Has Michael Moore become a full blown Truther?

Quite a few. Are you saying most audience members would immediately dismiss any information presented in the cartoon as non factual, because it's a cartoon?
Depends on the sensitivities of the viewer, naturally. At what point do we hold Moore responsible if some of the audience makes incorrect assumptions about whether the film is intended as fully accurate documentary or exaggerated, over-the-top satire/opinion piece? How much is it the responsibility of the audience to be attentive to what they're watching?

Incidentally it was the similarity to South Park that got Moore blown up in Team America: World Police.
I enjoyed that film. I got to see the extended DVD version with the, ah, extra puppet sex scenes. Yes, I can easily see why they didn't make the theatrical release. ;)
 
Depends on the sensitivities of the viewer, naturally. At what point do we hold Moore responsible if some of the audience makes incorrect assumptions about whether the film is intended as fully accurate documentary or exaggerated, over-the-top satire/opinion piece? How much is it the responsibility of the audience to be attentive to what they're watching?


Well that's the ethical question that has been plaguing filmmakers for over a century. :) I think a filmmaker has a responsibility to understand how an audience are most reasonably going to receive their work.

In a court of law, it would come down to what a reasonable person would believe. I think that a reasonable person would believe that a great part of Moore's films were his own opinions, but I also think that a reasonable person would expect that the specific statements and facts offered in support of his opinion were true - regardless of how those statements were expressed (voice over, subtitle, cartoon, etc).

-Gumboot
 
I think that a reasonable person would believe that a great part of Moore's films were his own opinions, but I also think that a reasonable person would expect that the specific statements and facts offered in support of his opinion were true - regardless of how those statements were expressed (voice over, subtitle, cartoon, etc).
I don't know about the latter part - I would say the style with which a message is delivered could be reasonably expected to have a lot of impact on whether any information contained therein was interpreted as factual or not.

There's a reason why documentaries are not done in animation, beyond the financial and practical ones. :D
 
I don't know about the latter part - I would say the style with which a message is delivered could be reasonably expected to have a lot of impact on whether any information contained therein was interpreted as factual or not.

There's a reason why documentaries are not done in animation, beyond the financial and practical ones. :D



Ten or twenty years ago, I would have agreed with you. But not today. The lines are diminishing, and it only increases the responsibility of filmmakers.

The History Channel, for example, employ computer game video in some of their factual documentaries. Documentaries on World War Two have used footage from Saving Private Ryan.

Heck, factual educational videos have been using cartoons for decades. And I would argue that the tone of the cartoon in Bowling For Columbine quite clearly and intentionally mimics the style of factual educational cartoons. This has been done very consciously. The message: You got lied to in school about our history, here's what really happened.

-Gumboot
 
You're right, I was too kind, which can be viewed by some as disgraceful. He was also an alcoholic, a user of cocaine, and was convicted of drunk driving. And his wife wasn't too good at handling a car either. She killed a teenager with her car (ran a stop sign at an intersection, smashed into car across the intersection, speed of her vehicle "smudged" on police report) - and didn't even receive a ticket! I wonder if Hillary had done that? You know what would have happened? The Republican smear and hate machine would have ensured that not a bit of Hillary's DNA remained on planet Earth. But Laura gets a pass. Hmm. Anyway back to GW Bush. He was AWOL. You don't know what that means? Absent Without Leave. I think it's closer to desertion, in his case.


So, you hurl a another barrage of smears and think you've accomplished--what?

The reason you know that Bush had a drinking problem is that he told you. His terrible offense was to get pulled over for driving too slowly after having several beers. Ted Kennedy plunged a car off a bridge, swam to safety, and went home to assemble his damage-control team WHILE A WOMAN REMAINED ALIVE IN THE SUBMERGED CAR SLOWLY SUFFOCATING. You love Ted Kennedy, remember?


The 17-year-old Laura Bush hit a Corvair sedan driven by Michael Douglas. He was thrown from the car and tragically killed. The police records reported that neither driver was drinking. So, it turns out that Laura was also a teenager, and she had no political connections. Hasn't she stated in many interviews how she grieved for the victim? Isn't it true that she knew him?

You are quite the character assassin. Is any blow too low for you?




If Kerry was this reprehensible - then why, all of a sudden, have the Swift Boaters melted back into the woodwork, Ron? Hmm?


Gee, that's a tough one. I think--I'm just guessing--that the statement the Swiftees issued when Kerry lost, that if he tries again they'll be back, might hint at the explanation.


