[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

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Offutt AFB is not dual use. It is only military. You have not found one correct fact yet. Have you? Not a think in this post make any sense or is close to reality.

That is patently incorrect. Offutt is most certainly dual use. It was also the scene of a celebrity golf tournamnet on 9/11. When the airport was closed from dawn onwards, except for the use of celebrity executive jets.
That is common knowledge.
 
The MiG-25 can theoretically do Mach 3.2, but in reality it was limited to Mach 2.8, and even at that speed it would over speed the turbines and risk the airframe. Over Mach 2.8, although the engines could produce the thrust to achieve it, they would also start to break apart. Mach 3.2 would result in total destruction of the aircraft.

Likewise the speed of the SR-71 was limited by its engines. The P&W J58s were designed for normal operation at Mach 3, and unclassified benchmark tests never exceeded Mach 3.6.

It is theorised that the maximum speed the SR-71 would be capable of reaching is Mach 3.44, as at that speed maximum engine intake temperature would be exceeded and the engine would begin to unstart.

-Gumboot
 
Malcolm, I have only one question: why don't you apply the same scrutiny to Killtown as you do the 'official story'?
 
There is no such word as 'fantastical'.


Yes there is. Buy a dictionary.



In reply to the rest of your post allow me to refer you to my immediate previous posts.

Your previous posts do not address the issue. There were no alert fighters available at Andrews AFB on 9/11. This is a fact. You cannot sidestep it. You cannot bluff your way around it.

-Gumboot
 
The MiG-25 can theoretically do Mach 3.2, but in reality it was limited to Mach 2.8, and even at that speed it would over speed the turbines and risk the airframe. Over Mach 2.8, although the engines could produce the thrust to achieve it, they would also start to break apart. Mach 3.2 would result in total destruction of the aircraft.

Likewise the speed of the SR-71 was limited by its engines. The P&W J58s were designed for normal operation at Mach 3, and unclassified benchmark tests never exceeded Mach 3.6.

It is theorised that the maximum speed the SR-71 would be capable of reaching is Mach 3.44, as at that speed maximum engine intake temperature would be exceeded and the engine would begin to unstart.

-Gumboot
Even as far back as the F104, the max speed recorded for the type (which held the record for some time) was simply the fastest anybody had gone in one and lived to tell about it.

All this about max speeds is, however, entirely moot when talking about interception. High speed is expedient for getting you to the battleground fast, but not for actually fighting. That was a realization that came during the Vietnam War: Most air to air combat still takes place at subsonic speeds, and a gun is still an important weapon. There is a reason emphasis in current fighter design is still on subsonic performance, with top speed as a secondary parameter.

On 911, fighters intecepting the hijacked planes would need to get to the area, find the plane, match velocity with it, get a positive ID, and only then could they contemplate firing. In this context, just how many seconds they would need to cover a given distance at top speed is rather irrelevant.

Hans
 
How long does it take the missile defence to prep, warm up, brief and take off?
Allow me to start the bidding at one second.

Do I hear never ? Yes, Belz... ! Going once...

There were no missile defenses at the Pentagon.

Going twice...

Unless you can provide proof that there were.

Going three times...

I don't see that you can.

SOLD. To the devilish lad in the back!
 
malcolm kirkman said:
You are confusing 175 (which landed at Cleveland according to the available evidence).

Present this evidence. I suppose that evidence will be something terribly obvious...

You're not sure that a plane can overfly the Pentagon by, say 100 ft and land at Reagan. Planes land at Reagan every day at a similar height but slightly
more north to south in approach line and closer to the Potomac.
There is nothing unusual at that.

Of course there is. Only in the CTers' twisted minds will no one notice these things. If Hollywood pictures warp your view of reality, stop watching them.

That's enough for one post and should be enough to raise your suspicions.

Evidence, Malcolm. EVIDENCE. Not suspicions, not speculation, not theories. EVIDENCE.

Especially Killtown, I recommend his site unreservedly.

Yes, he's a prime example of how NOT to interpret evidence.



Malcolm, you still didn't answer my point about the B-25 and the decidedly non-pointed nose into the Empire State Building.

