10 story hole in WTC 7

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I can speak from personal experience of people i have talked to and the fact that Stephen Jones and Kevin Ryan lost their jobs.
Right. You don't have a shred of evidence that sturctural engineers around the world 1) agree with you, or 2) would have any reason to be aware of Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan. Sorry, given your history here, "people I have talked to" will not be taken seriously.

Also;

Lt. Col. Anthony Schaffer
Navy Capt. Scott Phillpott
James D. Smith
Major Eric Kleinsmith
(Able Danger, Pentagon whistle blowers)

Col. Steve Butler (man who trained two of the hijackers in US spy training in 1997)

Sibel Edmonds and Robert Wright (FBI agents)

Indira Singh

Major Mike McCormack, one of the most decorated and celebrated heroes of 9/11 in NY.

These people were threatened, fired, their pensions taken away, legally gagged, or attacked by a SWAT team (in the case of McCormack)
The only person among these who claimed that 9/11 was an inside job is Steve Butler, who was properly disciplined for claiming that the president knew about 9/11 and allowed to happen – although he presented zero evidence to back his claim.
“Of course President Bush knew about the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. His daddy had Saddam and he needed Osama. His presidency was going nowhere. He wasn’t elected by the American people, but placed in the Oval Office by a conservative supreme court. The economy was sliding into the usual Republican pits and he needed something on which to hang his presidency.... This guy is a joke. What is sleazy and contemptible is the President of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain.”
His punishment could have been much more severe: he could have been court-martialed. Trained hijackers in 1997? When you produce that evidence it will be big news. What are you waiting for?

Mike McCormack? He was investigated because neighbors smelled an odor of chemicals coming from his house. He was arrested for having a gun that he had illegally taken across state lines. Your claim that he was attacked by a SWAT team is a lie.

Likewise, only one of these people said anything about the collapse of any WTC building: Indira Singh. She was an EMT who was not near the building, who believed WTC 7 was going to come down or going to be brought down. And she has been stifled how?

So those are the people you name as backing your story? You lose.

As for your other demands, I suggest that you read my paper on WTC 7, and I suggest that you contact Dylan Avery. If you won't do that, I can't help you.
 
For Christ's sake they were part of the report that is the essence of the 'official story'. How much more on record can one be? Do you want a written affidavit from each of them?
A personal public statement will do.

You forget that the 'official story' is a hypothesis.

That means that all those engineers don't believe WTC 7 collapsed due to fire.

They believe it "appears possible".


Approach Summary 12-6-06

"This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation."
 
That doesn't seem to be much of a problem with most Democrats or many members of the media.
Phil Donahue had the highest rated show on MSNBC but he was canceled.

Dennis Kucinich is made fun of or ignored by MSM.

Jones, Ryan and the other people i mentioned lost their jobs for challenging the 'official story'.

Many people, including some here, have such contempt for the first amendment that they think it's alright to fire people for saying 9/11 was an inside job.


This is a grass roots movement that is growing.

There's no organization, it's just a lot of people from different walks of life who feel compelled to get the truth [as we see it] out.

You think we're nuts and we think you are idiots for believing your government wouldn't do such a thing.


The essence of democracy is:

Everyone is allowed to think what they want and say what they think.

The problem with democracy is:

Everybody does.
 
A personal public statement will do.

You forget that the 'official story' is a hypothesis.

That means that all those engineers don't believe WTC 7 collapsed due to fire.

They believe it "appears possible".


Approach Summary 12-6-06

"This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation."
If only some qualified investigative body would study this hypothesis!

Why won't they, Chris?
 
Jones, Ryan and the other people i mentioned lost their jobs for challenging the 'official story'.
Jones and Ryan lost their jobs because they lied and misrepresented in order to make a political claim. They are frauds. Why do you support them?
 
<snip>we think you are idiots for believing your government wouldn't do such a thing.>

First, who is this "we" of which you speak?

Second, who is this "you" of which you speak?

Third, who are these "idiots" that you claim believe "[their] government wouldn't do such a thing"?

Bonus question: How many errors and logical fallacies can you identify in your post #2505?
 
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The question isn't whether the government would do such a thing, but whether the government could do such a thing.
 
