[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

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A jet could have got from Andrews to the Pentagon, tarmac to Pentagon in under 30 seconds. Try doing what happened for real and see how far you get.
In the event of a war, the safest place in the world to be, would be in a deckchair on the Pentagon roof.

Did you make up the 30 second figure ? Or do you have a link we could read that shows this to be true ?

I take it, we can now proceed to Offutt, albeit under protest.

Wow. Just... wow. The man tells you that you've tacitly admitted to being wrong, and now you claim victory on that point ?

The proper way to investigate a crime is to thrash every issue to death.

Well you've certainly done some thrashing, here. Flailing about, actually.

You must then explore all other avenues, anything, anything vaguely suspicious.

That's just paranoid.

I knew it wasn't 175, so I looked to who was behind it as moslems clearly weren't.

You know, admitting to having a closed mind and preconceived, unassailable beliefs isn't going to advance your position, here.

A quick look at Silverstein and a quick look is all you need, drugs, nightclubs, I remember the days when tenements were falling like flies in NY. A NY landlord, connections etc. That's connections going down the social scale.

DRUGS ??? OMFG! Inside job!!1111

TWICE CONDEMNED towers

You need to do some actual research before you continue to embarass yourself in this way.

They just miscalculated the power of the internet. Now everybody and their uncle knows.

That's a nice theory, but we're still waiting for any form of evidence. So far, you've got claims. It's fun, but inconsequential.
 
You've missed one out,
121, Over three thousand innocent office workers allowed to go work inside a ready to explode giant bomb, then vapourised.
Irrelevant.

You've got an amazing ability to ignore other people's points, I'll give you that.


Everything.

The top speed of the fastest fighter is ?

Not mach 5.

I originally said thirty seconds, to be told obtusely, that it takes five minutes to warm up etc. I then said about ten seconds. We are now in the process of agreeing a time.

No, you're in the process of going from wrong to wronger.

I will then highlight the impossibility of anything flying, to get near me in my deckchair on th Pentagon roof. Because such an intruder would have to get through two rings of steel not one.

What in the blue hell are you talking about, now ?
 
Now you're cooking on gas, very good. :)
The slogan was "cooking with gas."

When you do your calculations showing how long it takes to go from liftoff at Andrews to the Pentagon, is that number actually going to matter? It's pretty quick - a lot more than 10 seconds, but still possible within a two or three minutes for sure.

But so what? Were the jets there fueled, armed, warmed up, and ready for combat? Were the pilots briefed? And did they have authorization to fire on a civilian airliner? To have a meaningful relation to the events of the day, you have to figure the time to accomplish each of those other steps. And remember, you have only ten minutes from the time you first learn AA77 is approaching.
 
I take it, we can now proceed to Offutt, albeit under protest.



How about no? Why would we proceed to Offutt when there is still plenty of unfinished business from the claims in your very first post, some 1400 posts ago.

And you still have not provided any evidence(except for some extremely poor analysis on the aircrafts dimensions) that the WTC2 plane was not United 175, or that navigating a 767 is beyond the capability of the hijackers, or that the engine section found was not part of a JT9D, or that 767-sized military twin-jet "bad boys" have steel wings and are extremely underpowered using CFM56 engines, or that Raytheon flew any airliner at all with remote control, or basically anything else you've asserted in this thread.
 
The top speed of the fastest fighter is ?

Less than Mach 5. Mach 3.2 was a long-standing record by a highly modified Russian attack fighter. For non-fighter aircraft, the SR-71 held a classified top world air speed, listed only as "in excess of Mach 3" for some time. The only verifiable record is actualy under Mach 3.

Since all attack aircraft would qualify for the record, and since the Blackbird holds the record currently at under Mach 3, the fastest fighter flies less than Mach 3.
 
The slogan was "cooking with gas."

When you do your calculations showing how long it takes to go from liftoff at Andrews to the Pentagon, is that number actually going to matter? It's pretty quick - a lot more than 10 seconds, but still possible within a two or three minutes for sure.

