[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

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malcolm kirkman said:
In 2001 a GPS was not a lot smaller than a house brick. At the moment do we have our hijackers with boxcutter in one pocket, GPS in the other and flight plans down the front of their shirts. I do recollect photos of them with no jackets.
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In 2001, a GPS receiver could be made as small as a one inch square. I was doing development work on a device that used the SiRF Star GPS receiver. (Embedded location of two-way radios.)

Complete GPS receivers for personal use were available in hand-held units. Hell, in ~1998 there were portable (walkie talkie type) aviation two-way radios that included maps of all US airports. GPS receiver the size of a brick my a$$.

BTW:
Would you folks PLEASE refer to GPS receivers as such? A GPS is a Global Positioning System. That's all the satellites and ground stations needed to provide the signals that the GPS RECEIVERS detect and use to calculate positions. Yes, it is pedantic, but it grates my nerves the same way PIN number does (Personal Identification Number number. Gaaaaah!!.)
 
malcolm kirkman said:
I take it, we can now proceed to Offutt, albeit under protest.
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Please don't proceed to Offutt yet. There are still the unresolved matters of the engine identification, and whether an aluminum plane can penetrate a tower with steel perimeter columns. Let's stick to a couple of open issues at a time.

And to all the regulars, could you help with this? Let's not get sidetracked on Offutt, golf tournaments, pedophiles, or WWII history until we resolve the other two.
 
[derail]
malcolm kirkman said:
5. The only way we could have been thrown back into the sea was if panzers came down from the Pas de Calaise or came up from Italy in time.
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Italy had been invaded by Allied forces in September, 1943. The likelyhood of taking armored divisions out of the Italian theatre and drive them across France to the Normandy Invasion site is low. They were also being sent dispatches from double agents that the invasion might also come in southern France and Romania. The were many agents involved: "Garbo"- the Spanish agent you mentioned. "Brutus"- a Polish officer that the Germans believed would spy for them, but turned the moment he arrived in Britain. "Tricycle"- a native of Yugoslavia. All their dispatches were conceived by the XX (double-cross)Committee under Operration Bodygusrd.
Had either happened we would have bombed the southern panzers into extinction before they could get back south and invaded the south of France.
Alternatively Patten would have hit the Pas de Calaise, had the panzers there gone south.
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Patton had no force to hit Pas-de-Calais with. FUSAG was a fictional force created to fool the Germans.
The invasion landing craft were steered by Royal Marine Commandos, in order to ensure accuracy. In order to know where those commandos were in the days following D Day, you need to have family connections, as I do.
Patten's 'invisible' army, together with it's insignia etc, may not have been so invisible after all.
Click to expand...
Under Operation Fortitude fake vehicles were built, empty tents and buildings were erected, and a fake division insignia were created.[/derail]
It's knowing stuff like that, that has made seeing through 9/11 so easy for me. What the government does and what it tells Joe Public may occasionally coincide. When that does happen, chances are, it's more by accident than design.
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Your "family connections" apparently failed when it came to schooling, given the large number of errors you believe to be facts. Physics, Biology, Metalurgy, History, Grammar, Spelling, and Debate were apparently subjects that other people took.
 
CurtC said:
Please don't proceed to Offutt yet. There are still the unresolved matters of the engine identification, and whether an aluminum plane can penetrate a tower with steel perimeter columns. Let's stick to a couple of open issues at a time.

And to all the regulars, could you help with this? Let's not get sidetracked on Offutt, golf tournaments, pedophiles, or WWII history until we resolve the other two.
Click to expand...
I more than satisfied myself about Offutt, long before I knew about the engines. The proper way to investigate a crime is to thrash every issue to death. To go with the flow on all issues, all possibilities. I went along with the hijacks for a while, until the discrepancies started to show. You must then explore all other avenues, anything, anything vaguely suspicious. The entry of the plane did it for me, that started me off.
The truth is like finding gold in the ground. You see a bit of a shine, brush a bit of dirt away, do a bit of digging and it shines more and more, until you know. The truth is the same, do a bit of digging, it shows more and more, then it's there and you can't get beyond it. You can't get beyond the truth.
I knew it wasn't 175, so I looked to who was behind it as moslems clearly weren't. A quick look at Silverstein and a quick look is all you need, drugs, nightclubs, I remember the days when tenements were falling like flies in NY. A NY landlord, connections etc. That's connections going down the social scale. WTC 7 came down like a shot cow. So who is keeping Silverstein out of the bag? That takes you to the owners of the Port Authority, Rockefeller and the other 'Banksters'. You look at the twins themselves and you see certificates twice refused, asbestos, no wiring for the internet, corrosion of the facade, refusal to demolish, except by handballing.
Now we've got the Banksters and a saving of $15 billion in handballing the TWICE CONDEMNED towers down and Silverstein the man on the spot.
It's just the old insurance bit, but on a bit bigger scale. They had a go with a van a few years ago, this time they've gotta do it right, otherwise it's going to become a standing joke and nobody's gonna believe foul play.
This time they have to do a proper job, no slip ups.
Now everything becomes clear, the key to it all, is to understand that someone has to OK the plan. A plan that can't afford to go wrong.
When you Occum's razor this hijack nonsense, nobody would OK it.
What might they OK. How about a nice quiet lift off in the middle of the night, a steady flight due east, with an executive jet riding shotgun. Those in the small jet can see the people empty plane heading east towards the dawn. Then it's a simple hand off to the homing beacon.
I can present that to the Banksters and as added security, I can point to the up, down ride around trials that have been a success. It's a guaranteed hit. The Banksters will go for it. What about a cover story? How about the old standby, arab terrorists. Now you're killing two birds with one stone. Now you can enrich the likes of Cheney. So you throw in one more plane and Cheney lets it get through to the Pentagon. You've got the MSM in your pocket, where's the problem?
They just miscalculated the power of the internet. Now everybody and their uncle knows.
When you start with someone having to OK the plan and no one can come up with a viable hijack scenario, then it aint rocket science to figure out which plan is going to be adopted.
Follow that line of thinking and as you go along, more flesh gets put on the bones. For example, when I started this thread, I didn't know about the engines. The truth just keeps rolling in. The gold shines more and more.
 
