More Fun with Homeopath Dana Ullman, MPH(!)

[manioberoi]

The practitioners of homoeopathy are certainly real; it's just the homoeopathy that isn't.

Tell that to the thousands who fly across the world to consult with top homeopaths and benefit in cancer, asthma, diabetes, psoriasis.......

 

[Curnir]

Can't predict anything.
Homeopathy works - but not always - just as conventional medicine works only till the patient dies.

in post #348 you wrote:

Next you will denigrate all the conventional medical facilities in India........

That looks an awful lot like an attempt to predict the future. Or an attempt at mindreading.

But ok, if you say that you make no predicitons, I'll take your word for it.

 

[Curnir]

Tell that to the thousands who fly across the world to consult with top homeopaths and benefit in cancer, asthma, diabetes, psoriasis.......

That is what we are trying to do. Please pay attention, will you?

 

[manioberoi]

Nice selective quoting. Interesting that you are willing to refer to data that is gathered following the scientific method when it suits your purpose. Although I can't tell what your purpose is with this, since it seems to have nothing to do with anything.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cancer/CA00049



Data gathered without the influence of chance and wishful thinking shows that homeopathy does not cure anyone of cancer.

Linda

Too broad and sweeping a statement to be commented upon.

 

[manioberoi]

That is what we are trying to do. Please pay attention, will you?

I am paying attention- they benefit with permanent cures , tell others, who come and benefit - reputation travels by word of mouth - REPEAT THEY BENEFIT!!!

 

[Curnir]

Originally Posted by Curnir
I'm sorry... that sentence made no sense at all. Were you trying to say that Practitioners of real medicine should be prohibited from giving negative comments on qua.. err sorry 'homeopathy', because the don't consider the tosh.. sorry. articles in woo publications credible?

Oh but if it worked in those cases... surely it will work during proper test conditions ie double blinded placebo trials?

Practitioners of homeopathic medicine are as real as the practitioners of 'real' medicine. They have large following of patients who have been cured and have sent many others to be treated, at first disbelieving and later cured believers - all the hype created by the so called practitioners of real medicine and the poor quality of quite a few homeopaths does cause about half of these to switch to other schools - yoga, naturopathy etc - typically homeopathy begins to work slowly at first and today people want to be cured yesterday - homeopathy is slow gentle and sure footed. Those who stick it out are greatly benefited and often permanently cured. There is no golden shortcut to perfect health in todays polluted environment with contaminated food, water, air etc taking its toll.

Oh I say, nice evasion there.
I'll post the question again, just in case you missed it the first time.

Oh but if it worked in those cases... surely it will work during proper test conditions ie double blinded placebo trials?

 

[fls]

For that we must first agree on a true and fair definition of what is true cure and what is symptomatic cure (suppression).

Yes. And that is one of the main criticisms of homeopathy - that rather than measuring true cures, they measure "cure" only by symptom suppression.

I repeat that proof in the form of physical (material drug - controls - large numbers of non- homogeneous patients treated with one specific drug )evidence of the type that you are trying to manouevre me into is nothing but intellectual dishonesty; you very well know that homeopathy works with no material above 12C or 24X; further homeopathy is individualized treatment of one person with one or more remedies over time with a view to complete cure.

We have made no requirements for the material presence of the drug. And both individualized and single treatments are amenable to the kind of study that allows us to remove the effects of chance and wishful thinking.

And this can be proved in thousands of cases recorded - unrecorded cases would run into large numbers since self prescription is possible in homeopathy with much greater safety than conventional medicine OTC drugs.

Even so unsuitable trials of single remedies used on large non- homogeneous persons with a mechanically selected remedy have shown surprisingly good results at times, and expectedly poor results at other times!!

This is as it should be, and cannot in any way be construed as a proof that homeopathy has failed to work consistently in all the trials.

Yes. These are exactly the kinds of results one would expect if homeopathic treatments have no real effect.

Linda

 

[Curnir]

I am paying attention- they benefit with permanent cures , tell others, who come and benefit - reputation travels by word of mouth - REPEAT THEY BENEFIT!!!

Then surely the authenticity of the homeopathic "remedies" can be proven in proper testing conditions? Right?

 

[fls]

Not so fast. You missed the part where I said such trials are not appropriate but are being done.

I didn't miss it. I was making direct reference to it.

They are increasingly showing (double blind placebo) that they work.

You have yet to provide any reasonable evidence of this with your references.

What I am saying is that the so called good journals of your liking do not readily publish the studies.

Then you must accept the studies (double blind placebo) published in ALL journals and not have your way in all things - judge, jury and executioner!!!

You have missed your target. I never said I was unwilling to look at all the studies. In fact, I completely agree that one must look at all the studies. And the publishers of those metanalyses also agree, as they describe in detail the efforts they made to make sure that they included all the relevant studies that had been performed (including studies published in non-conventional journals).

Linda

 

[manioberoi]

Wow. There's some really big claims being made in this thread. Homeopathy curing Cholera, Syphilis and now Cancer! It there no illness that it cannot be used to treat effectively?

Clearly it fails to treat the symptoms of credulousness, naivety and stupidity which are so often displayed by its proponents. Alas, the only potential cure for these is education and hard work. Even then relief is not guaranteed.

Homeopathy can treat all conditions other than cases requiring surgery. It has cured a number of conditions and has alleviated a larger number of conditions WITHOUT LIFE THREATENING SIDE EFFECTS. Conventional medicine is 99 percent of medicine but 1 percent of medicine is a large enough area that homeopathy covers wonderfully well - treated cases library of any good homeopath runs into thousands.