"Phil Donahue had the highest rated show on MSNBC but he was canceled."

NO he didn't, unless you mean just toward the end.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/TV/02/25/donahue.ap/index.html
Phil Donahue on Tuesday, abruptly ending the veteran talk show host's return to television after six months of poor ratings.
It was only toward the end when his ratings got better. But he compaired poorly to others.
During this month, a "sweeps" month in which ratings are watched closely to set advertising rates, "Donahue" averaged 446,000 viewers. O'Reilly drew 2.7 million viewers, up 28 percent from February 2002, according to Nielsen Media Research.

Connie Chung's CNN show that debuted shortly before "Donahue" averaged 985,000 viewers this month, Nielsen said.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/25/entertainment/main542005.shtml
It was too little too late.

Maybe you should see what Olbermann is doing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Olbermann
His own show, Countdown, debuted shortly thereafter on March 31, 2003, in the 8 p.m. ET time slot previously held by programs hosted by Phil Donahue and, briefly, Lester Holt.

I hear he's doing terrible and loves Bush....LOL!
http://www.thedarkstuff.com/2006/10/keith-olbermanns-ratings-up-69.html




"Dennis Kucinich is made fun of or ignored by MSM."

Beacuse he's a crackpot with no chance and he does silly things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGmYhTYLbno
But if it helps....here's MSM.... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16925593/
Can Dennis Kucinich capitalize? The pride of Cleveland on how his anti-war politics went mainstream, what he's got on Obama and Hillary, and what makes him run. FULL STORY

"Jones, Ryan and the other people i mentioned lost their jobs for challenging the 'official story'."

Because they lied and or misrepresented information. But in the end Jones quit.

"Many people, including some here, have such contempt for the first amendment that they think it's alright to fire people for saying 9/11 was an inside job."

Im sure some do.


"This is a grass roots movement that is growing."

I haven't seen it growing much since the 5th anniversary.

BTW I hear speaking out is a real problem for Charlie Sheen.
http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Charlie-Sheen-Becomes-Highest-Paid-Comic-Actor-On-TV-1155.html

Sources said Sheen will earn about $350,000 per episode this season from producer of the CBS powerhouse, Warner Bros. Television. This represents a hefty increase from his previous payday in the low six figures.
 
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http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2281333#post2281333

Right. You don't have a shred of evidence that sturctural engineers around the world 1) agree with you,
Wrong

I quoted two structural engineers from Europe who say WTC 7 was a CD.

You even acknowledged my post.

or 2) would have any reason to be aware of Steven Jones and Kevin Ryan.
?

The only person among these who claimed that 9/11 was an inside job is Steve Butler, who was properly disciplined for claiming that the president knew about 9/11 and allowed to happen – although he presented zero evidence to back his claim.
His punishment could have been much more severe: he could have been court-martialed. Trained hijackers in 1997?
Different people were fired for saying different things.
The point is:
They were fired for going against the official story.
Of course, it never occurred to you that Butler was telling the truth.
He had no reason to make up a story that would get him fired.
He is a brave person who told the truth and paid the price, just like Jones and Ryan.
You may not like it but they have a right to say what they think without fear of reprisal.

Mike McCormack? He was investigated because neighbors smelled an odor of chemicals coming from his house. He was arrested for having a gun that he had illegally taken across state lines. Your claim that he was attacked by a SWAT team is a lie.
You're right, he was not attacked, he just had a SWAT team point their guns at his head and had his house ransacked.

Mike McCormic is a 9/11 hero, who is speaking out against Bush and Cristie Todd Whitman for hiding the dangers of the toxic dust at ground zero.

For this, he paid a price.

Because a neighbor smelled the odor of chemicals, they sent 6 detectives and a 15 member SWAT team.

He had allowed detectives to enter his house to search it, without a search warrant.

The SWAT team was not necessary.

Please read his story an see his video.

http://www.netscape.com/tag/mike+mccormack

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5960554325625810328

Likewise, only one of these people said anything about the collapse of any WTC building: Indira Singh. She was an EMT who was not near the building, who believed WTC 7 was going to come down or going to be brought down. And she has been stifled how?
Here's her story. Read the section "Sent to the principal's office"

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050301231231793


As for your other demands, I suggest that you read my paper on WTC 7, and I suggest that you contact Dylan Avery. If you won't do that, I can't help you.
You said you had evidence to the contrary.

