EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
Lose Millenium. Put your apps and system on one drive and use the other for video storage and, if you have the room, the video processing while editing.
I think this is all she needs, Makes me wonder about her knowledge
of the test?
Thank you for the clarification. from before.
Next question,
Will you be able to identify the substance in the film cannister? Or merely say if there is a substance or not?
Thank you again,
JREF Challenge Desk
My response,
Hi Alison,
You ask,
Will you be able to identify the substance in the film
canister? Or merely say if there is a substance or
not?
I will identify only the gold or silver, and I have to
know for my self that it's void of metals.
Only the target will be identified.
The target metals will appear ten times in random
order
once in each set of ten.
Mike
They know this?
EHocking said,
Lose Millenium. Put your apps and system on one drive and use the other for video storage and, if you have the room, the video processing while editing.
Me,
Yes the slave drive will have plenty, plus plenty for storage.
It will be strickly for pics. and movies.
of the test?
Thank you for the clarification. from before.
Next question,
Will you be able to identify the substance in the film cannister? Or merely say if there is a substance or not?
Thank you again,
JREF Challenge Desk
My response,
Hi Alison,
You ask,
Will you be able to identify the substance in the film
canister? Or merely say if there is a substance or
not?
I will identify only the gold or silver, and I have to
know for my self that it's void of metals.
Only the target will be identified.
The target metals will appear ten times in random
order
once in each set of ten.
Mike
They know this?
EHocking said,
Lose Millenium. Put your apps and system on one drive and use the other for video storage and, if you have the room, the video processing while editing.
Me,
Yes the slave drive will have plenty, plus plenty for storage.
It will be strickly for pics. and movies.
Once again, I do not understand what this post is about. I could guess, though.
Edge, can you get around to use the quote button?
Spektator
Is that right?
Edge, I think what is being asked is this:
Will you identify gold? Will you identify silver? Or will you just identify the target as having gold or silver present?
That is, you dowse a container. Your dowsing rod indicates to you that it has a target in it. Which of these do you then say?
1. "This container has one of the target metals in it."
2. "This container has silver in it."
or
3. "This container has gold in it."
If you feel you can distinguish between silver and gold, that might be something you'd want to add to the protocol. If you cannot distinguish between gold and silver the protocol should specify that, too.
If the target that you want to have put in the container in fact has BOTH gold and silver in it, you should specify that.
Will you identify gold? Will you identify silver? Or will you just identify the target as having gold or silver present?
That is, you dowse a container. Your dowsing rod indicates to you that it has a target in it. Which of these do you then say?
1. "This container has one of the target metals in it."
2. "This container has silver in it."
or
3. "This container has gold in it."
If you feel you can distinguish between silver and gold, that might be something you'd want to add to the protocol. If you cannot distinguish between gold and silver the protocol should specify that, too.
If the target that you want to have put in the container in fact has BOTH gold and silver in it, you should specify that.
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
A couple of more questions for you edge.
1. Will the target be gold or silver?
2. Will the target be a nugget, ingot, flakes or jewelry, or a combination?
3. What is the minimum weight you need to use?
4. What is the intended weight you will use?
5. When the canisters are stored away from the test site, do they need to be separated from each other? If so, what distance is required between the canisters when they're being "stored"
6. How far from the test site can the "storage" location be. This location is where the random selection of canisters is arranged.
7. How much time does the test site need to be clear of targets between each pass? You mentioned that it needs time to settle (or similar wording).
8. How much time do you need for each pass over each canister to divine it's nature. Please give min / max estimate.
9. Lastly, and it's a biggie, if you had to do the test with 10 canisters at a time placed in a test area, how far apart would each of the canisters be from each other so as not to interfere?
The reason for 9 is that, I estimate that the protocol you are preferring (one test site, one canister at a time) might take 10mins per pass. That equates to 100mins per trial of 10 passes.
Or 20 hours for the Preliminary Challenge - it would have to be 10 hours a day over 2 days to perform this part of the Challenge.
That's 10 hours with no breaks.
I just don't think it's feasible.
You claim that the process is fatiguing - I can't see you doing this for 10 hours.
Over 10 hours *others* will get tired and this will lead to mistakes in recording and sticking to the protocol.
If you want to get this done - I would suggest deciding on the minimum area for point 9. That is, 10 canisters in one place at one time.
A trial like that could be completed in only 3hrs TOTAL.
I have a protocol for your preferred method - but it is way too time consuming and I don't think anyone will agree to it (for the reasons above).