CptColumbo said:
[derail]
Italy had been invaded by Allied forces in September, 1943. The likelyhood of taking armored divisions out of the Italian theatre and drive them across France to the Normandy Invasion site is low. They were also being sent dispatches from double agents that the invasion might also come in southern France and Romania. The were many agents involved: "Garbo"- the Spanish agent you mentioned. "Brutus"- a Polish officer that the Germans believed would spy for them, but turned the moment he arrived in Britain. "Tricycle"- a native of Yugoslavia. All their dispatches were conceived by the XX (double-cross)Committee under Operration Bodygusrd.Patton had no force to hit Pas-de-Calais with. FUSAG was a fictional force created to fool the Germans.
Under Operation Fortitude fake vehicles were built, empty tents and buildings were erected, and a fake division insignia were created.[/derail]

Your "family connections" apparently failed when it came to schooling, given the large number of errors you believe to be facts. Physics, Biology, Metalurgy, History, Grammar, Spelling, and Debate were apparently subjects that other people took.
Click to expand...

1. Not true. The panzers were on their way and were only slowed down by OSS putting grahite in the oil cans of the rail waggons.
FUSAG wasn't the end of it. I've just told you where the landing craft went on June 7th.
Fortitude is correct.
I am unable to respond to your last point.
 
gmarshall said:
You are most certainly correct. I've never gone through airport security without passing through a metal detector. The leatherman tool (with knife) was simply placed in the tray along my car keys and loose change so that I could pass the detector without setting it off. The knife was in plain site of airport security without any trouble since it met the current (and lax) restrictions of the day.
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Thank you for that, you're the first person to acknowledge that I've got something right. I can't comment on the knife, but it does rather make obsolete the metal detector/ X Ray machine, don't you think?
 
gumboot said:
Mohammed Atta's passport was recovered before either tower had collapsed, in the street. Was it in perfect condition? No. Was its discovery and intentional act perpetrated by "clever" Mohammed Atta? No.
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It wasn't Atta's passport found near the WTC anyway, it was Satam al-Suqami's. Media reports have frequently misreported it as Atta's, though, as even the CTists have noted. Two other hijacker passports were found in the Flight 93 wreckage. (Note that Atta, al-Suqami and the Flight 93 hijackers were of course not aboard Flight 175, the ostensible topic of this thread.)

malcolm kirkman said:
Thank you for that, you're the first person to acknowledge that I've got something right. I can't comment on the knife, but it does rather make obsolete the metal detector/ X Ray machine, don't you think?
Click to expand...


Comedy gold, Mal, keep 'em coming.
 
You have yet to post a single verifiable, consequential fact.

Here are your assembled claims. Thanks to many who pointed out fallacies.

