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So what's this War about anyway?

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SirPhilip said:
Card carrying neoconservative. The real reason will probably bore you. Islam and the West are fighting for world domination. It hasn't even started yet. Then there's China to contend with during the space race.

So. Who do you want to win? :duel
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You basically said that Neoconservatives are racists, are you aware of that? :confused:
 
Oliver said:
You basically said that Neoconservatives are racists, are you aware of that? :confused:
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No, I wasn't. But this does raise an interesting, incendiary question: exactly how do you characterize an ethnic group with a cultural identity largely singularly hellbent on:
  • Social assimilation of any culture they come into contact with through violence.
  • Hatred, dehumanization, and humiliation of women.
...without actually resorting to themes of inate, human inferiority.
 
Oliver said:
Does somebody in here have an Idea what this war is about if:
  • Saddam was no threat at the time or "in the future"
  • Had no nuclear Weapons of Mass destruction
  • Wouldn't have used them anyway against the US
    because he was mad but not dumb
  • Was opposed to terrorists
  • The whole crap had nothing to do with 9/11
  • The whole crap had nothing to do with 9/11
  • And the whole crap had nothing to do with 9/11?
So? What is it beside the official fairytale?
Freedom and Democracy for Iraq? *Bwahahaha* :mad: Nice Try.
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That's not really what it's about. It's about teaching thugocracies that the US isn't doing things by the old way anymore.

Unfortunately, due to bad planning, we're having a problem in Iraq at the moment, which is hampering what would have ideally been just the need to huff a little bit at Iran.
 
SirPhilip said:
No, I wasn't. But this does raise an interesting, incendiary question: exactly how do you characterize an ethnic group with a cultural identity largely singularly hellbent on:
  • Social assimilation of any culture they come into contact with through violence.
  • Hatred, dehumanization, and humiliation of women.
...without actually resorting to themes of inate, human inferiority.
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You missed my first reply to your first message in here because I actually live in a country with Iranians, Turks, Kurds and some other Muslim groups. There never was a war to convert them to democratic thinking. So I don't really see a reason to suppress peolpe to do so.

Anyway: I could point all your arguments against you:

Violence, Hatred (Gay, Abortion...), Racism, Assimilation (Neocons), Pornography and so on. It would be a good Idea to look into the mirror from time to time. Because we aren't better if you look at it neutrally.

So who are you that you think that you're better just because you think different?

And while I'm against suppression of women, in their culture it is no suppression as long women are okay with that. You may study Turkey and how it changed over the last 100 years - culturally, democratically and also concerning the western point of view. And they also have regions that are still pretty traditional.

So what is this Crusade-Neoconservatism fallacy about? Religion, racism or Imperialism? Or all of it?
 
Planet Of The Like, Um, Apes..

Oliver said:
So who are you that you think that you're better just because you think different?
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This really isn't the place to start a stand up comedy routine. I'll play stupid though. So, you prefer Sharia law and theocratic nationalism to Western or European style democracy? Western values and Arab cultural standards are day and night (respectively). Progressive and regressive. Pick one. Or don't, and I'll have fun watching you belly dance.

And while I'm against suppression of women, in their culture it is no suppression as long women are okay with that. You may study Turkey and how it changed over the last 100 years - culturally, democratically and also concerning the western point of view. And they also have regions that are still pretty traditional.
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A woman in any given Arab state who, if given the opportunity on television, announces she prefers to have an active sex life and wear clothing which enhances her appeal to men, is roughly equivalent to threatening to detonate a nuclear device on public school grounds in the U.S, except they likely won't be worked over the face with a baseball bat by officials in the latter case.

So what is this..
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Ok. So you dispute modern Arab culture is not overwhelmingly regressive and degenerate?
 
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Beerina said:
That's not really what it's about. It's about teaching thugocracies that the US isn't doing things by the old way anymore. Unfortunately, due to bad planning, we're having a problem in Iraq at the moment, which is hampering what would have ideally been just the need to huff a little bit at Iran.
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Those directed energy 'crowd control' LTL solutions can't arrive fast enough..
 
SirPhilip said:
This really isn't the place to start a stand up comedy routine. I'll play stupid though. So, you prefer Sharia law and theocratic nationalism to Western or European style democracy? Western values and Arab cultural standards are day and night (respectively). Progressive and regressive. Pick one. Or don't, and I'll have fun watching you belly dance.
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Personally I prefer the western way of live. But since I think it's not "their" business to rule our way of life or to dictate what we have to do (as long we don't mess up their countries), I also fairly tolerate that "we" shouldn't do so. Or to explain it a little bit more simple: If you don't want the Muslims kill your daughter, don't kill one of their daughter in the first place.

And you know what I mean - we see this on a weekly basis in the "Gaza-Muppet Show".