10. Alternative would be to select 1 from 5 at a time - but that would require 80% success for the Preliminary and 100% for the $1MM
11. The Sticker. If you were to pass the Preliminary stage (above), the success rate for the Final stage and the $1MM requires an 80% success rate, ie 8 right from 10 trials.
If you claim that your success rate is only 70%, how do you expect to win the Final stage for the $1MM?
EHocking says,
1 It can be whatever combination.
2 Same as above.
3 Doesn't matter but over a quarter ounce.
4 If it's all gold a quarter once or more.
5 No they can be together but they need to be at least 30 feet away, especially the target.
6 At least 30 feet.
7 Two to four minutes.
8 If it's a good spot or better than where SezMe and I tested a couple of minutes.
9 Can't be done all at once But you never know, that way I would have to move the scales each time on all ten spots, they would all have different base line numbers and we would need to know all of this.
It would take much longer.
10 It might only take 3-4 hours to do half then the next day the same.
For the final test, the same thing.
On the right piece of ground I might get it all correct.
If I got the first five right then the next 1 through 10 would require the 80 % which would shorten the test.
We are otherwise looking at 4, 4 hour days Then again it might be only one day if the numbers go like this,
I miss 4 times off the bat, it's over.
This is why if they send 2 representatives we could take our time, after all it’s for a million bucks, If they are really interested to know, but I would have to talk to the owner at the resort and line that out then it could happen while I mine there in September.
I would pay for it with my half of the gold we mine.
The JREF would have to then have film on it, which is entirely up to them.
I don't know how much they would trust their reps.
I would spend lets say 2 hours a day then go dredge to pay for it all.
Then the next day do the test for 2 hours and then mine and so forth.
However it depends on what kind of a deal I can make with him 'the owner".
They would get to stay for about 5 or 6 days.
I will probably have to go to Fort Lauderdale and find a park or a spot on the beach.
In this way they can meet with me and go home or back to the office.
I will pay for their stay and their food all they have to do is get here.
It might be a good mini vacation for James and some one willing, or who ever to be here.
I figured Tricky or SezMe could, but who ever the volunteers would be, would have to be cleared by the JREF.
We can do anything.
The two options they have, come here or I go to Florida.
September or October would be Ideal in either location.
October in Florida.
It won't be so hot out side and September is the month that I can be at the resort," The Bonanza Creek resort".
I’m not going to be rushed this time.
Spectator says,
Remember the last test I had combinations in one container and they weren’t concerned so one container will hold both or one of the metals.
The person that I'm communicating with "Alison" should already know this.
As long as I have one of my team members with one of their team members and one with me, I have no problem.
1 It can be whatever combination.
2 Same as above.
3 Doesn't matter but over a quarter ounce.
4 If it's all gold a quarter once or more.
5 No they can be together but they need to be at least 30 feet away, especially the target.
6 At least 30 feet.
7 Two to four minutes.
8 If it's a good spot or better than where SezMe and I tested a couple of minutes.
9 Can't be done all at once But you never know, that way I would have to move the scales each time on all ten spots, they would all have different base line numbers and we would need to know all of this.
It would take much longer.
10 It might only take 3-4 hours to do half then the next day the same.
For the final test, the same thing.
On the right piece of ground I might get it all correct.
If I got the first five right then the next 1 through 10 would require the 80 % which would shorten the test.
We are otherwise looking at 4, 4 hour days Then again it might be only one day if the numbers go like this,
I miss 4 times off the bat, it's over.
This is why if they send 2 representatives we could take our time, after all it’s for a million bucks, If they are really interested to know, but I would have to talk to the owner at the resort and line that out then it could happen while I mine there in September.
I would pay for it with my half of the gold we mine.
The JREF would have to then have film on it, which is entirely up to them.
I don't know how much they would trust their reps.
I would spend lets say 2 hours a day then go dredge to pay for it all.
Then the next day do the test for 2 hours and then mine and so forth.
However it depends on what kind of a deal I can make with him 'the owner".
They would get to stay for about 5 or 6 days.
I will probably have to go to Fort Lauderdale and find a park or a spot on the beach.
In this way they can meet with me and go home or back to the office.
I will pay for their stay and their food all they have to do is get here.
It might be a good mini vacation for James and some one willing, or who ever to be here.
I figured Tricky or SezMe could, but who ever the volunteers would be, would have to be cleared by the JREF.
We can do anything.
The two options they have, come here or I go to Florida.
September or October would be Ideal in either location.
October in Florida.
It won't be so hot out side and September is the month that I can be at the resort," The Bonanza Creek resort".
I’m not going to be rushed this time.