After all we have a traitor (according to you) on the loose! Get Kerry out of the Senate! Yeah, right. Don't hear much from the Swifters anymore. Did you know, by the way, that their campaign against Kerry was heavily funded by a Republican? Did you know that? Tens of thousands of dollars - or much more.


Kerry's appearance in Paris to argue for the North Vietnamese cause WHILE STILL A MEMBER OF THE U.S. MILITARY was technically an act of treason.
You don't care, and in the seventies it was nearly impossible to convict leftist radicals of anything. Jane Fonda's demonstrable treason was never prosecuted.

The Democrats clumsily tried to pretend that the Swiftees were all Republicans, but the falsehood was exposed. After John O'Neill debated Kerry on the Dick Cavett Show, Nixon invited him to White House. O'Neill commented that although he was grateful for the attention, he happened to be a Democrat who had voted for Hubert Humphrey in 1968.

Yes, it would seem likely that funding for the ads produced by the Swiftees would be more likely to come from Republican sources. Duh.
 
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I find it hard to take seriously the views of anyone so lethargically perched on the imagined, black and white, two party, good guys bad guys, sweat and tears fought for bosom, of some mythic motherland.

The reason people cant entertain any hidden collective agenda, is because it might rudely awaken that sentimental security. But realising that would require emotional awareness as well as a linear 'debunking' of 'theories' like the swatting of so many flies.
 
There's a reason why documentaries are not done in animation
Except of course Walking with Dinosaurs, Walking with Beasts, Walking with Cavemen, Sea Monsters, Dinosaur Planet, Micro Safari among others... And if you thought those transcend 'documentary film', then you obviously haven't seen The Future is Wild, Alien Planet or Extraterrestrial.

In these programmes, the 'factual material' that makes it a documentary film is the scientific theories on which the almost entirely fictional works are based. It shows that the distinction between documentary and fiction is not only razorthin, the two can actually overlap.
 
I find it hard to take seriously the views of anyone so lethargically perched on the imagined, black and white, two party, good guys bad guys, sweat and tears fought for bosom, of some mythic motherland.

The reason people cant entertain any hidden collective agenda, is because it might rudely awaken that sentimental security. But realising that would require emotional awareness as well as a linear 'debunking' of 'theories' like the swatting of so many flies.

Nope. Read it three times, and I still have absolutely no idea what you're on about. I've posted it to a different thread where people might have some ideas though.

Dave
 
The lines are diminishing, and it only increases the responsibility of filmmakers.
I would certainly agree with this. Maybe I'm too optimistic about people's ability to weed out the wheat from the chaff.

The History Channel, for example, employ computer game video in some of their factual documentaries. Documentaries on World War Two have used footage from Saving Private Ryan.
I can understand the concerns such instances may cause, but I wouldn't automatically condemn such choices. It would very much depend on how those items were used within the programs and what such use was trying to achieve or illustrate.

Heck, factual educational videos have been using cartoons for decades. And I would argue that the tone of the cartoon in Bowling For Columbine quite clearly and intentionally mimics the style of factual educational cartoons. This has been done very consciously. The message: You got lied to in school about our history, here's what really happened.
A good point, But in that instance, we may be back to the issue of the ability of the audience to understand interpret things again. ;)

Except of course...

(list omitted for brevity's sake)

In these programmes, the 'factual material' that makes it a documentary film is the scientific theories on which the almost entirely fictional works are based. It shows that the distinction between documentary and fiction is not only razorthin, the two can actually overlap.
A good point as well. I probably should have been a bit more clear and said I meant documentaries in their traditional "talking head" type of form, and by animation I meant the cell-based animation as opposed to CGI effects used to depict things which can't really be depicted any other way.

The kind of programs you mentioned were not really the ones I hand in mind.

For the record, I have seen most of the programs you listed.
 
I would certainly agree with this. Maybe I'm too optimistic about people's ability to weed out the wheat from the chaff.

I can understand the concerns such instances may cause, but I wouldn't automatically condemn such choices. It would very much depend on how those items were used within the programs and what such use was trying to achieve or illustrate.

A good point, But in that instance, we may be back to the issue of the ability of the audience to understand interpret things again. ;)



Oh I think that is what it's about. :) Bear in mind I'm not condemning use of cartoons, computer game footage, or fictional film footage. I'm just trying to illustrate that from an audience member's perspective it's no longer true that "live footage" = "true", "animation" = "false".

