[Moderated]175 did NOT hit the South tower.

[pomeroo]

I have read the paper and will be glad to go through it with you. The first point he makes is that a 757 has a feature that disallows pilot error, I quote,
"They are intelligent planes, and have software limits pre set so that pilot error cannot cause passenger injury... No matter what the pilot wants, he cannot override this feature".
Flight 77 was a 757, thus it could not have conducted the manouevres the govt said it did.
Foisted on your own petard, don't you think?

The phrase is "hoist on one's petard," genius. You should know: your petards keep blowing up in your face.

Either you have not read the paper, or your inability to comprehend printed material is pathological. The paper demonstrates that 767s and 757s are NOT fly-by-wire planes. Rather than waste everyone's time trying to bluff your way through a subject you know absolutely nothing about, why not ask Apathoid to explain the parts of his paper you can't comprehend?

Your falsehoods regarding armored airliners have been exposed, but you haven't acknowledged your error.

 

[gumboot]

They were more than 'smart and creative'. I'm sure I'm leaving some things out here, but here is a list that puts them beyond the realms of fantasy.
1. They changed the engines of 175 in flight.

You've offered nothing other than your own unsupported assertion that the engine on the street in NYC is different to that used to power a 767. An aircraft avionics technician has posted in direct contradiction of your claim. you lose.

2. They prepped WTC 1,2, and 7 with explosives.

No explosive detonated in any of the above buildings on 9/11.

3. They got Norad to fly every which way but the right way.

Two F-15s from Otis ANGB were scrambled for Manhattan at 0846EDT and arrived at about 0905EDT.

Two F-16s from Langley AFB were scrambled for Washington DC at 0922EDT and arrived at about 1000EDT.

4. They overflew the Pentagon by more than 30 ft, yet still managed to crash through a downstairs window.

Er... no. AA77 did not overfly the Pentagon. It hit it.

5. It is about 30 ft from the captain's cap to the bottom of underslung engines. Yet they put the captain's cap through a downstairs window, without leaving the engines in the lawn. In fact, without marking the lawn at all.

Um... no... the roof of a Boeing 757 is only 20ft above the ground in the gear-down position, and that's with 2ft of clearance for the engines. Thus from bottom of the engines to top of the fuselage is only 18ft. From bottom of the engines to top of the cockpit window is only about 13ft - less than half your 30ft figures. Once again you have no idea what you're talking about. Isn't this getting embarrassing?

For full technical specs on the Boeing 757 see here.

Clearances for the 200 series can be seen on page 15.

6. They crashed a plane at Shanksville and left just about enough wreckage, to fill up the back of a pick up truck.

They recovered over 90% of the aircraft.

7. They allowed cell phones to work above 4,000 ft.

They allowed them to work? They just work. It's a fact.

8. They got 4 flight crews to give up their planes without one of them sending out a mayday.

False.

1328:16 - UAL93 - *** (mayday) *** (hey get out of here) ***.
1328:48 - UAL93 - *** (get out of here) *** (get out of here).
Source

9. Mohammad Atta was so clever he had a passport that survived the fireball and fluttered down to the street in perfect condition. Passing on its way, the over 1,000 vapourised bodies that are still unaccounted for.

Mohammed Atta's passport was recovered before either tower had collapsed, in the street. Was it in perfect condition? No. Was its discovery and intentional act perpetrated by "clever" Mohammed Atta? No.

10. They flew through two rings of steel that protect DC and persuaded Cheney to ensure the defences stayed down. Either that, or they magically worked out whatever codes were in force to protect DC.
Finally UBL managed to do all this from his laptop, whilst he was having an operation in an american hospital in the middle east.
That's what you call a laptop.
ps,
The security forces are very good at finding things like Atta's passport, check this list out,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/september11/story/0,11209,669961,00.html
They also have a history of staging hijacks. Entebbe comes to mind.

Codes in force to protect DC? My, what an imagination you have. There was no air protection over Washington DC, let alone "two rings of steel", whatever that is supposed to mean.