Spectator says,
Remember the last test I had combinations in one container and they weren’t concerned so one container will hold both or one of the metals.
The person that I'm communicating with "Alison" should already know this.
As long as I have one of my team members with one of their team members and one with me, I have no problem.
How did you come up with the answer to #6?
If you propose to go to Florida in October, I assume you mean 2007, doesn't that make your whole fuss - which has now stretched for months (!) - about the "perfect" location/spot meaningless?
Also, a testing team very likely will not agree to a test duration of five or six days. You know that.
You also know - very well - that you have to pay for all expenses. These demands/propositions smell of you wanting to have your proposal rejected.
Why not simply go to Fort Lauderdale and do your thing?
Is it the attention you're getting?
Is it the bathing in the light of James Randi?
Is it the joy of leading people like us in circles over and over and over?
Is it the deeply rooted fear of knowing that you have chased a delusion for like 20 years?
There's a million dollars waiting for you, edge.
Do what you claim to be able to do and they're yours.
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
No wonder Alison is having problems understanding - you can't even answer all my questions, and I understand what you want....
I'll summarise
Please state precisely how you will come up with the combination.
Question was: Nugget, ingot, flakes, jewelry or a combination? ie, what state will the metals be in?
If it is a combination of gold and silver. What is the intended weight you will use?
If it HAD to be done with 10 targets at a time, how far apart would they need to be placed?
Please answer the question posed.
I cannot see anyone agreeing to a 4 day test for such a simple claim.
Do yourself a favour and find a site where 10 canisters can be placed at a time. (See Q9)
Please drop this line of thought. The test needs to be able to be completed in one day, one sitting.
Please show a little consistency.
Answer Q9.
Pick a site.
Pick a site where 10 canisters can be put down at one time.
Propose a protocol that will only take 3hrs and not 4 days and THEN you have a Challenge.
Everything else appears to be avoidance.
I'm attempting to *help* you here - I could do with a little of your co-operation.
I'll summarise
Please state precisely how you will come up with the combination.
This is NOT the same as above.
Question was: Nugget, ingot, flakes, jewelry or a combination? ie, what state will the metals be in?
It does matter - you state the dummy targets must be of equal weight to the gold/silver target. So is that 1/4oz minimum or OVER 1/4oz minimum?
If it is all silver. What is the intended weight you will use?
If it is a combination of gold and silver. What is the intended weight you will use?
OK
OK
Good. A simple kitchen timer will suffice for that.
Please state minimum and maximum time, as asked.
Please answer the question asked.
If it HAD to be done with 10 targets at a time, how far apart would they need to be placed?
Question was, would you be willing to try for 1 from 5 targets each time, given the success rates that I quoted you would need to pass?
Please answer the question posed.
It's your money....
Since this is a double-blind test, during the test no one will know the results. Therefore don't even bother speculating with this sort of thing. The total number of trials agreed upon will all be performed before any results are known.
I cannot see anyone agreeing to a 4 day test for such a simple claim.
Do yourself a favour and find a site where 10 canisters can be placed at a time. (See Q9)
No. THis will not happen, for the reasons I gave earlier and for the fact that JREF reps are not doing this for a holiday.
Please drop this line of thought. The test needs to be able to be completed in one day, one sitting.
You can't find one site in your own backyard after a year, yet you can find a spot in Florida just like that?
Please show a little consistency.
Answer Q9.
Pick a site.
Pick a site where 10 canisters can be put down at one time.
Propose a protocol that will only take 3hrs and not 4 days and THEN you have a Challenge.
Everything else appears to be avoidance.
I'm attempting to *help* you here - I could do with a little of your co-operation.
My protocol stands.
I can go to them or they can come to me.
The test can be as long as necessary.
If I get 5 out of ten it will be on the way to the next five.
Ten tries.
It can prove what ever they want, 5 of 5 or what ever.
Don't make it harder than it is only two things have changed the one spot and the scales.
So far the only thing left, is what I posted earlier in the e-mail and the place, and time....
If I do it your way we are back to the same test that you want me to rush through.
I had four different targets the last time all in one container.
The gold is easier to find.
One spot is doable.
It's not they will interfere but what's in the spot to begin with.
The canisters can be moved it’s what's in the ground that cannot be moved, so I get to pick one spot.
The flaw in the original set up is that you are not and I repeat, NOT going to find ten neutral spots in any near by area, that’s the flaw that can’t be over come.
So far there hasn’t been a totally Neutral spot yet, that I can find so I have to look at the base line as low as possible and the read the scale from the target metals, the highest I can get for a target, the more the more noticeable the deeper the scales will go and faster.