Please demonstrate that you are not lying.

Post your evidence.

Don't tell me to go look for it.

I don't think you have any.


You stated the $13,700 price for the 9/11 pics and vids as a fact in post #446

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2281333#post2281333

You did not say you heard it from Dylan. [you don't believe a word he says]

Now that it turns out to be false, you say Dylan said it in a radio interview but you don't have a source.

Please demonstrate that you are not lying again.

Provide a source or retract the statement.
 
If only some qualified investigative body would study this hypothesis!

Why won't they, Chris?
If only people would stop saying WTC 7 collapsed due to debris damage/fire until some qualified body finishes their investigation and confirms this hypothesis.

Why don't you Gravy?
 
Wrong
I quoted two structural engineers from Europe who say WTC 7 was a CD.

You even acknowledged my post.
Two from the same firm who did nothing but watch a few videos equals "Structural engineers from around the world?" Out of hundreds of thousands? I gave you a list of 145 structural and fire protection engineers who actually worked on the 9/11 investigation, and who disagree with you. You lose.

Different people were fired for saying different things.
The point is:
They were fired for going against the official story.
I asked you for your list of experts who back your story, and this is what you come up with?

Let's try this again. Here's your list. Point out the people who were fired for going against the official story of 9/11.

Lt. Col. Anthony Schaffer
Navy Capt. Scott Phillpott
James D. Smith
Major Eric Kleinsmith
Col. Steve Butler
Sibel Edmonds
Robert Wright
Indira Singh
Major Mike McCormack

Of course, it never occurred to you that Butler was telling the truth.
He had no reason to make up a story that would get him fired.
He is a brave person who told the truth and paid the price, just like Jones and Ryan.
Since there isn't a shred of evidence to back his opinion, it was correct to reprimand him.

You may not like it but they have a right to say what they think without fear of reprisal.
Not in the military, chief. Not in private enterprise, chief.

You're right, he was not attacked, he just had a SWAT team point their guns at his head and had his house ransacked.
Your evidence that any guns were pointed at his head and that his house was ransacked?

Mike McCormic is a 9/11 hero, who is speaking out against Bush and Cristie Todd Whitman for hiding the dangers of the toxic dust at ground zero.

For this, he paid a price.

Because a neighbor smelled the odor of chemicals, they sent 6 detectives and a 15 member SWAT team.
Ever hear of terrorism? Ever hear of meth labs?

The SWAT team was not necessary.
How the hell did they know that?

From the video:

"70 to 80 percent of all the (U.S. intelligence) agencies involved are Manchurian Candidates."

"The only thing that Homeland Security does is decimate the United States Constitution."

"Alex Jones here, he's filmed many (Homeland Security) drills in his area, where he lives. This is done constantly. But this is done to suppress the American public. This is not done to help them. I have a close friend that lives next door. He builds the secret jails. And I've seen one myself in Brooklyn. This is to decimate the Constitution, take away your right to bear arms, suppress the media, and not allow anything to come out that shows any negativity on the government."
Man, are they doing a TERRIBLE job of keeping the negativity out of the press! Heads at NWO HQ oughta roll for this!

What was Bush's approval rating last week, 28%? And how about those secret prisons? Not so secret if they're in Brooklyn and can be visited by Mike McCormack.

McCormack's got some good points about air quality at Ground Zero. Those are not secrets. Otherwise he's a kook, speaking at an event hosted by Les Jamieson and attended by other kooks. "Manchurian Candidates?" Dude, get a grip.

Here's her story. Read the section "Sent to the principal's office"
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050301231231793
Oh, so the EMT who said she thought WTC 7 was going to come down or be brought down, was also a risk management IT specialist who claims that there's a "CIA within the CIA," and that Ptech was a CIA front company. Er, too bad she has no evidence of that. The article says she was threatened "in no uncertain terms." Well, that's a criminal offense. So what did she do about it? Her story leaves out the fact that Ptech was investigated by the FBI. No one from that company was charged with any crime because no evidence of wrongdoing was found.