1. Raytheon, in Aug 2001, flew a passenger jet (...)
Inconsequential
2. Raytheon deal in small executive jets
Factually Incorrect
3. There is a very good reason for Raytheon not to interest themselves in flying passenger planes by remote control
Largely Incorrect and Inconsequential
4. The law requires that the passengers on any flight, have the flight crew present themselves to the passengers
Unverified and Inconsequential
5. No flight crew by the door = no flight.
Unverified and Inconsequential
6. Raytheon could have no legitimate reason, for flying a large passenger plane by remote control.
Factually Incorrect
7. Offutt AFB, is a joint civilian/military installation.
Inconsequential
8. Boeing and Raytheon were there.
Irrelevant
9. Boeing has been the subject of RICO law suits for over a decade.
Irrelevant
10. The military prefer daylight take offs.
Irrelevant
11. Any commander of an Air Force Base who closed his airport for ‘civilian’ reasons during massive war games, would face disciplinary action.
Unverified and Inconsequential
12.For the first time in history, a civilian politician was placed in direct command of Norad and other parts of the USAF.
Unverified and Irrelevant
13. In order to get a night-time take off from a military airfield, some compelling reason must be given.
Unverified and Irrelevant
14. Private civilian executive jets began arriving at dawn on 9/11, because of a celebrity golf tournament that day.
Inconsequential
15. Warren Buffet was persuaded out of retirement to host one last celebrity golf tournament.
Highly Irrelevant
16.Neocons are involved in paedophilia.
Ad Hominem and Irrelevant
17. Offut AFB is twenty minutes away from Boystown, Omaha.
Irrelevant
18. Boystown is steeped in allegations of paedophilia.
Unverified, Ad Hominem and Irrelevant
19. Things occurred (criminal convictions) in the Twin Towers apartment block
Irrelevant and Unverified
20.So many planes or non-planes were in the sky that morning, that air traffic controllers didn’t know a real plane from a blip on their screen.
Unverified
21. Air traffic controllers deal only with planes that are about to land in their area.
Unverified
22. All take offs from Offutt, for both Northern Vigilance, Vigilant warrior and any other reason, would have to be during the night of 9/10 – 9/11.
Unverified and Irrelevant
23. It was a hard nosed ex-military job that had a rocket to help the nose in and hard wings to slice into the wall like a knife through butter.
Unverified and Unlikely
24. These phone calls, you mean the ones that didn't work from cell phones or the morphed ones.
Factually Incorrect
25. I believe the attack planes came from Offutt AFB and the 'hijack' planes were landed and twoed into one and the passengers flown off into the wild blue yonder. Some say the turnover took place at Cleveland.
Factually Incorrect
26. The turnover at Cleveland would require FBI intervention.
Unverified and Largely Irrelevant
27. In the film 'Everybody's gotta learn sometime' on 19.30.mins - 20 mins. You will learn that the FBI agent who blocked investigation of Moussaoui in Minneapolis, was Michael Maltbie.
Irrelevant
28. He was then promoted from Minneapolis to Cleveland, small world eh.
Irrelevant
29. The blocking of an investigation at Cleveland would help the perps. Blocking investigations is something Maltbie has a proven track record in.
Factually Incorrect, Ad Hominem and Irrelevant
30. There are flight engineers on every commercial long haul flight.
Factually Incorrect
31. There are 360 degrees to pick from. Pick yours from where ever you took control of the plane to Ny. Don't forget, it's a cloudy september day.
Just a couple of degrees out and it's the cold Atlantic for you.
Argument from Incredulity
32. NY is 200 miles away and covered by clouds.
Factually Incorrect
33. How do two people in an executive jet, remotely controlling/ following the attack plane, suddenly get to thousands?
Irrational
34. These hijackers of yours, how come half of them are still alive?
They certainly didn't step out of 175 andwalk down the stairs.
Factually Incorrect
35. I don't want to be the person to inform you that you are in the company of pilots and flight instructors.
Factually Incorrect
36. With all your facts and knowledge, it won't take you long to come up with a viable scenario, that gets hijackers from logan, through the steel wall of the South tower, in a tin and plastic commercial plane, will it?
Factually Incorrect, Argument from Incredulity
37. I said they weren't commercial planes. I said they were ex-military.
Factually Incorrect
38. Not as much damage as the wall would do to the car.
Irrelevant
39. If you were David Rockefeller, would you promote some donkey to be POTUS without having something on him that could finish him in a heartbeat.
Ad Hominem and Unerified
40. Homosexuality is a bit passe these days, paedophilia would be a lot better.
Irrelevant, Slippery Slope Fallacy
41. You find some wannabe politicians, invite them to a weekend in Bohemian Grove. You keep the 'players' and sack the rest. Now you have puppets, all ready and eager to dance to your tune. Check out "Conspiracy of Silence" and "The Franklin Cover Up".
Unverified and Ad Hominem
42. Boystown, no doubt started in good faith, would soon become a magnet for paedophiles etc.
Unverified, Slippery Slope Fallacy and Irrelevant
43. Next, you get your political puppets to mix civilian in with military and you have a ready made airfield 20 mins from Boystown.
Irrelevant and Unverified
44. You can now ship paedo's in and kids out, maybe down to DC for the weekend.
Unverified, Ad Hominem and Irrelevant
45. When you need an airfield for your flights to knock down the towers, what better place than the one you know well, Offutt.
Unverified
46. Your towers have been twice condemned, asbestos etc.
Factually Incorrect
47. They will only let you handball the towers down at a cost of $15 billion.
Unverified
48. So you get a New York drug dealing, club owning property developer to take care of the NY side.
Ad Hominem and Unverified
49. You get Raytheon to put together a straitforward remote control lift off and delivery.
Factually Incorrect, Affirming the consequent.
50. You con Warren Buffet into hosting a golf tournament on the day, so that all take offs are in the dark of night.
Irrelevant
51. You have your stooges in the MSM ready with the blame game and off you go.
Ad Hominem and Unverified
52. Who else did it? I didn't do it, you didn't do it, the hot dog seller didn't do it. Who else has got the kind of pull to do it and keep the MSM on side all this time? Rockefeller and Rothschilde did it and everybody knows.
Conspiracy Paranoia, Ad Hominem, Unverified
53. Nobody can get 175 from Logan to NYC via a hijack. Try it, how can you be sure you will get through security with boxcutter in one pocket and GPS in the other?
Argument from Incredulity
54. How can you be sure Chuck Norris won't be on board and in a bad mood?
Appeal to Ridicule
55. That's before Rockefeller says OK to your plan.
Ad Hominem, Poisoning the Well, Unverified
56. Whereas I via Raytheon have just taken an empty 757 up, flown it around and landed it with no trouble.
Factually Incorrect
57. How must more sure, is my easy remote controlled lift off, then simply due east to the homing beacons. No aggro, nice and bonny, then "Good Morning Manhattan"
Argument from Incredulity, Affirming the consequent
58. You're reading the evidence, or do you require signed copies from Cheney, Rockefeller and Lucky Larry etc?
Ad Hominem, Appeal to Spite
59. How does it work? Do you type in, "South face of South tower, WTC, Manhattan, New York, by the scenic route please", or what?
Appeal to Ridicule, Argument from Incredulitiy
60. You can see the pod in the Web Fairy vid. Not only the pod, but the flash of the missile as it leaves the pod.
Factually Incorrect
61. Disinfo merchants have persuaded people on here that there were no pods have they?
Argument from Incredulity, Appeal to Emotion
62. How did a tin plane with a fibreglass nose otherwise get through corrugated steel. Garage door merchants eh.
Factually Incorrect, Argument from Incredulity
63. What's unbelievable about a logical progression of facts. I started with over twenty facts, have you got a problem with facts?
Argument ad nauseam
64. Who reported these reports, O'Reilly?
Guilt by association fallacy
65. He'd have no difficulty flying in a straight line then, would he.
Appeal to Ridicule
66. You mean like how water chops a truck in half, when you hose a truck down?
Argument from Ignorance
67. Military planes are, civilian planes are not. (faster/sturdier than insects)
Factually Incorrect and Irrelevant