Malcolm, you still haven't adressed my question about D-Day. Did it happen ? Yes or No ?

Your failure to adress this points reflects very badly on your image as a reasonable poster.
 
There is no such word as 'fantastical'.

Oh, yes there is.

See, trying to correct people on their English when you don't know what you're talking about makes you look silly. Why did you not check a dictionary beforehand ? It's the same with all other subjects, you know.
 
Does the evidence include the engine that was found at the scene. The engine that patently did not power 175?
You have not substantiated this claim. Critiques were levelled against the evidence you provided, and you have not addressed them.
There is no such word as 'fantastical'.
In reply to the rest of your post allow me to refer you to my immediate previous posts.
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fantastical
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fantastical
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/fantastical.html

Do you concede that the visual record of the impact shows no indication that the plane was anything other than UA Flight 175?
 
You are mistaken. The word is an adjective and easily located in any dictionary.
Maybe he didn't see it because he was looking for a "verb transitive."

MK, you still have zero evidence to support your assertions. We still have open the identity of the engine in NYC, if you'd like to try to back up what you've claimed.

I've tried to look up info on the Offutt golf tournament, and it's hard to find anything that's not tainted with the touch of Killtown, but so far I've come up with this:
  • Warren Buffett lives in Omaha, so having the tournament on a course near his town is not surprising.
  • He had been having his tournament for nine years in a row (boy those Neocons plan ahead).
  • The tournament did not go ahead once the attacks on the country started.
  • There were no significant exercises that day that affected the Air Force.
  • I haven't found anything about the AFB runways being closed that day. In my experience, golf tournaments start early in the morning, so the execs flying in would likely have done so on the 10th. But, maybe they cut down on the flights that day to reduce the noise for the participants. I'd need more data.
  • If an Offutt jet had an emergency, it would still be able to land there. Get real.
 
You have not substantiated this claim. Critiques were levelled against the evidence you provided, and you have not addressed them.

http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fantastical
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fantastical
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/fantastical.html

Do you concede that the visual record of the impact shows no indication that the plane was anything other than UA Flight 175?

My posts are being monitored to such an extent that it's getting impossible to communicate. I'll try for a little while longer.
The plane that hit tower 2 was decidedly not 175.
 
My posts are being monitored to such an extent that it's getting impossible to communicate. I'll try for a little while longer.
The plane that hit tower 2 was decidedly not 175.
Perhaps you could elaborate on how "monitoring" your posts interferes with your ability to communicate.
 
About posting snide remarks

Tom Reed, Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, in office from December 4, 1889 to March 4, 1891 and again from December 2, 1895 to March 4, 1899, once said of two particularly choice members of the House, "Whenever they open their mouths, the sum of human knowledge is decreased."

He lived in the days before forum mods, so he got away with that crack. But if I plagiarize it and apply it to friend Malcolm, I get modulated.

The Spit was the most beautiful single-seat fighter of WW 2. No second, no third. Something about that ogival wing just breaks your heart.

The prettiest fighter, imho, was the P-39 Airacobra. If it had had breasts, guys would have married it! Yes, I know, American pilots called it the Lead Sled and other ungentlemanly things, but the Russians got good use out of it not primarily in ground attack as we're often told, but as a low-altitude interceptor. So you see, it was beautiful.
 
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My posts are being monitored to such an extent that it's getting impossible to communicate. I'll try for a little while longer.
The plane that hit tower 2 was decidedly not 175.
That does not answer my question. I asked (emphasis added):
me said:
Do you concede that the visual record of the impact shows no indication that the plane was anything other than UA Flight 175?
If you do not concede on the issue of the visual record, then we should not be moving on to Offutt, or any other AFB, as a new talking point.
 
Perhaps you could elaborate on how "monitoring" your posts interferes with your ability to communicate.

I gave a perhaps 2,000 words comprehensive explanation with regard to how D Day was pesented to the Germans as a diversion. how it would have been presented to us in the same way, had it failed. How the Pas de Calaise came next, followe by the south of france. There were no references to anyone on this site, therefore there could be no ad homs. Yet the post went the same way as over 3,000 people on 9/11 - vapourised.
That is one example.
 