You said you had evidence to the contrary.
Please demonstrate that you are not lying.
Post your evidence.
I did. But haven't you noticed my constant admonishments that these issues are being investigated by NIST, that they haven't released their final report yet, and that you're basing your claims on preliminary information? Why are you keeping up this straw man act?

You stated the $13,700 price for the 9/11 pics and vids as a fact in post #446

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2281333#post2281333

You did not say you heard it from Dylan. [you don't believe a word he says]

Now that it turns out to be false, you say Dylan said it in a radio interview but you don't have a source.

Please demonstrate that you are not lying again.

Provide a source or retract the statement.
I GAVE you the source, ye of short-term memory. His name is Dylan Avery, and you can contact him. And he's not the only one:

Indybayradio San Francisco 9/2/06 interview with Jason Bermas:

34:32 "We were really trying to get the NIST footage, which was on sale for about $14,000, but they also
put a stipulation on it that you can't use this in any other venue but your home use."
 
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Two from the same firm who did nothing but watch a few videos equals "Structural engineers from around the world?"
The videos are all that is needed to see WTC 7 was a CD.
They are qualified to make the call, you are not.

Out of hundreds of thousands? I gave you a list of 145 structural and fire protection engineers who actually worked on the 9/11 investigation, and who disagree with you.
My statement that started this particular debate was:

"Fires cannot cause high rise buildings to implode the way WTC 7 did."

Did all 145 structural engineers on that list say that fires could cause a high rise building to collapse the way WTC 7 did?

Let's try this again. Here's your list. Point out the people who were fired for going against the official story.
For an English major, your reading comprehension really sucks.

"These people were threatened, fired, their pensions taken away, legally gagged or terrorized by a SWAT team.

Lt. Col. Anthony Schaffer
Navy Capt. Scott Phillpott
James D. Smith
Major Eric Kleinsmith
Col. Steve Butler
Sibel Edmonds
Robert Wright
Indira Singh
Major Mike McCormack

Since there isn't a shred of evidence to back his opinion, it was correct to reprimand him.
The evidence went the way of Bush's National Guard records and Cheney's emails.

Not in the military, chief. Not in private enterprise, chief.
Every soldier takes an oath to protect the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Each is honor bound to blow the whistle when a crime has been committed.
Those in private enterprise have the right to free speech.
Some employers don't believe in the first amendment, they are not good or patriotic citizens.

Your evidence that any guns were pointed at his head and that his house was ransacked?
His word. SWAT teams do that sort of thing.
Ever hear of terrorism? Ever hear of meth labs?

How the hell did they know that?
He let the 6 detectives search his house without a search warrant.
He was cooperating.
He was not a threat.
He was outnumbered six to one.
There was no need to call in the SWAT team.

Man, are they doing a TERRIBLE job of keeping the negativity out of the press! Heads at NWO HQ oughta roll for this!
It ain't in the press, it's on google video. MSM doesn't cover people like Mike McCormack


McCormack's got some good points about air quality at Ground Zero. Those are not secrets.
That's an understatement.

Otherwise he's a kook, speaking at an event hosted by Les Jamieson and attended by other kooks.
You have such great respect for the heroes of 9/11 until they say something you don't want to hear, then they're 'kooks'.

Can you spell 'hypocrite' ?

Mike is a 9/11 hero who is fighting for the first responders who are dying because Bush told Whitman to lie about the dangers at ground zero.
The government is not helping them.
This is a national disgrace.

Oh, so the EMT who said she thought WTC 7 was going to come down or be brought down, was also a risk management IT specialist who claims that there's a "CIA within the CIA," and that Ptech was a CIA front company. Er, too bad she has no evidence of that.
She has money trails and a web people connections.

The article says she was threatened "in no uncertain terms." Well, that's a criminal offense. So what did she do about it?
What could she do, it's a he said she said.

Her story leaves out the fact that Ptech was investigated by the FBI. No one from that company was charged with any crime because no evidence of wrongdoing was found.
Read the whole article, there's some intrigue in the FBI's handling of the whole thing.

No

C7 said:
The statements in the NIST and FEMA reports [that you insisted i read] clearly show that

the 10 story gouge described on pg 18 did not exist

Do you have statements or other evidence to the contrary?

Gravy said:
Of course I do.