68. A bullet has a pointed tip, a soft nosed fireglass fronted plane doesn't.
Factually Incorrect and Irrelevant
In WW2, the Japs made the mistake of sending Kamikaze planes against the wooden decks of US carriers. They forgot to put a pointy bit on the front. The Kamkaze planes that did hit, spread themselves out across the deck.
You need a pointy bit on the front. No pointy bit = no entry.
Factually Incorrect, Historically Incorrect
69. Because of the Golf tournament, Offutt AFB was closed from dawn onwards to all air traffic, except executive jets belonging to the celebrities attending the golf tournament.
Irrelevant and Unverified
70. That meant that all traffic from Offutt for Northern Vigilance and Vigilant Warrior had to leave before dawn. Any commander of an AFB, would not agree to have a golf tournament on that day, he would put it off for another day.
Unverified and Irrelevant
71. If for no better reason, than that he and his officers and wives could party and mingle with all these celebrities.
Appeal to ??
72. Also, any officer who ordered all night time take offs, for no good reason, would find himself on the carpet. The commander of Offutt AFB must have been ordered by, may his black heart burst as I write, Cheney.
Unverified
73. That's why Bush put Cheney in charge, in writing. Are you starting to wake up a bit?
Unverified, Appeal to Spite, Poisoning the Well, Argument from conviction
74. The Kamikazes flew zero's. Zero's had engines in the nose. All the planes the Kamikazes used, had engines in the nose. I'm not making anything up, there must be film of Kamikaze attacks on wooden decked carriers in WW2. Check it out, they couldn't get through wood.
Factually Incorrect
75. Fibreglass can't get through steel, no matter how fast it's going.
Factually Incorrect
76. So they carried the GPS on board. Already programmed for NY. How can you be sure they'd get through the metal detector. How's about a quick backheel or two, over the top of the metal detector. First the GPS, then the boxcutter?
Argument from Incredulity, Appeal to Ridicule, Factually Incorrect
77. No pods for you then eh? Must be the garage door bit then.
Because there's no way a fibreglass nosed plane, busted through corrugated steel, along with it's tin wings.
Factually Incorrect, Argument from Incredulity, Appeal to Ridicule
78. You misunderstand me. Someone else said water cuts steel, I was being facetious. You'll find the meaning of facetious in a decent dictionary. I learnt the meaning of the word watching Jerry Springer (there I go again, being facetious).
Shifting Goalposts, Appeal to Ridicule
79. Show me a jap kamikaze that got through a carrier deck (they were all made of wood) and I'll agree that half the hijackers are not still alive.
Faustian Wager
80. That would depend on how bright the conspirators were. In the case of 9/11, just fractionally brighter than you.
Ad Hominem
81. Not alive now. Alive after 9/11. Died between then and now.
Factually Incorrect
82. Get 175 from Logan to the south tower via a hijack scenario. You can't do it. You can't do it at all. Someone did do it, 9/11 did happen. Someone decided on a plan of action.
Argument from Incredulity, Begging the Question
83. I have on the table a perfectly viable and proven technique. A straightforward lift off and delivery due east.
Unverified
84. Rockefeller only has the one plan on his table, mine. If you can't put a plan together, then he can only choose mine.
False Dilemma, Guilt by Association, Ad Hoc, Poisoning the Well
85. I'll help you, you have four teams of lightweight arabs, each team has to get passed security, then get on board without a boxcutter or GPS being spotted. Then at an appointed time, each team leaps into action. Now give me a bit of detail and let's see which plan Rockefeller will choose.
False Dilemma, Argument from Incredulity
86. Mensa 174 = top 2%. How do you like them potatoes, boyo.
Appeal to Authority
87. Consulting mental health professionals is something you mugs have been fooled into doing. Psychologists are second only to psychiatrists in the suicide ratings for professionals. When I want advice from somebody who might top themself at any moment, I'll let you know.
Unconfirmed, Ad Hominem
88. My pleasure. A few bits for starters. Govt policy is, because there's a war on, that all hardwear is obsolete after two years. Irrespective of usage. So you can pick a (military) 757 up for peanuts.
Factually Incorrect, Irrelevant
89. Why couldn't the 175 passengers and crew been herded on to a remote controlled plane and flown off to somewhere like The Bering Sea?
Irrelevant
90. Your hijack scenario?
Shifting the Burden
91. The pilot could have the plane on the groung in two minutes.
Factually Incorrect
92. Even an aenemic stewardess wouldn't bleed to death from a razor slash in that time span = end of hijack = would Rockefeller go with your plan or mine?
Factually Incorrect
93. A plane had to hit the south tower, otherwise all the bombing prep would
stand to get discovered etc.
Irrelevant
94. My plan can be guaranteed to work, your's can't = my plan is adopted.
The hijack boloney was all the cover up and nothing else.
False Dilemma, Factually Incorrect and Unverified
95. What's on fire, concrete and steel?
Factually Incorrect
96. Pine needles penetrate steel do they?
Fibreglass or wood travelling at 400mph will penetrate steel.
There are none as numb as those that wanna be.
You certainly fit that bill.
Factually Incorrect, Appeal to Ridicule
97. The Council on Foreign Relations, is funded by foreigners.
I understand now. Thanks for that.
Association Fallacy
98. Because Cheney said they were real.
Association Fallacy
99. To overcome the MSM's obvious support for mass murder and to let neocons know that the tide is turning.
Association Fallacy, Poisoning the Well
100. No, because Cheney is a lying SOB, who couldn't tell the truth, to stop his heart from bursting.
Association Fallacy, Ad Hominem
101. You are confusing Blofelt with Cheney. Blofelt is real, Cheney is a figment of Rockefeller's imagination.
This won't do, you must not confuse facts with conjecture.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean
102. Why do you say Rumsfeld has nothing to do with it? He not only predicted the hit that morning, but also predicted the hit on the Pentagon moments before that happened as well. Will you take my word for that, or do I have to dig out the newspaper references?
Factually Incorrect
103. 1999, Norad starts exercises in which hijacked planes are crashed into WTC and the Pentagon (USA Today).
The list is factually incorrect, irrelevant and argument ad nauseum
104. D - 2hrs, Odigo employees in Israel receive warnings of attacks. (Common knowledge).
Factually Incorrect, Conspiracy Paranoia, Guilt By Association
105. D - two minutes, Rumsfelt predicts terrorist attack in US (Fayetteville Observer).
Factually Incorrect and Irrelevant
106. Realise that he knew that thousands of innocent civilians were, at that precise moment in time, innocently going about their daily jobs inside a primed and ready to explode giant bomb. All he can think about is his own persona.
Rumsfelt later predicts the Pentagon attack minutes before it happened (Daily Telegraph).
Factually Incorrect, Ad Hominem, Guilt By Association, etc
107. The White House staff were given Cipro, one month prior to the anthrax attack that killed some and just missed senator Leahy. (Washington Post).
Factually Incorrect and Unrelated
108. It was an ex military bad boy, with a pod and a missile and a homing device, to lock onto the beacon, on the computer floor.
Unsupported
109. See how everything fits, when you read things slowly.
Appeal to Ridicule
110. A miltary 757/767 is made out of different materials thana civilian 757/767.
Factually Incorrect and Irrelevant
111. When you grow up and ditch the dickie bow, somebody will tell you the meaning of words such as 'secret' and 'classified'. You see, it's not always a clever thing to broadcast what your armour is. Some nasty person might work out a way to get through it. There be a few more nasties like that to learn, especially when you learn
Appeal to Ridicule, Claim of Special Knowledge
112. If so, can you tell me how come Russia and Japan, never declared war on each other?
Historically Incorrect
113-120 or so (Discussion of Transitive Verbs and Historical Dates)
1??? Just what evidence do you have to explain away the Norad stand down, the Mineta testimony, the nonsense of a plane hitting the Pentagon or a plane crash at Shanksville. The controlled demolition of WTC's 1,2 and 7.
It wouldn't be a few copies of Popular Mechanics, the Nist report and the Ommission Commission report by any chance, would it?
Argument from Incredulity