Anyway: It's not your business to judge if the jewish, muslim, christian or Hindu religion (or politics) is the best one. And as I stated before - talking about the Turks, they actually are a democratic, modern, secular, unitary, constitutional republic. Without any military intervention or Pinky and the Brain policies.

SirPhilip said:
A woman in any given Arab state who, if given the opportunity on television, announces she prefers to have an active sex life and wear clothing which enhances her appeal to men, is roughly equivalent to threatening to detonate a nuclear device on public school grounds in the U.S, except they likely won't be worked over the face with a baseball bat by officials in the latter case.
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So you're implying that the Neocons care about Women (probably children, too) while "we" killed at least several hundred-thousands in the last 20 years?

Mhmm, makes sense.
But how would they argue?

"Americans teenager get pregnant because their Parents don't really care, most of them use drugs, they have Porn everywhere on the Internet and no moral. These murderers invaded Iraq for ***insert here*** (Oil), blamed them for 9/11 and their Politicians knew it wasn't true. They have no family values, 50% of Marriages are divorced. Their Children have no respect for their Parents, they don't care for their grandparents and put them into "homes" for the aged..."

More? See - they have some pretty good arguments, too. So who's right now?

SirPhilip said:
Ok. So you dispute modern Arab culture is not overwhelmingly regressive and degenerate?
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Regressive? You mean like suddenly coming to the stone age-conclusion that we were created 6000 years ago? No.

And what do you mean by "degenerate"? Like the "degenerated" Jews - let's kill them all? :confused:

You may take a look into other religions if you really think Muslims are "regressive" or "degenerated" just because you listened to some distorted Faux-News because I don't believe you know anything about others.

So I ask you again since you already showed that Neoconservatism is a racial issue - at least from your point of view: What about Imperialism and Religion? And is this a common Neocon-attitude you have?
 
ETA: Do we have more Neo-conservatives in here and can they confirm SirPhilip's explanation about Neo-conservatism?

By the Way: To which political-wing are the "White Supremacists"-type of guys connected and what party do they prefer?
 
SirPhilip said:
This really isn't the place to start a stand up comedy routine. I'll play stupid though. So, you prefer Sharia law and theocratic nationalism to Western or European style democracy? Western values and Arab cultural standards are day and night (respectively). Progressive and regressive. Pick one. Or don't, and I'll have fun watching you belly dance.

A woman in any given Arab state who, if given the opportunity on television, announces she prefers to have an active sex life and wear clothing which enhances her appeal to men, is roughly equivalent to threatening to detonate a nuclear device on public school grounds in the U.S, except they likely won't be worked over the face with a baseball bat by officials in the latter case.

Ok. So you dispute modern Arab culture is not overwhelmingly regressive and degenerate?
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Are you really this ignorant, or are you joking? You are suggesting cultural differences as justification for a war? :confused:

Let me sum up your position:

Making sure our women are happy is our biggest concern.

We show how we respect our women in our porn. Where they are called every disgusting name in the book and spit on, while we mutilate their anuses. Our superior way of life justifies all this, and the killing of innocent people, because we have a better military. Erm, morality. :boxedin:

Maybe you can answer, since everyone else is completely dodging the question. Why are you not fighting in Iraq?
 
g4macdad said:
Are you really this ignorant, or are you joking? You are suggesting cultural differences as justification for a war? :confused:

Let me sum up your position:

Making sure our women are happy is our biggest concern.

We show how we respect our women in our porn. Where they are called every disgusting name in the book and spit on, while we mutilate their anuses. Our superior way of life justifies all this, and the killing of innocent people, because we have a better military. Erm, morality. :boxedin:

Maybe you can answer, since everyone else is completely dodging the question. Why are you not fighting in Iraq?
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I have a strong impression that he has at least very intolerant racial tendencies - which doesn't bother me very much in contrast to the Idea that maybe all Neoconservatives think so.

In this case I would consider this as a huge Problem - and a catastrophe for any future foreign policy by some - well, let's name it: NeoNazis. Because a bunch of NeoNazis mixing up the Middle-East is pretty good stuff to write a world war III story about it.
 
g4macdad said:
Are you really this ignorant, or are you joking? You are suggesting cultural differences as justification for a war? :confused:
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Since when did war become not ideological and set into motion for ethical grounds?

Making sure our women are happy is our biggest concern.
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Some women deserve to be happier than others.

We show how we respect our women in our porn. Where they are called every disgusting name in the book and spit on, while we mutilate their anuses. Our superior way of life justifies all this, and the killing of innocent people, because we have a better military. Erm, morality. :boxedin:
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I'm not going to even dignify this with an explanation, but let any self-respecting woman reading this sort you out. A little known humiliating, degrading, embarrassing, soon to be an ethnic stereotype is Muslim men universally, are so sexually underdeveloped any woman, who, often simply by removing a veil, sabotages whatever dignified manhood they develop through wearing dresses and constantly invoking a merciless parental figure, and sets into motion a dynamism of self-loathing no western man can comprehend.