My protocol stands.
I can go to them or they can come to me.
The test can be as long as necessary.
If I get 5 out of ten it will be on the way to the next five.
Ten tries. It can prove what ever they want, 5 of 5 or what ever.
Don't make it harder than it is only two things have changed the one spot and the scales.
So far the only thing left is what I posted earlier in the e-mail and the place and when....
If I do it your way we are back to the same test that you want me to rush through.
I had four different targets the last time all in one container.
{quote]You can't find one site in your own backyard after a year, yet you can find a spot in Florida just like that?
[/quote]Just like that we are talking about a void spot in an area they exist down there too, but not ten just for their convenience..
It's not they will interfere but what's in the spot to begin with. The canisters can be moved what's in the ground cannot, so I get to pick one spot.
Remember they said there is no measurable force.
So they shouldn't be worried?
This is to my advantage….
In this way I may prove it………….
To do the test in its original way is a farce.
Do you get it now EHocking?
Dan and I where able to do sets of 30,30 and 40 in three days I may be able to do 50 a day then I’m done.
Going fast when drained of power and tired is a losing proposition.
That’s another flaw.
I must for this test go at the pace I described.
SezMes set of ten was the forth for the day. All high numbers.
Any more than that and I start scoring lower.
I know what I’m doing if you want to rewrite it,
get on my side?
And besides I don't think they are worried as I will only get 1 of ten hits right.
According to them.
They won't care about any of the numbers or what I'm getting from it, {the scales}.
I can go to them or they can come to me.
The test can be as long as necessary.
If I get 5 out of ten it will be on the way to the next five.
Ten tries.
It can prove what ever they want, 5 of 5 or what ever.
Don't make it harder than it is only two things have changed the one spot and the scales.
So far the only thing left, is what I posted earlier in the e-mail and the place, and time....
If I do it your way we are back to the same test that you want me to rush through.
I had four different targets the last time all in one container.
Just like that, we are talking about a void spot in an area.
The gold is easier to find.
One spot is doable.
It's not they will interfere but what's in the spot to begin with.
The canisters can be moved it’s what's in the ground that cannot be moved, so I get to pick one spot.
The flaw in the original set up is that you are not and I repeat, NOT going to find ten neutral spots in any near by area, that’s the flaw that can’t be over come.
So far there hasn’t been a totally Neutral spot yet, that I can find so I have to look at the base line as low as possible and the read the scale from the target metals, the highest I can get for a target, the more the more noticeable the deeper the scales will go and faster.
My protocol stands.
I can go to them or they can come to me.
The test can be as long as necessary.
If I get 5 out of ten it will be on the way to the next five.
Ten tries. It can prove what ever they want, 5 of 5 or what ever.
Don't make it harder than it is only two things have changed the one spot and the scales.
So far the only thing left is what I posted earlier in the e-mail and the place and when....
If I do it your way we are back to the same test that you want me to rush through.
I had four different targets the last time all in one container.
{quote]You can't find one site in your own backyard after a year, yet you can find a spot in Florida just like that?
[/quote]Just like that we are talking about a void spot in an area they exist down there too, but not ten just for their convenience..
It's not they will interfere but what's in the spot to begin with. The canisters can be moved what's in the ground cannot, so I get to pick one spot.
Remember they said there is no measurable force.
So they shouldn't be worried?
This is to my advantage….
In this way I may prove it………….
To do the test in its original way is a farce.
Do you get it now EHocking?
Dan and I where able to do sets of 30,30 and 40 in three days I may be able to do 50 a day then I’m done.
Going fast when drained of power and tired is a losing proposition.
That’s another flaw.
I must for this test go at the pace I described.
SezMes set of ten was the forth for the day. All high numbers.
Any more than that and I start scoring lower.
I know what I’m doing if you want to rewrite it,
get on my side?
And besides I don't think they are worried as I will only get 1 of ten hits right.
According to them.
They won't care about any of the numbers or what I'm getting from it, {the scales}.
This was a humongous and thorough effort, EHocking. Precise and clinical.
And that was edge's response: (I edited EHocking's quote in, using the quote button properly. I also edited out edge's handtyped quote marks, because they did not allow to display his post as a quote.)
I quote edge response to EHocking's inquiry again. It bears repeating, because his answer sums up edge's ability and willingness to devise a mutually agreed upon testing protocol for a possible reward of USD 1,000,000 perfectly:
And edge's other response in the same post to the same inquiry:
As far as being obtuse, trying to confuse and choosing to lose (using a ruse cruising on booze?) almost all traces of clarity, edge seems the runaway winner.