But so what? Were the jets there fueled, armed, warmed up, and ready for combat? Were the pilots briefed? And did they have authorization to fire on a civilian airliner? To have a meaningful relation to the events of the day, you have to figure the time to accomplish each of those other steps. And remember, you have only ten minutes from the time you first learn AA77 is approaching.
Just looking at travel time

Distance (miles)|Avg Speed (mph)|Time (minutes)|Time (seconds)
10|60|10|600
10|120|5|300
10|240|2.5|150
10|480|1.25|75
10|960|.675|37.5
10|1920|.3375|18.75
10|3840|.16875|9.875
 
That's very generous of you, modesty forbids that I accept. I think Alex Jones, Rosie O'D, Charlie sheen, Aaron Russo, The Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice, Kucinich, Ron Paul, Dylan Avery of course, Bob Bowman, Stepen Jones, Cindy Sheehan, David Ray Griffin, Kevin Barrett, Killtown of course.
There are just so many, that I couldn't possibly accept. I've only been involved for a few weeks, people like Lori Price have been battling the MSM for years. Pilots for 9/11 truth, The Penta Con, Study of 911, 911 Truth, the sites alone would take hours to type out.
I am moved, but I couldn't possibly accept.
:boggled: Killtown?

580MPH+120 feet=700 feet Killtown?

:eek: :covereyes :boggled:
 
Less than Mach 5. Mach 3.2 was a long-standing record by a highly modified Russian attack fighter. For non-fighter aircraft, the SR-71 held a classified top world air speed, listed only as "in excess of Mach 3" for some time. The only verifiable record is actualy under Mach 3.

Since all attack aircraft would qualify for the record, and since the Blackbird holds the record currently at under Mach 3, the fastest fighter flies less than Mach 3.
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Max Level Speed [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]at altitude: 2,275 mph (3,660 km/h) at 80,000 ft (24,385 m), Mach 3.35 [world record]
[/FONT]
The SR was the fastest. I bet it could go faster. Take 60 miles a minute and subtract .8 Mach. I bet in descent it could egress at speeds we would expect to be classified. I doubt the MIG25 could go much faster than it's record.

I know for a fact one of the records the SR-71 tried to set were slowed by the simple time needed to finish refueling and getting up to speed. Like the last trip for the one put in the Museum in DC at the end of the program in 1990. Before it came back for one last time.
 
Less than Mach 5. Mach 3.2 was a long-standing record by a highly modified Russian attack fighter. For non-fighter aircraft, the SR-71 held a classified top world air speed, listed only as "in excess of Mach 3" for some time. The only verifiable record is actualy under Mach 3.

Since all attack aircraft would qualify for the record, and since the Blackbird holds the record currently at under Mach 3, the fastest fighter flies less than Mach 3.
Remember the SR-71 would be over MACH 3 every operational mission. The SR-71 would be over MACH 3 for over 40 minutes at a time, the MIG 25 would be out of fuel in a tenth of that time, and it's operational normal max of 2.83 MACH, was the MAX it could do. The 3.2 MACH speed record was done by a stripped down version of the MIG25. The SR-71 records were set by normal line aircraft, and it was over MACH 3 on every mission unless it was broke. MACH 3+ was a day to day speed for the SR-71, not some one time deal.

But our truther who likes Killtown, forgot that there were no fighters on alert at Andrews and it takes time to load weapons, recall weapon loaders, find pilots, etc.
 
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Max Level Speed [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]at altitude: 2,275 mph (3,660 km/h) at 80,000 ft (24,385 m), Mach 3.35 [world record]
[/FONT]

Not that I'm doubting you, but source?

The SR was the fastest. I bet it could go faster. Take 60 miles a minute and subtract .8 Mach. I bet in descent it could egress at speeds we would expect to be classified. I doubt the MIG25 could go much faster than it's record.

He was asking about attack fighters, but since no attack fighter holds the world record, and the record holder wasn't Mach 5, it was a good enough explanation.


I know for a fact one of the records the SR-71 tried to set were slowed by the simple time needed to finish refueling and getting up to speed. Like the last trip for the one put in the Museum in DC at the end of the program in 1990. Before it came back for one last time.

The government still maintains its top speed as classified, though I've heard from at least one pilot that they topped Mach 4 before.
 
F-22 Mach 1.7-2.0
F18: Mach 1.80-1.88
F16: Mach 1.95-2.01
F15: Mach 2.5
F14: Mach 2-2.34
depending on source


Top 10 fastest aircraft:
[table=""]#|Plane|Top Speed|Max. Altitude
1.
|X-43 (Unmanned)|Mach 9.8|110,000 feet
2.
|X-15|Mach 6.72|354,200 feet
The X-15 is the fastest manned aircraft in the world.
3.
|SR-71 Blackbird (YF-12)|Mach 3.2+|85,000+ feet
The SR-71 Blackbird is the fastest airplane in the world.
4.
|MiG-25R Foxbat-B|Mach 3.2|123,524 feet
4.
|X-2|Mach 3.2|126,200 feet
5.
|XB-70 Valkyrie|Mach 3.1|77,350 feet
6.
|MiG-31 Foxhound|Mach 2.8|367,600 feet
7.
|MiG-25 Foxbat (Ye-155)|Mach 2.8|118,900 feet
8.
|F-15 Eagle|Mach 2.5|60,000 feet
8.
|F-111 Aardvark|Mach 2.5|60,000+ feet
9.
|X-1|Mach 2.435|90,440 feet
10.
|Su-24 Fencer|Mach 2.4|57,400 feet|[/table]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2666163
Thank you for that, a most impressive and comprehensive list. Your estimate from lift off to cover the ten miles would be what 20, 30 secs?
 