OK, I'm done. That's 1000 posts worth of claims in this thread, with not a single solitary ounce of support.
 
MortFurd said:
In 2001, a GPS receiver could be made as small as a one inch square. I was doing development work on a device that used the SiRF Star GPS receiver. (Embedded location of two-way radios.)

Complete GPS receivers for personal use were available in hand-held units. Hell, in ~1998 there were portable (walkie talkie type) aviation two-way radios that included maps of all US airports. GPS receiver the size of a brick my a$$.

BTW:
Would you folks PLEASE refer to GPS receivers as such? A GPS is a Global Positioning System. That's all the satellites and ground stations needed to provide the signals that the GPS RECEIVERS detect and use to calculate positions. Yes, it is pedantic, but it grates my nerves the same way PIN number does (Personal Identification Number number. Gaaaaah!!.)
Click to expand...
These 'chips' that they want to start sticking in people. I've heard they can make such 'chips' as small as a speck of dust. Have you any info on that?
 
Tirdun said:
Here are your assembled claims. Thanks to many who pointed out fallacies.

1. Raytheon, in Aug 2001, flew a passenger jet (...)
Inconsequential
2. Raytheon deal in small executive jets
Factually Incorrect
3. There is a very good reason for Raytheon not to interest themselves in flying passenger planes by remote control
Largely Incorrect and Inconsequential
4. The law requires that the passengers on any flight, have the flight crew present themselves to the passengers
Unverified and Inconsequential
5. No flight crew by the door = no flight.
Unverified and Inconsequential
6. Raytheon could have no legitimate reason, for flying a large passenger plane by remote control.
Factually Incorrect
7. Offutt AFB, is a joint civilian/military installation.
Inconsequential
8. Boeing and Raytheon were there.
Irrelevant
9. Boeing has been the subject of RICO law suits for over a decade.
Irrelevant
10. The military prefer daylight take offs.
Irrelevant
11. Any commander of an Air Force Base who closed his airport for ‘civilian’ reasons during massive war games, would face disciplinary action.
Unverified and Inconsequential
12.For the first time in history, a civilian politician was placed in direct command of Norad and other parts of the USAF.
Unverified and Irrelevant
13. In order to get a night-time take off from a military airfield, some compelling reason must be given.
Unverified and Irrelevant
14. Private civilian executive jets began arriving at dawn on 9/11, because of a celebrity golf tournament that day.
Inconsequential
15. Warren Buffet was persuaded out of retirement to host one last celebrity golf tournament.
Highly Irrelevant
16.Neocons are involved in paedophilia.
Ad Hominem and Irrelevant
17. Offut AFB is twenty minutes away from Boystown, Omaha.
Irrelevant
18. Boystown is steeped in allegations of paedophilia.
Unverified, Ad Hominem and Irrelevant
19. Things occurred (criminal convictions) in the Twin Towers apartment block
Irrelevant and Unverified
20.So many planes or non-planes were in the sky that morning, that air traffic controllers didn’t know a real plane from a blip on their screen.
Unverified
21. Air traffic controllers deal only with planes that are about to land in their area.
Unverified
22. All take offs from Offutt, for both Northern Vigilance, Vigilant warrior and any other reason, would have to be during the night of 9/10 – 9/11.
Unverified and Irrelevant
23. It was a hard nosed ex-military job that had a rocket to help the nose in and hard wings to slice into the wall like a knife through butter.
Unverified and Unlikely
24. These phone calls, you mean the ones that didn't work from cell phones or the morphed ones.
Factually Incorrect
25. I believe the attack planes came from Offutt AFB and the 'hijack' planes were landed and twoed into one and the passengers flown off into the wild blue yonder. Some say the turnover took place at Cleveland.
Factually Incorrect
26. The turnover at Cleveland would require FBI intervention.
Unverified and Largely Irrelevant
27. In the film 'Everybody's gotta learn sometime' on 19.30.mins - 20 mins. You will learn that the FBI agent who blocked investigation of Moussaoui in Minneapolis, was Michael Maltbie.
Irrelevant
28. He was then promoted from Minneapolis to Cleveland, small world eh.
Irrelevant
29. The blocking of an investigation at Cleveland would help the perps. Blocking investigations is something Maltbie has a proven track record in.
Factually Incorrect, Ad Hominem and Irrelevant
30. There are flight engineers on every commercial long haul flight.
Factually Incorrect
31. There are 360 degrees to pick from. Pick yours from where ever you took control of the plane to Ny. Don't forget, it's a cloudy september day.
Just a couple of degrees out and it's the cold Atlantic for you.
Argument from Incredulity
32. NY is 200 miles away and covered by clouds.
Factually Incorrect
33. How do two people in an executive jet, remotely controlling/ following the attack plane, suddenly get to thousands?
Irrational
34. These hijackers of yours, how come half of them are still alive?
They certainly didn't step out of 175 andwalk down the stairs.
Factually Incorrect
35. I don't want to be the person to inform you that you are in the company of pilots and flight instructors.
Factually Incorrect
36. With all your facts and knowledge, it won't take you long to come up with a viable scenario, that gets hijackers from logan, through the steel wall of the South tower, in a tin and plastic commercial plane, will it?
Factually Incorrect, Argument from Incredulity
37. I said they weren't commercial planes. I said they were ex-military.
Factually Incorrect
38. Not as much damage as the wall would do to the car.
Irrelevant
39. If you were David Rockefeller, would you promote some donkey to be POTUS without having something on him that could finish him in a heartbeat.
Ad Hominem and Unerified
40. Homosexuality is a bit passe these days, paedophilia would be a lot better.
Irrelevant, Slippery Slope Fallacy