Edge, you are amazing...ly dense.
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
You don't have a protocol. This is what I'm attempting to help you with.
As far as I can see, with your insistence on a single test site for one canister at a time, you only have one choice of how to be tested.
- 2 canisters.
- 1 with a target.
- Dowse one at a time - say yes or no.
For the Final test you will need 28 correct from 30 passes.
From the times for each stage that you have proposed, the Ppreliminary will take (min) 2.5 hours and the Final, 5 hours.
Consider the success rate required.
Would you be able to achieve the required success rates?
If yes, I'll write up the double-blind protocol I have devised for it.
You guys answered my last question, how many more tests, one more test with 8 out of 10 hits.
They asked this and I assume this is the last question other than where and when.
If you want to rewrite this go ahead.
Reno the only buffoon is you and your picture.
If they run the test this way they stand a good chance of losing, as far as duration it might be less that you think because the target could show up through the draw more in lower numbers of 1 through10.
If they can't understand this then they purposefully reject it but I think they won't because they arrogantly think they know it all like you, but unlike you, they will accept because they think that I will get very low score.
But then giving a dowser an even and honest chance may change their mind after all it's a lot of money that they bet on!
In this way we may prove that it works.
Marcus
Illuminator
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Messages
- 3,857
How about it edge? EHocking has put forward a proposal for a protocol that can be done in a day, meets your requirements for a single spot , conforms to your stated time between passes, meets the odds for the preleminary(1 in 10,000) , and is likely to be acceptable. What would be the point for proposing protocols that you know are not acceptable?
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
I will only address the salient points.
By adding the stipulation of the requirement for a single spot with canisters placed one at a time, and the need for you to use a mining balance, the only person making this difficult is you.
And frankly, after your last reply to me, I'm just about out of patience with you.
I offer you help with this and all I get from you is in-my-face "do you get it Ehocking?"
Wrong. JREF will not and should not agree to this. You will have to "dowse" each and everyone of the test canisters.
You will have to dowse each of the 10 targets for each of the 10 trials. JREF should not accept that you can call one of the 10 trials "complete" if you do not dowse each and every canister.
YOU have changed the conditions of your proposal - JREF have not.
By adding the stipulation of the requirement for a single spot with canisters placed one at a time, and the need for you to use a mining balance, the only person making this difficult is you.
Ah. The first accusation that JREF is cheating you - well done (that's sarcasm, by the way).
Not if you won't accept honest attempts to help you devise a double-blind test.
And frankly, after your last reply to me, I'm just about out of patience with you.
I offer you help with this and all I get from you is in-my-face "do you get it Ehocking?"
EHocking
Penultimate Amazing
Here is my reason for saying you should be required to dowse each and every canister, edge.
Let's say on one of the trials you say that the FIRST canister has the target in it and then do not dowse the other 9.
When you fail the Preliminary test, JREF will be open to accusations of cheating in the test by "denying" you the opportunity to test all canisters.
Either by you, or by other detractors.
Ask JREF directly. Only that question.
If, during a trial of chosing 1 can from 10, you decide that you have identified the target, the remainder of the targets do not need to be dowsed by you.
Ask just that.
I'd be intrigued by their answer.
Let's say on one of the trials you say that the FIRST canister has the target in it and then do not dowse the other 9.
When you fail the Preliminary test, JREF will be open to accusations of cheating in the test by "denying" you the opportunity to test all canisters.
Either by you, or by other detractors.
Ask JREF directly. Only that question.
If, during a trial of chosing 1 can from 10, you decide that you have identified the target, the remainder of the targets do not need to be dowsed by you.
Ask just that.
I'd be intrigued by their answer.
Edge, what you call "arrogance" is nothing but the knowledge that "successful dowsing" would mean a new law of physics.
Hundreds of years of collecting a couple dozen exabytes of data suggest that "dowsing" does not work.
The arrogance is on you, edge.
And the chestnut "...honest chance..."? LO EFFING L!!!
Are you already preemptively excusing the by yourself anticipated spectacular failure?
Do what you claim to be able to do and receive the Million Dollar Prize. It's that simple.
As long as I can resist jamming a fork in my eye or shoving a spoon up my tuckus.
This thread should drive it home once and for all:
Do not, repeat, do not open a paranormal challenge to laypersons. (Of course it won't, but it should.)
Paulhoff
You can't expect perfection.
- Joined
- May 1, 2005
- Messages
- 12,512
The rules have been changed, edge must have gotten in under the wire.
Paul
To be honest
, edge has applied in time.