4. FPS computer games mimic the same conditioning methods used by the military.

5. It therefore seems logical that FPS computer games condition young people to kill by disabling their natural resistance to killing other people.

-Gumboot
 
I've started a thread in Science and Medicine about the topic in case anyone is interested in discussing it. But the basic premise of conditioning is as follows:

1. Except for the 2% of humans that display sociopathic tendencies, humans have a natural biological resistance to killing other humans.

2. The effectiveness of this safeguard varies depending on proximity between the killer and victim (emotionally, physically, and technologically), and proximity between the killer and authority.

3. Armed Forces have developed highly effective methods of conditioning soldiers to kill, which disables the safeguard.

4. FPS computer games mimic the same conditioning methods used by the military.

5. It therefore seems logical that FPS computer games condition young people to kill by disabling their natural resistance to killing other people.

-Gumboot

It is late and I may not be thinking as clearly as I should be, but I still don't see how this makes my post a strawman.
 
It is late and I may not be thinking as clearly as I should be, but I still don't see how this makes my post a strawman.


Well there's a number of reasons. Firstly, being conditioned to kill doesn't mean you will kill. It just means you can. For example, if the hypothesis re: conditioning is correct, I am conditioned to kill. I have never killed anyone, nor do I have any plans to kill anyone.

Secondly, of the three killings you cited, at least two of the killers were suffering severe psychological disorders (thus in the 2% without a natural safeguard) and two of the killers had served in the military and therefore had been conditioned to kill.

The conditioning theory relates to an enabler, not cause for the killing itself. Consider: traditionally mass killings are the sole domain of the mentally ill. While mentally sound people do kill, it is traditionally done in a fit of rage, against close associates or relatives, and more often than not results in an immediate murder suicide.

This is due to the biological safeguard. Normal people are not capable of mass killings. But, if you add computer game conditioning into the mix, you have large numbers of normal psychologically healthy people who are capable of mass killings, and from a very young age. This won't cause them to carry out mass killings, of course. And there are a host of things which cause the killings to occur. But given the triggers necessary to produce the desire to carry out a mass killing, conditioning and access to firearms makes it possible.

-Gumboot
 
Well there's a number of reasons. Firstly, being conditioned to kill doesn't mean you will kill. It just means you can. For example, if the hypothesis re: conditioning is correct, I am conditioned to kill. I have never killed anyone, nor do I have any plans to kill anyone.

Secondly, of the three killings you cited, at least two of the killers were suffering severe psychological disorders (thus in the 2% without a natural safeguard) and two of the killers had served in the military and therefore had been conditioned to kill.

The conditioning theory relates to an enabler, not cause for the killing itself. Consider: traditionally mass killings are the sole domain of the mentally ill. While mentally sound people do kill, it is traditionally done in a fit of rage, against close associates or relatives, and more often than not results in an immediate murder suicide.

This is due to the biological safeguard. Normal people are not capable of mass killings. But, if you add computer game conditioning into the mix, you have large numbers of normal psychologically healthy people who are capable of mass killings, and from a very young age. This won't cause them to carry out mass killings, of course. And there are a host of things which cause the killings to occur. But given the triggers necessary to produce the desire to carry out a mass killing, conditioning and access to firearms makes it possible.

-Gumboot

In your original post, you said:

gumboot said:
Although I also think Moore missed a key element of the high school massacre formula, that being the way in which First Person Shooter computer games (or Murder Simulators, as Lt. Col. Grossman calls them) condition people to kill. I don't think this is so much an explanation for the killings, but for why such large numbers of people are killed.

I replied:
AZCat said:
I think you'll have a hard time proving any link between video games and body counts. Several of the high casualty U.S. incidents occurred long before first person shooters (FPSs) were common (or even invented), like the University of Texas shootings (1966), the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre (1984), and the Texas Luby's massacre (1991). The Luby's tragedy remained the deadliest until the recent horror on the campus of Virginia Tech. Why would we think that the reasons for the high school shootings could be any easier to divine than the reasons for these other cases? We can argue about the risk of exposing children and adolescents (or even adults) to this type of entertainment, but it seems pretty clear that we Americans are pefectly capable of wiping out large numbers of people without any help from id Software.