Moreso, I don't think that has ever been the case, as per old 50's educational films.

Looking at the cues the film gives the audience throughout, I believe the information presented in the cartoon is expected to be accepted as fact.

The film presents itself as an opinion piece, with a light scattering of facts supporting that opinion. A reasonable person expects those facts to be true. So this is the mindset already established when we reach the cartoon.

The cartoon satirises old educational films. It begins immediately by cynically portraying the arrival of English migrants to the New World, not as the Thanksgiving tradition portrays it, but as the migrants slaughtering all of the natives.

This, for me, is important. In recent years there has been a heavily cynical reevaluation of western history, in particular early interaction with indigenous populations. It's certainly not unique to the USA - it happened in New Zealand as well.

The first scene of the cartoon immediately takes advantage of this. It is broadly accepted that early education taught that the natives and migrants got a long initially, and that subsequent teaching has swung the other way, portraying westerners as genocidal. Hence the first point offered by the cartoon is something the audience already accepts as fact. This immediately opens the door to the audience believing everything else the cartoon offers.

I'm sure you've heard of the term "White Man's Burden"? It was an idea that was exploited to justify imperialism - the superior white man having an obligation to provide civilised rule to native peoples.

Today I see a new thing occurring in western history which I also call "White Man's Burden". This time the burden is guilt. It's a common theme in history classes these days that white man, in his past, has caused lots of trouble, caused lots of suffering, and has done nothing right. This psyche is used by a lot of people to add things to the list of "bad things white man did" without them being scrutinised properly.

A good example would be the Musket Wars in New Zealand.

Michael Moore is exploiting this new "White Man's Burden" to get his claims accepted without serious scrutiny.

I think that audiences need to take much more responsibility themselves, and look at any and all claims critically, but nonetheless, Moore did not do all of this by accident. He's much to good for that. It has all been very carefully calculated. He knows exactly how the audience will respond to what he is presenting. Hence my issue with it.

-Gumboot
 
There have been some very important hard facts left out of the critical thinking here.

Hard facts:

The evidence for a conspiracy to use 9/11 to invade Iraq is significant. While there is not one shred of evidence the government blew up the World Trade Center, there is evidence that they used the tragedy to remove Saddam Hussein using poor WMD evidence.

Below is a short list of people who blew the whistle on the misuse of pre-war intelligence.

Thomas Packard, acting FBI director: Summer before 9/11, Ashcroft told him he didn’t want to hear anything more about terrorist threats. During the 9/11 hearings other FBI people corroberated this. Someone lied to congress and yet this goes uninvestigated.

Larry Johnson, former counter terrorism agent with the CIA: Rumsfeld set up a special office to link Iraq and Al Qaeda cherry picking Intel; evidence is sent back saying, “That’s garbage, that’s misleading, that misrepresents,” then they would take the same brief to the vice president or one even worse.

Rand Baers, National Security Council: Resigns White House post and works against Bush. He said Cheney pushed CIA "Cheney said, “Everybody knows Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, tell us what you know, what’s your best stuff?..”

Downing Street Memo says Bush wanted to remove Saddam though military action. “Evidence fixed around the policy” How many other counties did the Bush Administration ask to fix evidence evidence around policy? Is the yellowcake part of this fix? If they did it to one country why wouldn't they do it to others?

Rice, Rove, Karen Hughes, Cheney have weekly closed door meetings on how to convince the American people.

John McLaughlin, CIA deputy director: “We did not clear that particular [Niger] speech”… Tenet’s “slam dunk” does not mean what the media thinks it means. Tenet also says the slam dunk was not about the evidence but the presentation of the evidence.

Michael Scheuer: Intel did not matter. We were going to war / Tenet researched 10 years worth of documents and found no connection to Al Qaeda. Tenet tells Bush / Administration yet administration continues to suggest connection.

Who is ‘Joe T’ and why was he the point man for analyzing nuclear weapon intel?

Gregory Thielmann, State Dept intelligence: More and more people said intel on tubes was that they were no good for a nuclear weapon. Official leak saying “Mushroom Cloud” misrepresents the intelligence community disagreement. Administration continues “No doubt” he has WMD. Tenet defends erroneous evidence while others in the CIA voice doubts. State department issues strong and lengthy dissent. Niger uranium purchase “Highly Dubious.” "Intelligence agencies, get your talking points”

CIA intel notes critical gaps in the evidence because of questionable reliability of many sources,

For the first time before a modern war, Bush did not ask for National Intelligence Estimate. Congress demands it. N.I.E. said Saddam not a threat.