So is Reagan International airport inside or outside these rings of steel? Just asking because I heard that planes occasionally land there and was wondering if they all have to dodge fighter planes and missiles. If so I think I might avoid flying to Washington.
You are being facetious of course with your first question. It's funny you should mention Reagan, because I believe that's where the Pentagon overflight landed on 9/11.
 
Now for the important part of the question: how long from identifying the potential threat to take off? I'd say 25 minutes, maybe more.
 
Wow, I was wrong about that. I should have said, "Once in a couple of thousand times".


Here is list of kamikaze strikes on and damage to all Allied carriers (CV, CVL, and CVE).

"Total" includes all kamikaze hits, including near misses and debris strikes from shot-down suicide aircraft:

CV-3 USS Saratoga Total: 5 Flight deck: 2 Penetrating: 0

Note: One flight deck hit struck a catapult, a heavily reinforced structure.

CV-6 USS Enterprise Total: 3 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 1

CV-8 USS Hornet Total: 2 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

Note: Hornet was sunk in 1942, before kamikaze attacks were official Japanese policy. The two suicide attacks were carried out by Japanese aircraft that had been badly damaged by antiaircraft fire. See here for a description of the aircraft strike locations. I include these attacks for completeness.

CV-9 USS Essex Total: 2 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 0

Note: Flight deck hit was at deck edge. See here.

CV-11 USS Intrepid Total: 5 Flight deck: 3 Penetrating: 3

Note: One penetrating hit was near the same spot previously penetrated by another kamikaze. See here.

CV-13 USS Franklin Total: 3 Flight deck: 2 Penetrating: 1

CV-14 USS Ticonderoga Total: 2 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 1

CV-15 USS Randolph Total: 1 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

CV-16 USS Lexington Total: 1 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

Note: Here is a photo showing the location of the hit.

CV-17 USS Bunker Hill Total: 2 Flight deck: 2 Penetrating: 1

Note: See here for additional information on the damage and an interesting postscript.

CV-19 USS Hancock Total: 2 Flight deck: 2 Penetrating: 0

Note: One kamikaze exploded 300 ft above ship; some large aircraft parts landed on flight deck. See here.

CVL-24 USS Belleau Wood Total: 1 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 0

Note: Shot down; crashed on flight deck.

CVL-28 USS Cabot Total: 2 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 0

Note: Flight deck hit was at deck edge. See here.

CVE-26 USS Sangamon Total: 1 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 1

CVE-27 USS Suwanee Total: 2 Flight deck: 2 Penetrating: 1

CVE-29 USS Santee Total: 1 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 1

CVE-61 USS Manila Bay Total: 2 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 0

CVE-62 USS Natoma Bay Total: 1 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 1

CVE-63 USS St. Lo Total: 1 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 0

Note: Although the aircraft itself did not penetrate the flight deck, its bomb did, starting severe fires which eventually resulted in a magazine explosion and the loss of the ship.

CVE-65 USS Wake Island Total: 2 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

CVE-66 USS White Plains Total: 1 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

CVE-68 USS Kalinin Bay Total: 2 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 1

CVE-71 USS Kitkun Bay Total: 2 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

CVE-76 USS Kadashan Bay Total: 1 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

CVE-77 USS Marcus Island Total: 2 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

Note: Both attacks were near misses, one of which "clipped the flight deck."

CVE-78 USS Savo Island Total: 1 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

CVE-79 USS Ommaney Bay Total: 1 Flight deck: * Penetrating: *

Note: The ship was lost as a result of this attack, and accounts differ as to whether the flight deck or the island was struck, and whether the aircraft itself penetrated the flight deck, or just its bombs.

CVE-94 USS Lunga Point Total: 1 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 0

Note: This was an "impromptu" kamikaze attack by an aircraft that had just launched a torpedo at the ship, so the angle of incidence and momentum were obviously nowhere near that of a diving kamikaze.