You then stated:
gumboot said:
Perhaps you should do some research into conditioning before creating strawman arguments?

A strawman is a refutation of an argument based on a misrepresentation of an opponent's position. In your originating post, you posited a causal relationship between FPS games and the numbers of people killed in high school shootings (I assume in the U.S.A.). I responded that there are a number of historical examples in America of mass shootings prior to the invention of the FPS game (there are plenty more, by the way) and that you would "have a hard time proving a link" between the games and the deaths. You stated that my response was a "strawman" argument, but your post was not an explanation of why my response is a strawman but rather a further explanation of your own argument, including information that was not available in the original claim (and therefore could not have been taken into account by me in my response). In order to back up your claim of "strawman", you need to show where I have misrepresented your original claim.
 
In your original post, you said:



I replied:


You then stated:


A strawman is a refutation of an argument based on a misrepresentation of an opponent's position. In your originating post, you posited a causal relationship between FPS games and the numbers of people killed in high school shootings (I assume in the U.S.A.). I responded that there are a number of historical examples in America of mass shootings prior to the invention of the FPS game (there are plenty more, by the way) and that you would "have a hard time proving a link" between the games and the deaths. You stated that my response was a "strawman" argument, but your post was not an explanation of why my response is a strawman but rather a further explanation of your own argument, including information that was not available in the original claim (and therefore could not have been taken into account by me in my response). In order to back up your claim of "strawman", you need to show where I have misrepresented your original claim.



Well my claim is that conditioning to kill is an explanation for large numbers of deaths. Computer games offer the only likely way high school children are conditioned to kill. You cited examples of killings carried out by adults who had also been conditioned to kill, but another way.

Upon reviewing my post I see that I wasn't overly clear in what I was saying. Sorry about that. :) My fault.

-Gumboot
 
Well my claim is that conditioning to kill is an explanation for large numbers of deaths. Computer games offer the only likely way high school children are conditioned to kill. You cited examples of killings carried out by adults who had also been conditioned to kill, but another way.

Upon reviewing my post I see that I wasn't overly clear in what I was saying. Sorry about that. :) My fault.

-Gumboot

Ahh - thanks. Clarity is sometimes difficult when discussing something close to one's heart. I have begun to shift discussion into the thread you began in SMMT, as it is probably more appropriate there.

Again, my apologies for the confusion.
 
A quick check of the Swift Boat vet claims reveals them to be easily debunkable.

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200704180002

Some of the people making the claims directly and specifically contradict their earlier statements. Some of them admit their claims are based on second hand gossip. Some are simply wrong (such as the guy who said that Kerry wasn't under fire on the day he got his Bronze Star... when the guy himself also got a Bronze Star citation for reacting well under fire while next to Kerry's boat.)
 
A quick check of the Swift Boat vet claims reveals them to be easily debunkable.

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200704180002

Some of the people making the claims directly and specifically contradict their earlier statements. Some of them admit their claims are based on second hand gossip. Some are simply wrong (such as the guy who said that Kerry wasn't under fire on the day he got his Bronze Star... when the guy himself also got a Bronze Star citation for reacting well under fire while next to Kerry's boat.)

Kerry received three purple hearts. He missed exactly ONE day of duty as a result of his "wounds." That isn't debunkable.
 
Kerry received three purple hearts. He missed exactly ONE day of duty as a result of his "wounds." That isn't debunkable.
Hey non-military guy:

You just put the word wounds in quotes. Kerry did not give himself those 3 Purple Hearts, correct? The United States Armed Forces gave them to Kerry. Let's say he was faking it. The military has a term for that: Malingering. He'd have been busted for it.

Tell me this, smart guy. Why would Kerry need to have his medals record padded when he's got 10 medals (including the Silver Star and Bronze Star, you twit) already? Do you think the U.S. military just hands out Silver Stars and Bronze Stars like party favors?