White House Iraq group gives only evidence which supports policy while down playing dissent.

Last minute dispute over Niger speech.

Tenet and Powell argue about intel.

Carl Ford, Asst Sec of State, Intelligence: “This is all we got? And we’re making these firm judgments?

Powell not told about Curveball. Curveball was never debriefed by the CIA.

Col. Laurence Wilkerson: Evidence brought to the UN “It was anything but an intelligence document. It was a Chinese menu where you can pick and choose what you want”

A day before Powell’s UN speech, a CIA skeptic had warned Curve Ball is a lair. A superior sends an E-mail reply saying “This war’s going to happen regardless, the powers that be probably aren’t interested whether Curve ball knows what he’s talking about.”

Powell’s speech riddled with misleading allegations. Not outright lies but worded in such a way as to mislead.

Scott Ritter, ex UNSCUM weapon inspector: The evidence for war is not there. He goes on just about every TV station trying to stop the war.

Richard Clarke: Bush wanted to connect Iraq and 9/11. Invading Iraq for 9/11 is like China attacking us and we invade Mexico.

Gen. Clark: People in the Pentagon told him Bush was going to war no matter what.

New Memo DSM said Bush was going to war no matter what.

We know the PNAC wanted to invade Iraq before 911. Was 911 the perfect excuse?

Are you telling me all these high level people are lying?

Here is what I think happened...

PNAC has been looking for an excuse to invade IRAQ since the clinton years. They had a few reasons in mind.

1) Saddam was a nutcase (Trying to draw conclusions from his actions based on what the normal person would do is silly. He wasn't normal) - Problem: he was never shown to be more than a local threat
2) protect the oil supply - Problem: A good reason but not enough to invade. It's their oil and the american people will not go to war just to secure something which isn't theirs.
3) Stablize the middle east: Problem: The american people don't want to go to war to turn Iraq into a middle estern america.

I think what put them over the edge was money. Many of their supporters were going to make a lot of money if they went to war. I'm not saying they made the decision because they knew they were going to make a killing (No pun intended) but because it colored their judgement.

The proof that they didn't think there was WMD was the fact that he pulled the weapon inspectors out only 3 months after they began. Yet we spent more than a year with more than one group of inspectors only to realize they didn't have WMD.

So if you want to go to war what would you have to do? Paint Saddam as a threat by suggesting he was creating WMD and could give it to terrorists. You would do it with a small number of players. Just present the evidence the way conspiracy theorists present their evidence - tell half the truth.

You can want to believe we are killing people in Iraq for valid reasons and if that helps you sleep at night so be it.:D
 
Oh I think that is what it's about. :) Bear in mind I'm not condemning use of cartoons, computer game footage, or fictional film footage. I'm just trying to illustrate that from an audience member's perspective it's no longer true that "live footage" = "true", "animation" = "false".

Moreso, I don't think that has ever been the case, as per old 50's educational films.

Looking at the cues the film gives the audience throughout, I believe the information presented in the cartoon is expected to be accepted as fact.

The film presents itself as an opinion piece, with a light scattering of facts supporting that opinion. A reasonable person expects those facts to be true. So this is the mindset already established when we reach the cartoon.

The cartoon satirises old educational films. It begins immediately by cynically portraying the arrival of English migrants to the New World, not as the Thanksgiving tradition portrays it, but as the migrants slaughtering all of the natives.

This, for me, is important. In recent years there has been a heavily cynical reevaluation of western history, in particular early interaction with indigenous populations. It's certainly not unique to the USA - it happened in New Zealand as well.

The first scene of the cartoon immediately takes advantage of this. It is broadly accepted that early education taught that the natives and migrants got a long initially, and that subsequent teaching has swung the other way, portraying westerners as genocidal. Hence the first point offered by the cartoon is something the audience already accepts as fact. This immediately opens the door to the audience believing everything else the cartoon offers.

I'm sure you've heard of the term "White Man's Burden"? It was an idea that was exploited to justify imperialism - the superior white man having an obligation to provide civilised rule to native peoples.

Today I see a new thing occurring in western history which I also call "White Man's Burden". This time the burden is guilt. It's a common theme in history classes these days that white man, in his past, has caused lots of trouble, caused lots of suffering, and has done nothing right. This psyche is used by a lot of people to add things to the list of "bad things white man did" without them being scrutinised properly.