Osama Bin Laden has not ever been admitted to hospital for his kidneys. He has categorically denied that story on numerous occasions.

-Gumboot

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

A bullet has a pointed tip remember? Stilletto heels, wooden dance floors and wooden decks, kamikazes? I appreciate that it is quite some posts ago.

As do 767's: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_exterior_er.html

 

[apathoid]

I have read the paper and will be glad to go through it with you. The first point he makes is that a 757 has a feature that disallows pilot error, I quote,
"They are intelligent planes, and have software limits pre set so that pilot error cannot cause passenger injury... No matter what the pilot wants, he cannot override this feature".
Flight 77 was a 757, thus it could not have conducted the manouevres the govt said it did.
Foisted on your own petard, don't you think?

First, I didn't author that page, much less write the tripe you quoted above. BTW, said tripe is the claim that 911myths is addressing, not the rebuttal. But you probably already knew that, didn't you?

 

[apathoid]

Certainly, Raytheon flew around a passenger jet by remote control, as I said in my first post.

I figured you'd say that, and of course, you're absolutely wrong. If that was the definition of remote control - every airliner built since the 70's flies under remote control every single day.....

If you wish anything more technical, allow me to refer you to Pilots for 9/11 truth.

That's funny!

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Thank you for that, will you now comment on this,
extension in mm = constant
force in Newtons

As I said before, I will not move on to another talking point until the visual record has been addressed.

Where and when did these killers switch the engines around, from JT9D - 7R4D's to CFM 56's and why has the government failed to investigate the matter?

You have not shown conclusive proof of this assertion.

Once or twice, two swallows don't make a summer. As a general rule no pointed tip = no entry.
I notice D Day is no longer on your agenda.

Wrong again. Extreme case in point, elephant/water-buffalo gun ammunition is round-nose:
http://www.african-hunter.com/guns_of_the_pioneers.htm
http://www.african-hunter.com/lead_bullets_in_a__470_nitro.htm
http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBoreCompendium/
http://www.accuratereloading.com/700ne.html
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mickay/nitro.htm

 

[SOMERLED]

The pilots, maybe ? You know, the ones that may need it while flying the plane ?



No, it's a website with just a few, one of which is unemployed. Gee, I wonder why.



How do you know the exact location ?



Answer my points, Malcolm. ARE you aware that a hand CAN break wood AND that wood ca break a hand ? Yes or no, please.

You AGAIN ignored all other points in my post. Are you doing this deliberatly ? Are those points so difficult to answer ?



I'm assuming that you are doing everything in your power to avoid having to answer the question proper: Was the ACTUAL invasion a hoax ? Yes or No ? And if it wasn't, how do you explain that, since it wasn't 100% to succeed ?



How' bout this one ?

1. "Maybe" isn't good enough with so much at stake.
2. It is beneath my dignity to reply to this point.
3. Intelligent deduction.
4. That would depend upon the circumstances.
5. The only way we could have been thrown back into the sea was if panzers came down from the Pas de Calaise or came up from Italy in time. Had either happened we would have bombed the southern panzers into extinction before they could get back south and invaded the south of France.
Alternatively Patten would have hit the Pas de Calaise, had the panzers there gone south.
The invasion landing craft were steered by Royal Marine Commandos, in order to ensure accuracy. In order to know where those commandos were in the days following D Day, you need to have family connections, as I do.
Patten's 'invisible' army, together with it's insignia etc, may not have been so invisible after all.
It's knowing stuff like that, that has made seeing through 9/11 so easy for me. What the government does and what it tells Joe Public may occasionally coincide. When that does happen, chances are, it's more by accident than design.

 

[CurtC]

I could teach a 10 year old kid how to fly from a plane taking off at Boston...

Where and when did these killers switch the engines around, from JT9D - 7R4D's to CFM 56's

Beachnut explains how easy it would be to navigate to NYC, and your response is that the engines were wrong. You do realize that this is a passive concession by you that you no longer stand by your statement that the hijackers could not have made it to NYC.

Now that that's clear, we can move on. Please don't bring up the navigation question again.