You have just implicated an entire branch of the U.S. Government for conspiring to pad the service record of one of its members, by giving that member various service medals which were not earned. So that he could - what - someday run for President? That's the conspiracy theory?

How exactly is it that you and Gumboot, neither of whom have served a single day in the U.S. military, feel that you can speak so "authoritatively" about that military? By reading the stupid innernetz? Doesn't cut it with me. And don't hand me that "Well I have friends who were in the military!!!11one!!111" crap. Yeah? I have friends who sell houses. Doesn't qualify me to speak with any authority whatsoever on matters of purchasing real estate.

A swift boat twoofer. That's you, Ron. You've become what you oppose. Twoofing.

Remember those disgusting, traitorous individuals who were mocking the entire U.S. military by wearing purple band-aids at the Republican National Convention? Was one of them you, perhaps?

You weren't in the military. All you "know" is what you've read, and what others have told you. No practical experience whatsoever.

The court martial which had to have ensued for Kerry's malingering, since you have accused him and the U.S. military of a conspiracy: Could you point me to it, please? What was the outcome? Was Kerry guilty or innocent? If guilty, what sentence was handed down?
 
The position of the Swift Boat vets is that Kerry's scratches did not merit purple hearts.

And this is your position as well, since you didn't use the Swift Boat Vet foil to shield yourself from criticism in your "ONE day" post.

The Swift Boat Vets and you are wrong.
 
The Swift Boat Vets are about the same as Michael Moore in my estimation. They both bend the truth for a political agenda.


A distinct possibility. However, what this proves is that people who 'were in Vietnam and know what it was like' (such as these "Swift Boat Vets") have no magical quality which grants them impeccable credibility on a political issue. The obverse is also true - that someone who was not in Vietnam and didn't know "what it was like" (often by virtue of the fact of his/her age - what a grand offense that is) is not necessarily dismissible out-of-hand.

Arguments win by preponderance of evidence. Let's not fall into the trap of prostituting a record of honorable military service for the purpose of gaining an "edge" in a political argument on a message board. For every person you can dismiss with "oh, you were never in the military; you don't know what it was like, therefore you have no place to talk", there's a few military vets who hold the exact same political position.
 
According to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Heart#Criteria

The wound does not even need to be a "physical lesion." It just needs to be severe enough that treatment is required (and treatment records have to exist). There is no requirement of missing service.
Also, again, the Swift Boat Vets saying that Kerry did not merit the medals were not there (Albert French and Dr. Letson, for instance) and had no way of knowing about his wounds.


Edited out irrelevencies and clarified
 
Last edited:
There have been some very important hard facts left out of the critical thinking here.

Hard facts:

The evidence for a conspiracy to use 9/11 to invade Iraq is significant. While there is not one shred of evidence the government blew up the World Trade Center, there is evidence that they used the tragedy to remove Saddam Hussein using poor WMD evidence.

Below is a short list of people who blew the whistle on the misuse of pre-war intelligence.

Thomas Packard, acting FBI director: Summer before 9/11, Ashcroft told him he didn’t want to hear anything more about terrorist threats. During the 9/11 hearings other FBI people corroberated this. Someone lied to congress and yet this goes uninvestigated.

Larry Johnson, former counter terrorism agent with the CIA: Rumsfeld set up a special office to link Iraq and Al Qaeda cherry picking Intel; evidence is sent back saying, “That’s garbage, that’s misleading, that misrepresents,” then they would take the same brief to the vice president or one even worse.

Rand Baers, National Security Council: Resigns White House post and works against Bush. He said Cheney pushed CIA "Cheney said, “Everybody knows Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, tell us what you know, what’s your best stuff?..”

Downing Street Memo says Bush wanted to remove Saddam though military action. “Evidence fixed around the policy” How many other counties did the Bush Administration ask to fix evidence evidence around policy? Is the yellowcake part of this fix? If they did it to one country why wouldn't they do it to others?

Rice, Rove, Karen Hughes, Cheney have weekly closed door meetings on how to convince the American people.