A good example would be the Musket Wars in New Zealand.

Michael Moore is exploiting this new "White Man's Burden" to get his claims accepted without serious scrutiny.

I think that audiences need to take much more responsibility themselves, and look at any and all claims critically, but nonetheless, Moore did not do all of this by accident. He's much to good for that. It has all been very carefully calculated. He knows exactly how the audience will respond to what he is presenting. Hence my issue with it.

-Gumboot
You act as though Moore shouldn't be allowed to dabble in the possibility that white men in fear may be responsible for the gun culture in America. We are talking about the American experience which is far different that New Zealanders. They at least saw the dangers in guns and regulated them. For SOME reason americans fear restrictions on guns. Why is that? Moore gives one possible reason. If it's not the "white man's burdon" then give your view. Why do you think Americans can't live without unregulated guns?
 
You act as though Moore shouldn't be allowed to dabble in the possibility that white men in fear may be responsible for the gun culture in America. We are talking about the American experience which is far different that New Zealanders. They at least saw the dangers in guns and regulated them. For SOME reason americans fear restrictions on guns. Why is that? Moore gives one possible reason. If it's not the "white man's burdon" then give your view. Why do you think Americans can't live without unregulated guns?



Er... have you read any of my posts?

I support his desire to have guns controlled. I think any society where people think they need a weapon to protect them from other people within that society has some serious issues.

As I've said in nearly every single post in this thread, I do not have issue with Moore's opinions. In fact I agree with most of them. I have issue with him supporting his opinion with "facts" that are not true.

Although I also think Moore missed a key element of the high school massacre formula, that being the way in which First Person Shooter computer games (or Murder Simulators, as Lt. Col. Grossman calls them) condition people to kill. I don't think this is so much an explanation for the killings, but for why such large numbers of people are killed.

-Gumboot
 
Although I also think Moore missed a key element of the high school massacre formula, that being the way in which First Person Shooter computer games (or Murder Simulators, as Lt. Col. Grossman calls them) condition people to kill.
If you thought we had differences of opinion about subjects before, well, we're really going to have a difference on this one! :D

But in fairness it's not a debate that belongs in this particular thread or forum.
 
If you thought we had differences of opinion about subjects before, well, we're really going to have a difference on this one! :D

But in fairness it's not a debate that belongs in this particular thread or forum.



No, not really. :)

Maybe one day I will start a thread in politics about it, though I don't really want to, as it would get all political. Maybe I should put it in science, mathematics, medicine, and technology.

-Gumboot
 
Although I also think Moore missed a key element of the high school massacre formula, that being the way in which First Person Shooter computer games (or Murder Simulators, as Lt. Col. Grossman calls them) condition people to kill. I don't think this is so much an explanation for the killings, but for why such large numbers of people are killed.

-Gumboot

I think you'll have a hard time proving any link between video games and body counts. Several of the high casualty U.S. incidents occurred long before first person shooters (FPSs) were common (or even invented), like the University of Texas shootings (1966), the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre (1984), and the Texas Luby's massacre (1991). The Luby's tragedy remained the deadliest until the recent horror on the campus of Virginia Tech. Why would we think that the reasons for the high school shootings could be any easier to divine than the reasons for these other cases? We can argue about the risk of exposing children and adolescents (or even adults) to this type of entertainment, but it seems pretty clear that we Americans are pefectly capable of wiping out large numbers of people without any help from id Software.
 
I think you'll have a hard time proving any link between video games and body counts. Several of the high casualty U.S. incidents occurred long before first person shooters (FPSs) were common (or even invented), like the University of Texas shootings (1966), the San Ysidro McDonald's massacre (1984), and the Texas Luby's massacre (1991). The Luby's tragedy remained the deadliest until the recent horror on the campus of Virginia Tech. Why would we think that the reasons for the high school shootings could be any easier to divine than the reasons for these other cases? We can argue about the risk of exposing children and adolescents (or even adults) to this type of entertainment, but it seems pretty clear that we Americans are pefectly capable of wiping out large numbers of people without any help from id Software.


Perhaps you should do some research into conditioning before creating strawman arguments?

-Gumboot
 
Perhaps you should do some research into conditioning before creating strawman arguments?

-Gumboot

Why is my post a strawman? If I misrepresented your position I apologize, but maybe you could point out how I have done so?
 

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