41. You find some wannabe politicians, invite them to a weekend in Bohemian Grove. You keep the 'players' and sack the rest. Now you have puppets, all ready and eager to dance to your tune. Check out "Conspiracy of Silence" and "The Franklin Cover Up".
Unverified and Ad Hominem
42. Boystown, no doubt started in good faith, would soon become a magnet for paedophiles etc.
Unverified, Slippery Slope Fallacy and Irrelevant
43. Next, you get your political puppets to mix civilian in with military and you have a ready made airfield 20 mins from Boystown.
Irrelevant and Unverified
44. You can now ship paedo's in and kids out, maybe down to DC for the weekend.
Unverified, Ad Hominem and Irrelevant
45. When you need an airfield for your flights to knock down the towers, what better place than the one you know well, Offutt.
Unverified
46. Your towers have been twice condemned, asbestos etc.
Factually Incorrect
47. They will only let you handball the towers down at a cost of $15 billion.
Unverified
48. So you get a New York drug dealing, club owning property developer to take care of the NY side.
Ad Hominem and Unverified
49. You get Raytheon to put together a straitforward remote control lift off and delivery.
Factually Incorrect, Affirming the consequent.
50. You con Warren Buffet into hosting a golf tournament on the day, so that all take offs are in the dark of night.
Irrelevant
51. You have your stooges in the MSM ready with the blame game and off you go.
Ad Hominem and Unverified
52. Who else did it? I didn't do it, you didn't do it, the hot dog seller didn't do it. Who else has got the kind of pull to do it and keep the MSM on side all this time? Rockefeller and Rothschilde did it and everybody knows.
Conspiracy Paranoia, Ad Hominem, Unverified
53. Nobody can get 175 from Logan to NYC via a hijack. Try it, how can you be sure you will get through security with boxcutter in one pocket and GPS in the other?
Argument from Incredulity
54. How can you be sure Chuck Norris won't be on board and in a bad mood?
Appeal to Ridicule
55. That's before Rockefeller says OK to your plan.
Ad Hominem, Poisoning the Well, Unverified
56. Whereas I via Raytheon have just taken an empty 757 up, flown it around and landed it with no trouble.
Factually Incorrect
57. How must more sure, is my easy remote controlled lift off, then simply due east to the homing beacons. No aggro, nice and bonny, then "Good Morning Manhattan"
Argument from Incredulity, Affirming the consequent
58. You're reading the evidence, or do you require signed copies from Cheney, Rockefeller and Lucky Larry etc?
Ad Hominem, Appeal to Spite
59. How does it work? Do you type in, "South face of South tower, WTC, Manhattan, New York, by the scenic route please", or what?
Appeal to Ridicule, Argument from Incredulitiy
60. You can see the pod in the Web Fairy vid. Not only the pod, but the flash of the missile as it leaves the pod.
Factually Incorrect
61. Disinfo merchants have persuaded people on here that there were no pods have they?
Argument from Incredulity, Appeal to Emotion
62. How did a tin plane with a fibreglass nose otherwise get through corrugated steel. Garage door merchants eh.
Factually Incorrect, Argument from Incredulity
63. What's unbelievable about a logical progression of facts. I started with over twenty facts, have you got a problem with facts?
Argument ad nauseam
64. Who reported these reports, O'Reilly?
Guilt by association fallacy
65. He'd have no difficulty flying in a straight line then, would he.
Appeal to Ridicule
66. You mean like how water chops a truck in half, when you hose a truck down?
Argument from Ignorance
67. Military planes are, civilian planes are not. (faster/sturdier than insects)
Factually Incorrect and Irrelevant
68. A bullet has a pointed tip, a soft nosed fireglass fronted plane doesn't.
Factually Incorrect and Irrelevant
In WW2, the Japs made the mistake of sending Kamikaze planes against the wooden decks of US carriers. They forgot to put a pointy bit on the front. The Kamkaze planes that did hit, spread themselves out across the deck.
You need a pointy bit on the front. No pointy bit = no entry.
Factually Incorrect, Historically Incorrect
69. Because of the Golf tournament, Offutt AFB was closed from dawn onwards to all air traffic, except executive jets belonging to the celebrities attending the golf tournament.
Irrelevant and Unverified
70. That meant that all traffic from Offutt for Northern Vigilance and Vigilant Warrior had to leave before dawn. Any commander of an AFB, would not agree to have a golf tournament on that day, he would put it off for another day.
Unverified and Irrelevant
71. If for no better reason, than that he and his officers and wives could party and mingle with all these celebrities.
Appeal to ??
72. Also, any officer who ordered all night time take offs, for no good reason, would find himself on the carpet. The commander of Offutt AFB must have been ordered by, may his black heart burst as I write, Cheney.
Unverified
73. That's why Bush put Cheney in charge, in writing. Are you starting to wake up a bit?
Unverified, Appeal to Spite, Poisoning the Well, Argument from conviction
74. The Kamikazes flew zero's. Zero's had engines in the nose. All the planes the Kamikazes used, had engines in the nose. I'm not making anything up, there must be film of Kamikaze attacks on wooden decked carriers in WW2. Check it out, they couldn't get through wood.
Factually Incorrect
75. Fibreglass can't get through steel, no matter how fast it's going.
Factually Incorrect
76. So they carried the GPS on board. Already programmed for NY. How can you be sure they'd get through the metal detector. How's about a quick backheel or two, over the top of the metal detector. First the GPS, then the boxcutter?
Argument from Incredulity, Appeal to Ridicule, Factually Incorrect
77. No pods for you then eh? Must be the garage door bit then.
Because there's no way a fibreglass nosed plane, busted through corrugated steel, along with it's tin wings.
Factually Incorrect, Argument from Incredulity, Appeal to Ridicule
78. You misunderstand me. Someone else said water cuts steel, I was being facetious. You'll find the meaning of facetious in a decent dictionary. I learnt the meaning of the word watching Jerry Springer (there I go again, being facetious).