 

[Curnir]

Homeopathy can treat all conditions other than cases requiring surgery.

HIV? Ebola? Hanta? Anthrax? Smallpox? Oh sorry you wrote treat, Ok fair enuff you can treat just about anything with just about anything. For instance I can treat sinus infections by dancing around the person with the infection, singin 'kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit ki-ill the wabbit...' that doesn't mean that it works/cures the infection.

WITHOUT LIFE THREATENING SIDE EFFECTS.

No side effects? Fair enuff, if there's no effect then it would logically follow that there are no side effects.

Conventional medicine is 99 percent of medicine but 1 percent of medicine is a large enough area that homeopathy covers wonderfully well - treated cases library of any good homeopath runs into thousands.

1. can you support these number or are you just writing random percantages?
2. there is only one type of medicine, the ones that work.
If homeopathy worked it would be part of real medicine.

And you know.
The best way of convincing practitioners of real medicine that homeopathy works, and thus turn it into medicine (instead of quackery) is to PROVE that it work under proper testing conditions.

 

[Mojo]

Tell that to the thousands who fly across the world to consult with top homeopaths and benefit in cancer, asthma, diabetes, psoriasis.......

What a nice argumentum ad populum.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Homeopathy can treat all conditions other than cases requiring surgery. It has cured a number of conditions and has alleviated a larger number of conditions WITHOUT LIFE THREATENING SIDE EFFECTS. Conventional medicine is 99 percent of medicine but 1 percent of medicine is a large enough area that homeopathy covers wonderfully well - treated cases library of any good homeopath runs into thousands.

I rest my case

 

[manioberoi]

I rest my case

Whew! Thanks.

Sarvadaman

 

[manioberoi]

Then surely the authenticity of the homeopathic "remedies" can be proven in proper testing conditions? Right?

Yes! But the "proper testing conditions" will surely be disputed by you!! What is the proper testing condition for individualized treatment/remedy(s)?

There will be regulatory problems, ethical problems, choice problems, duration problems etc. since typically homeopathic treatment will result in cure (for diabetes or asthma or dengue or chikungunya or AIDS or syphilis or TB or tetanus or cancer etc).

Nevertheless the All India Institue of Medical Sciences (AIIMS), New Delhi, India is helping the Central Council for Research in Homeopathy (CCRH) in the process of carrying out conventional double blind studies using homeopathic remedies; presently the homeopaths are being trained in the scientific methods of double blind studies.

That homeopathy works is beyond doubt in India - to prove it works - the process is now in the works.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

The practitioners of homoeopathy are certainly real; it's just the homoeopathy that isn't.

Damn! You beat me to it.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Yes! But the "proper testing conditions" will surely be disputed by you!! What is the proper testing condition for individualized treatment/remedy(s)?

Allo wth homeopath to go through the entire "individualisation" rigmarole but then just randomly allocate whether the patient will recevie the prescribed remedy or a blank control.

I'm afraid if you thought that was the difficult bit then you have not really understood how to test anything at all and have rather disqualified yourself from commeting on the tests that have been done.

 

[MRC_Hans]

What high quality are you referring to? I do hope not one of these:
"Suit Says Company Promoted Drug in Exam Rooms
By MELODY PETERSEN, New York Times, May 15, 2002

Warner-Lambert also hired two marketing firms to write articles about the unapproved uses of

*snip*

The virtues and vices of the conventional pharmaceutical industry is an interesting and imprtant topic. However, it is NOT the topic of this thread, and it is completely irrelevant to the validity of homeopathy. No matter how many side effects conventinal meds may have, and no matter how devious the practices of some pharma companies may be, it will not in ANY way vindicate homeopathy.

The only thing that can vindicate homeopathy is proof that it works.

Hans

 

[Curnir]

Yes! But the "proper testing conditions" will surely be disputed by you!!

Only if you cheat.

What is the proper testing condition for individualized treatment/remedy(s)?

Ok let take some illness that isn't life threatening (where the patients would die or suffer if they were to go without their real medicine)... Like oh... Fur allergy for instance.

1. the patients have their allergy confirmed with simple allergy tests.
2. the patients are given a number and visit the qua.. sorry homeopath one by one so that he can determine the individualized treatment.
3. the patient leaves the room.
4. the homeopath prepares the individualized treatment, marking the container of the treatment with the patients number (nothing else).
5. the homepath transports the treatment to the BLINDER.
6 the blinder uses an advanced randomizer to determine (he flips a coin) whether the patient should get a the homepathic pills or the placebo.
6a. if the cointoss denotes that the patient should get the placebo, the blinder takes prepares a pill bottle with placebo and marks it with the patients number.
7. the blinder notes the patients number and if he/she got a placebo or a homopathic dose.
8. the blinder transports the treatment to the patient.
9. After the treatment is over the patient reports back to the homeopath, to indicate whether it worked or not.
10. the homeopath prepares a list recording which of the patients reported a successfull treatment.
11. the lists of the blinder and homepath are compared.
12. the allergy test preformed in step 1 is repeated. To see whether the allergy is gone.


The blinder should have no contact with the homeopath and patient, all transports should be done by proxy.

That is a simple test protocol, the details need some tuning.
Took me 5 minutes to come up with.

That homeopathy works is beyond doubt in India - to prove it works - the process is now in the works.

Good luck.

 

[MRC_Hans]

This from the Mayo Clinic is even more confusing - *sniiiip*Tell your doctor if you'd prefer not to pay attention to the numbers. "

Irrelevant to the discussion of homeopathy.

Homeopathy is individualized to the case and gentle as well as curative; for life, not just 3 months.

Unfounded claim.

Hans