Your point about remotely piloted planes, I admit, will stand. The Raytheon tests show that it is theoretically possible to fit a commercial plane with automated navigation systems. A system like this would not be able to override the control inputs of a pilot on board, but I think you're proposing empty planes anyway. Also, a system like this would require hundreds of engineering people to design, test, and install (the described Raytheon system wouldn't do this, it's only an automated landing system), so that is an issue for you, but I acknowledge that if a large, well-funded team really wanted to do that, it would be possible.

 

[JimBenArm]

Malcolm:
Have the words "Wow, I was wrong about that!" ever left your lips?
Just curious.

 

[SOMERLED]

Post #1368 contains NOTHING related to this issue. It's becoming increasingly clear that you have no interest in answering any questions whatsoever, and as such, conversating with you is an utter waste of time. Oh well - I had nothing better to do...

Would you kindly make a point.

 

[gumboot]

The invasion landing craft were steered by Royal Marine Commandos, in order to ensure accuracy. In order to know where those commandos were in the days following D Day, you need to have family connections, as I do.
Patten's 'invisible' army, together with it's insignia etc, may not have been so invisible after all.

Commandos are infantry, not sailors. They don't steer landing craft. What a ridiculous notion. And what an appalling waste of resources such a notion would be.

Why not have the SAS refuelling transport aircraft...

As for "Patten's invisible army" (and it's Patton, by the way), the entire point of Operation Fortitude was to make the dummy invasion forces highly visible.

An "invisible" decoy force would defeat the entire point of having a decoy.

-Gumboot

 

[SOMERLED]

You've offered nothing other than your own unsupported assertion that the engine on the street in NYC is different to that used to power a 767. An aircraft avionics technician has posted in direct contradiction of your claim. you lose.






No explosive detonated in any of the above buildings on 9/11.





Two F-15s from Otis ANGB were scrambled for Manhattan at 0846EDT and arrived at about 0905EDT.

Two F-16s from Langley AFB were scrambled for Washington DC at 0922EDT and arrived at about 1000EDT.





Er... no. AA77 did not overfly the Pentagon. It hit it.





Um... no... the roof of a Boeing 757 is only 20ft above the ground in the gear-down position, and that's with 2ft of clearance for the engines. Thus from bottom of the engines to top of the fuselage is only 18ft. From bottom of the engines to top of the cockpit window is only about 13ft - less than half your 30ft figures. Once again you have no idea what you're talking about. Isn't this getting embarrassing?

For full technical specs on the Boeing 757 see here.

Clearances for the 200 series can be seen on page 15.






They recovered over 90% of the aircraft.






They allowed them to work? They just work. It's a fact.





False.








Mohammed Atta's passport was recovered before either tower had collapsed, in the street. Was it in perfect condition? No. Was its discovery and intentional act perpetrated by "clever" Mohammed Atta? No.






Codes in force to protect DC? My, what an imagination you have. There was no air protection over Washington DC, let alone "two rings of steel", whatever that is supposed to mean.

Osama Bin Laden has not ever been admitted to hospital for his kidneys. He has categorically denied that story on numerous occasions.

-Gumboot

A jet could have got from Andrews to the Pentagon, tarmac to Pentagon in under 30 seconds. Try doing what happened for real and see how far you get.
In the event of a war, the safest place in the world to be, would be in a deckchair on the Pentagon roof.

 

[SOMERLED]

First, I didn't author that page, much less write the tripe you quoted above. BTW, said tripe is the claim that 911myths is addressing, not the rebuttal. But you probably already knew that, didn't you?

Not at all, I was referred to that by your colleague. Kindly take the matter up with him.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Was the ACTUAL invasion a hoax ? Yes or No ? And if it wasn't, how do you explain that, since it wasn't 100% to succeed ?

Statement prepared by Eisenhower to be delivered in the event of failure:

Our landings in the Cherbourg-Harve area have failed to gain a satisfactory foothold and I have withdrawn the troops. My decision to attack at this time and place was based upon the best information available. The troops, the air and the Navy did all that bravery and devotion to duty could do. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt it is mine alone.