Shifting Goalposts, Appeal to Ridicule
79. Show me a jap kamikaze that got through a carrier deck (they were all made of wood) and I'll agree that half the hijackers are not still alive.
Faustian Wager
80. That would depend on how bright the conspirators were. In the case of 9/11, just fractionally brighter than you.
Ad Hominem
81. Not alive now. Alive after 9/11. Died between then and now.
Factually Incorrect
82. Get 175 from Logan to the south tower via a hijack scenario. You can't do it. You can't do it at all. Someone did do it, 9/11 did happen. Someone decided on a plan of action.
Argument from Incredulity, Begging the Question
83. I have on the table a perfectly viable and proven technique. A straightforward lift off and delivery due east.
Unverified
84. Rockefeller only has the one plan on his table, mine. If you can't put a plan together, then he can only choose mine.
False Dilemma, Guilt by Association, Ad Hoc, Poisoning the Well
85. I'll help you, you have four teams of lightweight arabs, each team has to get passed security, then get on board without a boxcutter or GPS being spotted. Then at an appointed time, each team leaps into action. Now give me a bit of detail and let's see which plan Rockefeller will choose.
False Dilemma, Argument from Incredulity
86. Mensa 174 = top 2%. How do you like them potatoes, boyo.
Appeal to Authority
87. Consulting mental health professionals is something you mugs have been fooled into doing. Psychologists are second only to psychiatrists in the suicide ratings for professionals. When I want advice from somebody who might top themself at any moment, I'll let you know.
Unconfirmed, Ad Hominem
88. My pleasure. A few bits for starters. Govt policy is, because there's a war on, that all hardwear is obsolete after two years. Irrespective of usage. So you can pick a (military) 757 up for peanuts.
Factually Incorrect, Irrelevant
89. Why couldn't the 175 passengers and crew been herded on to a remote controlled plane and flown off to somewhere like The Bering Sea?
Irrelevant
90. Your hijack scenario?
Shifting the Burden
91. The pilot could have the plane on the groung in two minutes.
Factually Incorrect
92. Even an aenemic stewardess wouldn't bleed to death from a razor slash in that time span = end of hijack = would Rockefeller go with your plan or mine?
Factually Incorrect
93. A plane had to hit the south tower, otherwise all the bombing prep would
stand to get discovered etc.
Irrelevant
94. My plan can be guaranteed to work, your's can't = my plan is adopted.
The hijack boloney was all the cover up and nothing else.
False Dilemma, Factually Incorrect and Unverified
95. What's on fire, concrete and steel?
Factually Incorrect
96. Pine needles penetrate steel do they?
Fibreglass or wood travelling at 400mph will penetrate steel.
There are none as numb as those that wanna be.
You certainly fit that bill.
Factually Incorrect, Appeal to Ridicule
97. The Council on Foreign Relations, is funded by foreigners.
I understand now. Thanks for that.
Association Fallacy
98. Because Cheney said they were real.
Association Fallacy
99. To overcome the MSM's obvious support for mass murder and to let neocons know that the tide is turning.
Association Fallacy, Poisoning the Well
100. No, because Cheney is a lying SOB, who couldn't tell the truth, to stop his heart from bursting.
Association Fallacy, Ad Hominem
101. You are confusing Blofelt with Cheney. Blofelt is real, Cheney is a figment of Rockefeller's imagination.
This won't do, you must not confuse facts with conjecture.
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean
102. Why do you say Rumsfeld has nothing to do with it? He not only predicted the hit that morning, but also predicted the hit on the Pentagon moments before that happened as well. Will you take my word for that, or do I have to dig out the newspaper references?
Factually Incorrect
103. 1999, Norad starts exercises in which hijacked planes are crashed into WTC and the Pentagon (USA Today).
The list is factually incorrect, irrelevant and argument ad nauseum
104. D - 2hrs, Odigo employees in Israel receive warnings of attacks. (Common knowledge).
Factually Incorrect, Conspiracy Paranoia, Guilt By Association
105. D - two minutes, Rumsfelt predicts terrorist attack in US (Fayetteville Observer).
Factually Incorrect and Irrelevant
106. Realise that he knew that thousands of innocent civilians were, at that precise moment in time, innocently going about their daily jobs inside a primed and ready to explode giant bomb. All he can think about is his own persona.
Rumsfelt later predicts the Pentagon attack minutes before it happened (Daily Telegraph).
Factually Incorrect, Ad Hominem, Guilt By Association, etc
107. The White House staff were given Cipro, one month prior to the anthrax attack that killed some and just missed senator Leahy. (Washington Post).
Factually Incorrect and Unrelated
108. It was an ex military bad boy, with a pod and a missile and a homing device, to lock onto the beacon, on the computer floor.
Unsupported
109. See how everything fits, when you read things slowly.
Appeal to Ridicule
110. A miltary 757/767 is made out of different materials thana civilian 757/767.
Factually Incorrect and Irrelevant
111. When you grow up and ditch the dickie bow, somebody will tell you the meaning of words such as 'secret' and 'classified'. You see, it's not always a clever thing to broadcast what your armour is. Some nasty person might work out a way to get through it. There be a few more nasties like that to learn, especially when you learn
Appeal to Ridicule, Claim of Special Knowledge
112. If so, can you tell me how come Russia and Japan, never declared war on each other?
Historically Incorrect
113-120 or so (Discussion of Transitive Verbs and Historical Dates)
1??? Just what evidence do you have to explain away the Norad stand down, the Mineta testimony, the nonsense of a plane hitting the Pentagon or a plane crash at Shanksville. The controlled demolition of WTC's 1,2 and 7.
It wouldn't be a few copies of Popular Mechanics, the Nist report and the Ommission Commission report by any chance, would it?
Argument from Incredulity