CVE-95 USS Bismarck Sea Total: 2 Flight deck: 2 Penetrating: 1

Note: The ship was lost as a result of this attack. Authoritative online sources are vague about the locations of the strikes. Hearsay accounts seem to indicate that at least one kamikaze struck the flight deck and penetrated; one account implies that the other kamikaze struck the aft elevator but did not penetrate. See here and here.

CVE-96 USS Salamaua Total: 1 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 1

Note: See here for a first-hand description of the damage.

10 HMS Indefatigable Total: 1 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 0

Note: Struck at junction of flight deck and island.

38 HMS Victorious Total: 3 Flight deck: 2 Penetrating: 0

Notes: One flight-deck strike was characterized as a "glancing blow." The other created a 25-foot square hole in the flight deck, although the aircraft did not penetrate.

67 HMS Formidable Total: 2 Flight deck: 2 Penetrating: 0

Note: One strike created a two-foot hole through which three aircraft fragments penetrated.

87 HMS Illustrious Total: 1 Flight deck: 0 Penetrating: 0

92 HMS Indomitable Total: 1 Flight deck: 1 Penetrating: 0

Note: Aircraft "belly landed" next to the island.

Altogether, the total number of hits and near misses scored by kamikazes on Allied carriers is about 63. Of those, at most 29 struck a wooden flight deck, and at least 14 of these penetrated. Even eliminating one of the strikes on Intrepid that hit a previously damaged area, we still have 13 kamikazes that definitely penetrated a wooden flight deck. Even at the worst case, that's 13 out of 28, or nearly 50%.

If, for reasons noted above, we eliminate one non-penetrating strike each from Saratoga, Intrepid, Hancock, Belleau Wood, Cabot, and Lunga Point from our sample set, the rate is 13/22, or about 59%. So we can state with confidence that the chances of a pre-planned, successfully pressed-home kamikaze attack's being able to penetrate a wooden flight deck would have been about 50%.

Now, Malcolm, if you would, please explain why you claimed that only "one or two" kamikaze attacks out of "a couple of thousand" penetrated a wooden flight deck, and what this says about your credibility. But, hey, what's a couple of orders of magnitude between friends, right? :rolleyes:
 
Not that I'm doubting you, but source?

He was asking about attack fighters, but since no attack fighter holds the world record, and the record holder wasn't Mach 5, it was a good enough explanation.

The government still maintains its top speed as classified, though I've heard from at least one pilot that they topped Mach 4 before.
I am the source. I had to speed up and stay in front of him to refuel him. The source is many place. I just know it is common knowledge with pilots who worked with the SR, I only refueled them in flight, I mean the crew and I.

I was just adding some information, you are right, there are no air breathing MACH 5 fighters. And 3.2 can be found for the MIG25 foxbat.

I looked up the speed record, but I also agree the SR-71 can beat the MIG 25, and it did all the time in the real world. Just look up SR-71 and you can find multiple sources for the speed records. When you see some of the records the SR set, remember some of them he got off the boom late and was slow getting to top speed, you can only imagine the top speed in those cases.
 
Scramble alert to pilot strapped into a hot aircraft roll out to runway button at 30 MPH - 1 minute

acellerate down runway on full afterburner and wheels up - 30 seconds
acellerate under full afteburner to max velocity of 3000 MPH - 60 seconds(means a forward g force of about 2g's)
flight time 10 miles - 12 seconds

total - close to 3 minutes IF the plane was hot and the pilot already in it.

Arriving over target doing 3000 MPH with little manouverability going about 8 times faster than my potential target, guns unreliable at this speed, in 1 more second being a mile past my potential target.

Yeah, all sounds like just what would be required.
malcolm, a fighter also has to slow down to engage the target and decelleration occurs much slower than acelleration and my having the aircraft acellerate at 2 g's may well be way too fast. Why don't you post the max acelleration of any jet you choose to be the interceptor.
 
You are being facetious of course with your first question.
He's not being facetious. Reagan National is well inside your impenetrable "Ring of Steel". From the SE wall of the Pentagon to the closest of Reagan's Runways is less than 4000 feet.

I believe that's where the Pentagon overflight landed on 9/11.
I thought they landed in Cleveland? So now you're including the ground crews and staff at one of the biggest airports in the country in your scenario? Also, I'm not sure its physically possible for a jet to fly over the pentagon, turn and land at those speeds. Of course you're welcome to present some sort of evidence to back this extraordinary claim up.
 
Now for the important part of the question: how long from identifying the potential threat to take off? I'd say 25 minutes, maybe more.

How long does it take the missile defence to prep, warm up, brief and take off?
Allow me to start the bidding at one second.
 
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