 

[pomeroo]

Flight 77 was a 757, thus it could not have conducted the manouevres the govt said it did.

As always, you simply don't know what you're talking about:

http://911myths.com/Another_Expert.pdf

 

[pomeroo]

Not at all, I was referred to that by your colleague. Kindly take the matter up with him.

Can we take this embarrassing evasion as a concession speech? You have been pretending that 767s and 757s are capable of being flown by remote control. Apathoid has exposed your falsehoods. Is he wrong about something?

 

[gumboot]

A jet could have got from Andrews to the Pentagon, tarmac to Pentagon in under 30 seconds. Try doing what happened for real and see how far you get.
In the event of a war, the safest place in the world to be, would be in a deckchair on the Pentagon roof.

Well, to begin with it takes longer than 30s to get a jet fighter engine up to temperature and do all of the final checks to ensure the aircraft is ready for flight. It also takes longer than 30s to taxi a fighter from the flight line to the threshold.

On 9/11 NORAD alert fighters were expected to be airbourne within 15 minutes of a scramble order being issued.

Of course all of this is academic. NORAD had no fighters at Andrews AFB. Andrews AFB was not an alert site.

Only one fighter squadron was stationed at Andrews AFB; the 121st Fighter Squadron. Prior to 9/11 they did not have any NORAD duties.

If the roof of the Pentagon is indeed the safest place to be during a war, perhaps you can explain the reason behind Cheyenne Mountain, the E-4B Nightwatch, E-6 Mercury, and E-8 Joint STARS.

-Gumboot

 

[SOMERLED]

Beachnut explains how easy it would be to navigate to NYC, and your response is that the engines were wrong. You do realize that this is a passive concession by you that you no longer stand by your statement that the hijackers could not have made it to NYC.

Now that that's clear, we can move on. Please don't bring up the navigation question again.

Your point about remotely piloted planes, I admit, will stand. The Raytheon tests show that it is theoretically possible to fit a commercial plane with automated navigation systems. A system like this would not be able to override the control inputs of a pilot on board, but I think you're proposing empty planes anyway. Also, a system like this would require hundreds of engineering people to design, test, and install (the described Raytheon system wouldn't do this, it's only an automated landing system), so that is an issue for you, but I acknowledge that if a large, well-funded team really wanted to do that, it would be possible.

I take it, we can now proceed to Offutt, albeit under protest.
Unfortunately, I will not be back for 5 or 6 hours.
I say Offutt because of the golf tournament and the setting up of Buffet as a patsy. Both Buffet and David Rockefeller are so old, that criminal proceedings against either are a complete non starter. I think Rockefeller is 92, I might be wrong. Either of them would hardly need to produce a sick note. They've both been set up in their different ways. Cheney will fall back on sick notes, if he and Whackjob fail to run the clock out.
Be under no illusions, this was mass murder by a clique within and without the govt and everybody and their uncle knows.

 

[SOMERLED]

Malcolm:
Have the words "Wow, I was wrong about that!" ever left your lips?
Just curious.

Hey, pleased to see you Jim. I hope you are now fully recovered.
Certainly, how's this,
Wow, I was wrong about that.
I'm referring to spelling frites with two t's.
I don't mind being wrong Jim, only God is perfect. I get as close as I can.

 

[SOMERLED]

Commandos are infantry, not sailors. They don't steer landing craft. What a ridiculous notion. And what an appalling waste of resources such a notion would be.

Why not have the SAS refuelling transport aircraft...

As for "Patten's invisible army" (and it's Patton, by the way), the entire point of Operation Fortitude was to make the dummy invasion forces highly visible.

An "invisible" decoy force would defeat the entire point of having a decoy.

-Gumboot

We're back to Grandma's and eggs again. What are now Royal Marine Commandos were then army commandos. They did indeed steer the landing craft, although it will take me some time to find the evidence.
If one of you wizzards of the keyboard would care to take the time, you do have four or five hours. I really must fly now.