OK, I'm done. That's 1000 posts worth of claims in this thread, with not a single solitary ounce of support.
Click to expand...

You've missed one out,
121, Over three thousand innocent office workers allowed to go work inside a ready to explode giant bomb, then vapourised.
Irrelevant.
 
malcolm kirkman said:
Once or twice, two swallows don't make a summer. As a general rule no pointed tip = no entry.
Click to expand...
Your contention was that they never penetrated the wooden decks. This has been proven to be in error.

Incidentally, if you visit WWII-themed sites, you can find various debates about the way U.S. and U.K. aircraft carriers were constructed.

British carriers used an armoured flight deck while USN ships used a wooden deck. Proponents for the British method point out that the armoured flight deck provides much greater protection for the ship than the wooden flight deck. USN proponents point out that, while the armoured flight deck certainly afforded better protection, the twisted and bent steel of an armoured flight deck caused by a bomb or kamikaze strike was not repairable at sea. Thus, the armoured flight deck ship would be forced back to port for repairs.

The USN carrier, on the other hand, could repair its flight deck at sea. The broken and damaged timbers were cut away, new timbers laid in place, and the ship could be back conducting flight operations within a few hours. The tradeoff was, of course, that the wooden flight deck afforded less protection to the ship and thus the greater chance of a critical hit.

malcolm kirkman said:
I notice D Day is no longer on your agenda.
Click to expand...
Why should it be? I pointed out your error in categorizing the secrecy around D-Day as trying to fool the Germans into thinking there would be no cross-channel invasion. In fact the Allies were only trying to deceive the Germans as to the location of the invasion. What more is needed?
 
malcolm kirkman said:
You've missed one out,
121, Over three thousand innocent office workers allowed to go work inside a ready to explode giant bomb, then vapourised.
Irrelevant.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Amazingly, you got one right! The baseless fantasy about a bomb going off is indeed irrelevant.

You still haven't acknowledged your demonstrated error regarding the nonexistent "bad boys."

You still haven't shown any errors in the paper written by the avionics tech Apathoid.
 
I honestly don't think I have ever seen anyone on this forum be so consistently wrong about so many things.

I mean, even people like ChristopherA got most of the facts about 9/11 correct. Even Killtown has a better track record. The errors on display here are just phenomenal.

-Gumboot
 
gumboot said:
Well, to begin with it takes longer than 30s to get a jet fighter engine up to temperature and do all of the final checks to ensure the aircraft is ready for flight. It also takes longer than 30s to taxi a fighter from the flight line to the threshold.

On 9/11 NORAD alert fighters were expected to be airbourne within 15 minutes of a scramble order being issued.

Of course all of this is academic. NORAD had no fighters at Andrews AFB. Andrews AFB was not an alert site.

Only one fighter squadron was stationed at Andrews AFB; the 121st Fighter Squadron. Prior to 9/11 they did not have any NORAD duties.

If the roof of the Pentagon is indeed the safest place to be during a war, perhaps you can explain the reason behind Cheyenne Mountain, the E-4B Nightwatch, E-6 Mercury, and E-8 Joint STARS.

-Gumboot
Click to expand...
A fighter can get from wheels leaving the tarmac at Andrews AFB, to over the Pentagon in about ten seconds.
 
Redtail said:
malcolm kirkman said:
I am not familiar with that word.
Indubitably \In*du"bi*ta*bly\, adv.
Undoubtedly; unquestionably; in a manner to remove all doubt.

Oracles indubitably clear and infallibly certain.
--Barrow.
Click to expand...
Indupitably became indubitably because some people have difficulty with correct pronounciation. The same thing happened when pronounciation became pronunciation and aluminium became aluminum. Just lazy really.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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