I believe Killtown.

Obviously. But did you check out his claims and read any counter arguments to his evidence?

Killtown's theories as a general rule hold up poorly to scrutiny, even among other members of the truth movement; the fact that you take him for gospel just because you 'believe him' is telling.
 
I believe Killtown.
That is exhibiting the following:

confirmation bias

"It is the peculiar and perpetual error of the human understanding to be more moved and excited by affirmatives than by negatives." --Francis Bacon
Confirmation bias refers to a type of selective thinking whereby one tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs. For example, if you believe that during a full moon there is an increase in admissions to the emergency room where you work, you will take notice of admissions during a full moon, but be inattentive to the moon when admissions occur during other nights of the month. A tendency to do this over time unjustifiably strengthens your belief in the relationship between the full moon and accidents and other lunar effects.
This tendency to give more attention and weight to data that support our beliefs than we do to contrary data is especially pernicious when our beliefs are little more than prejudices. If our beliefs are firmly established on solid evidence and valid confirmatory experiments, the tendency to give more attention and weight to data that fit with our beliefs should not lead us astray as a rule. Of course, if we become blinded to evidence truly refuting a favored hypothesis, we have crossed the line from reasonableness to closed-mindedness.
Numerous studies have demonstrated that people generally give an excessive amount of value to confirmatory information, that is, to positive or supportive data. The "most likely reason for the excessive influence of confirmatory information is that it is easier to deal with cognitively" (Gilovich 1993). It is much easier to see how a piece of data supports a position than it is to see how it might count against the position. Consider a typical ESP experiment or a seemingly clairvoyant dream: Successes are often unambiguous or data are easily massaged to count as successes, while negative instances require intellectual effort to even see them as negative or to consider them as significant. The tendency to give more attention and weight to the positive and the confirmatory has been shown to influence memory. When digging into our memories for data relevant to a position, we are more likely to recall data that confirms the position (ibid.).
Researchers are sometimes guilty of confirmation bias by setting up experiments or framing their data in ways that will tend to confirm their hypotheses. They compound the problem by proceeding in ways that avoid dealing with data that would contradict their hypotheses. For example, some parapsychologists used to engage in optional starting and stopping in their ESP research. Experimenters might avoid or reduce confirmation bias by collaborating in experimental design with colleagues who hold contrary hypotheses, as Richard Wiseman (skeptic) and Marilyn Schlitz (proponent) have done.* Individuals have to constantly remind themselves of this tendency and actively seek out data contrary to their beliefs. Since this is unnatural, it appears that the ordinary person is doomed to bias.
See also ad hoc hypothesis, cognitive dissonance, communal reinforcement, control study, selective thinking, and self-deception.
For examples of confirmation bias in action, see "alternative" health practice, curse, ESP, intuitive, lunar effect, personology, plant perception, the Sokal hoax, therapeutic touch, and thought field therapy.
further reading
reader comments
To see confirmation bias at work, review the conspiracy theories offered for the JFK assassination. It is a good lesson to observe how easily intelligent people can see intricate connections and patterns that support their viewpoint and how easily they can see the faults in viewpoints contrary to their own. As long as one ignores certain facts and accepts speculation as fact, one can prove just about anything to one's own satisfaction.
Belsky, Gary and Thomas Gilovich. Why Smart People Make Big Money Mistakes-And How to Correct Them: Lessons from the New Science of Behavioral Economics (Fireside, 2000).
Evans, B. Bias in Human Reasoning: Causes and Consequences (Psychology Press, 1990).
Gilovich, Thomas. How We Know What Isn't' So: The Fallibility of Human Reason in Everyday Life (New York: The Free Press, 1993).
Levine, Robert. The Power of Persuasion - How We're Bought and Sold by (John Wiley & Sons 2003) Reason, James. Human Error (Cambridge University Press 1990).
Shermer, Michael. The Borderlands of Science: Where Sense Meets Nonsense (Oxford University Press 2002).
©copyright 2006
[SIZE=-2]Robert Todd Carroll[/SIZE]
http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html
 
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