Maybe you can answer, since everyone else is completely dodging the question. Why are you not fighting in Iraq?
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  1. I haven't been drafted.
  2. I have a very bad knee, which would likely exclude me from any combat role, despite me being an expert rifleman.
  3. The appeal of playing Dunk Hunt with a Barrett 50. on top of a roof and sending $300,000 of your tax dollars onto a Mosque with a laser designator, possibly adding a few scars, ideally nonlethal, to my physique later on, definitely has appeal. But better contributions are ahead of me to the world at large, I like to think.
 
SirPhilip said:
Since when did war become not ideological and set into motion for ethical grounds?

Some women deserve to be happier than others.

I'm not going to even dignify this with an explanation, but let any self-respecting woman reading this sort you out. A little known humiliating, degrading, embarrassing, soon to be an ethnic stereotype is Muslim men universally, are so sexually underdeveloped any woman, who, often simply by removing a veil, sabotages whatever dignified manhood they develop through wearing dresses and constantly invoking a merciless parental figure, and sets into motion a dynamism of self-loathing no western man can comprehend.

  1. I haven't been drafted.
  2. I have a very bad knee, which would likely exclude me from any combat role, despite me being an expert rifleman.
  3. The appeal of playing Dunk Hunt with a Barrett 50. on top of a roof and sending $300,000 of your tax dollars onto a Mosque with a laser designator, possibly adding a few scars, ideally nonlethal, to my physique later on, definitely has appeal. But better contributions are ahead of me to the world at large, I like to think.
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You are saying you feel strongly enough on this issue to put other's lives on the line. But if it is actually your life, you turn into a little b**ch.

Very typical, and the main cause of situations like this current one.
 
g4macdad said:
You are saying you feel strongly enough on this issue to put other's lives on the line. But if it is actually your life, you turn into a little b**ch. Very typical, and the main cause of situations like this current one.
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I guess I could have wrote anything, and he'd have repeated this liberal stereotype. So, you think everyone who supported invading the middle east, which like all invasions throughout history, boils down to ideological difference and resources, should overturn their entire lives to participate in what is statistically, a shooting gallery, in Iraq. The only "little b-tches" are those viewing those in volunteer military combat roles as victims in a hopeless situation, rather than people enjoying their jobs and the adventure of it. They are essentially two types of Armed Forces member in Iraq right now:
  1. Those who joined for college/educational civil benefits, or with an emphasis on civilian life.
  2. Those who wanted to be warriors, enjoy the stresses and rush of battle, and the thrill of hunting other men, and the risk of being hunted. These people aren't complaining about why they are there, or why you aren't there, they know why they are there. Because they want to be.
It is relatively easy to distinguish the two, because the former is the one actually whining about why the are there in the first place, while the latter sees the actual point, and only complains about logistical mismanagement, and there is plenty right now.
 
Oliver said:
If you don't want the Muslims kill your daughter, don't kill one of their daughter in the first place.
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But if a muslim wants to kill his own daughter? That's just dandy. No need for us to get involved.

Anyway: It's not your business to judge if the jewish, muslim, christian or Hindu religion (or politics) is the best one.
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Screw religion: things like honor killings, forced marriages, genital mutilation, and other forms of extreme gender oppression are WRONG. You can claim that that's not really part of Islam if you want to (though the correlation suggests otherwise), but that's actually beside the point. If you can't actually say that such practices are indeed worse than how we in the west live, then you're not being tolerant, you're being disgustingly amoral, and you should be ashamed.

So you're implying that the Neocons care about Women (probably children, too) while "we" killed at least several hundred-thousands in the last 20 years?
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WE killed that many? No, we did not. Perhaps that many died in conflicts which we were involved in, but that's not the same thing as us killing that many.

Regressive? You mean like suddenly coming to the stone age-conclusion that we were created 6000 years ago? No.
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Then you haven't been paying attention, because creationism IS big in the muslim world.

So I ask you again since you already showed that Neoconservatism is a racial issue
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It's not a racial issue, it's an ideological issue.

What about Imperialism and Religion?
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What about imperialism? America isn't an empire, it's a hegemon. And there's a difference. But Islam? It has been an empire in the past (ever heard the term "caliphate"?). And the jihadis are quite explicit about wanting it to be again. Since the collapse of the USSR, the jihadis have been the only real imperialists around.
 
g4macdad said:
You are saying you feel strongly enough on this issue to put other's lives on the line. But if it is actually your life, you turn into a little b**ch.
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Said the human shield.

What, you didn't put your life on the life to try to stop this war? Oh, my mistake. I thought you were someone with intellectual consistency - don't know how I made that mistake, but I promise I won't make it again.
 
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