John McLaughlin, CIA deputy director: “We did not clear that particular [Niger] speech”… Tenet’s “slam dunk” does not mean what the media thinks it means. Tenet also says the slam dunk was not about the evidence but the presentation of the evidence.

Michael Scheuer: Intel did not matter. We were going to war / Tenet researched 10 years worth of documents and found no connection to Al Qaeda. Tenet tells Bush / Administration yet administration continues to suggest connection.

Who is ‘Joe T’ and why was he the point man for analyzing nuclear weapon intel?

Gregory Thielmann, State Dept intelligence: More and more people said intel on tubes was that they were no good for a nuclear weapon. Official leak saying “Mushroom Cloud” misrepresents the intelligence community disagreement. Administration continues “No doubt” he has WMD. Tenet defends erroneous evidence while others in the CIA voice doubts. State department issues strong and lengthy dissent. Niger uranium purchase “Highly Dubious.” "Intelligence agencies, get your talking points”

CIA intel notes critical gaps in the evidence because of questionable reliability of many sources,

For the first time before a modern war, Bush did not ask for National Intelligence Estimate. Congress demands it. N.I.E. said Saddam not a threat.

White House Iraq group gives only evidence which supports policy while down playing dissent.

Last minute dispute over Niger speech.

Tenet and Powell argue about intel.

Carl Ford, Asst Sec of State, Intelligence: “This is all we got? And we’re making these firm judgments?

Powell not told about Curveball. Curveball was never debriefed by the CIA.

Col. Laurence Wilkerson: Evidence brought to the UN “It was anything but an intelligence document. It was a Chinese menu where you can pick and choose what you want”

A day before Powell’s UN speech, a CIA skeptic had warned Curve Ball is a lair. A superior sends an E-mail reply saying “This war’s going to happen regardless, the powers that be probably aren’t interested whether Curve ball knows what he’s talking about.”

Powell’s speech riddled with misleading allegations. Not outright lies but worded in such a way as to mislead.

Scott Ritter, ex UNSCUM weapon inspector: The evidence for war is not there. He goes on just about every TV station trying to stop the war.

Richard Clarke: Bush wanted to connect Iraq and 9/11. Invading Iraq for 9/11 is like China attacking us and we invade Mexico.

Gen. Clark: People in the Pentagon told him Bush was going to war no matter what.

New Memo DSM said Bush was going to war no matter what.

We know the PNAC wanted to invade Iraq before 911. Was 911 the perfect excuse?

Are you telling me all these high level people are lying?

Here is what I think happened...

PNAC has been looking for an excuse to invade IRAQ since the clinton years. They had a few reasons in mind.

1) Saddam was a nutcase (Trying to draw conclusions from his actions based on what the normal person would do is silly. He wasn't normal) - Problem: he was never shown to be more than a local threat
2) protect the oil supply - Problem: A good reason but not enough to invade. It's their oil and the american people will not go to war just to secure something which isn't theirs.
3) Stablize the middle east: Problem: The american people don't want to go to war to turn Iraq into a middle estern america.

I think what put them over the edge was money. Many of their supporters were going to make a lot of money if they went to war. I'm not saying they made the decision because they knew they were going to make a killing (No pun intended) but because it colored their judgement.

The proof that they didn't think there was WMD was the fact that he pulled the weapon inspectors out only 3 months after they began. Yet we spent more than a year with more than one group of inspectors only to realize they didn't have WMD.

So if you want to go to war what would you have to do? Paint Saddam as a threat by suggesting he was creating WMD and could give it to terrorists. You would do it with a small number of players. Just present the evidence the way conspiracy theorists present their evidence - tell half the truth.

You can want to believe we are killing people in Iraq for valid reasons and if that helps you sleep at night so be it.:D
Impressive list. Now tell me where were those folks when the Democrats were saying the following in the years leading up to the invasion?

One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. "[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.
 
Impressive list. Now tell me where were those folks when the Democrats were saying the following in the years leading up to the invasion?

One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.

"There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do."
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. "[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real ...
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.

Glenn Beck! Is that really you?
 

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