You have NOT said what those statements are or what that evidence is.

But haven't you noticed my constant admonishments that these issues are being investigated by NIST, that they haven't released their final report yet, and that you're basing your claims on preliminary information?
You haven't noticed my constant reminders that "There is no evidence" is in the present tense. [i.e. the real world] and there's no reason to believe that there will be evidence to prove the fighters who said "no heavy debris in the lobby areas" were mistaken or that a 10 story gouge, 60 to 80 feet wide and 30 to 40 feet deep, escaped Chief Fellini's notice, or that this gouge somehow left the atrium glass intact.
These things are not going to change in the final report.

You have not provided evidence to the contrary and you cannot deny you stated the $13,700 pic & vid special as a fact.

ETA: you didn't mention the 'only for home use" part.
 
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The videos are all that is needed to see WTC 7 was a CD.

Is it ? This statement is fascinating. I thought you were the one saying that the removal and destruction of the physical evidence made it impossible to tell if it was a CD or not. I think you've just tipped your hand: evidence has nothing to do with your belief.
 
The videos are all that is needed to see WTC 7 was a CD.

Sigh. Your delusional, petulant behavior is simply sad. I can only conclude that you are incapable of thinking as an adult. Well, I'll just add this post to your greatest hits, and hope that some day something will happen that puts you on a rational path. My arguments certainly haven't helped. Goodbye.

Christopher7 said:
We don't need a paper trail. There's enough video and documentry evidence to convict Cheney et al of high treason!

Yes, the photographic evidence is enough for me, and any reasonible person.

This case will be tired in the court of public opinion and the positive social effect will be a major house cleaning in Washington. (God willing)

That JERK in the White house OFFed 3000 people.

I can better assess the damage, sitting here at my computer 5 years later, because i can see the other 2 [perhaps 3] sides of wtc 7 that the firefighter could not see.

You don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows. And i don't need a engineer to tell me what i can see with my own eyes.

At 63 or any age I'm trying to save my country from the unspeakibly EVIL men who MURDERED 3000 Americans on 9-11.

It's up to us in the US to blow this thing wide open. I won't settle for a bandaid,
We need to do some serious whole world house cleaning.

This issue will be decided right here on the web, the only place where the truth can be spread.

We don't need another investigation. A little common sense will do.

Scholars for 9/11 Thuth have done RESEARCH and had that research verified by pier review [other Phd's].

On David RAy Griffin's "9/11 Commission Report Omissions..."
It's a lot to read folks, but read it as if your freedom depended on it becaues it DOES!

Weather or not you believe Jones, you won't be able to find a qualified person to say otherwise.

The MOLTEN METAL could have ONLY be caused by THERMATE.

Thermate is made to melt steel and is therefore a possibility.
There are NO other possibilities.
End of story!


The evidence that the Pentagon was hit by someting other than a 757 is right in front of you but you just can't deal with it.

At some point you have to stop lying to yourself and accept the reality contained in those two photographs.

The coroner found NO body parts, NO blood

It all comes down to what you are willing to believe.

The Sandia video has a F4 hitting a 10' thick reinforced concrete wall head on
In Shanksville a 575 hit filldirt at a 40 degree angle
A better comparison would be a tennis ball hitting an egg after bouncing off a brick wall

Gumboot: explosions don't = explosives but it's certally a strong possibility, especially since there were NO FIRES anywhere in the building EXCEPT WHERE THE PLANES HIT.

What doesn't make sence is putting fireproofing on steel box beams that are 2 ft. by 4 1/2 ft. and 4 in. thick. Why fireproof something that is fireproof ?

Ever use a kerosene lamp? Kerosene DOES NOT EXPLODE! it burns.

The whole kerosene = explosion in the lobby is f*in rediculous

im just a commoner using common sense

It took about 5 seconds for me to recognize that WTC7 was a controlled
demolition. It's a no brainer.

There simply is no other explanation.

Not by NIST, all they got was a walk through. Who inspected the steel and what if anything did they say about the precisely cut ends?

WTC 7 collapsed at free fall speed

Can anyone site another cause for a global collapse in freefall and mostly into the original footprint ?
So, you cannot site another possible cause.
Thats because there is NO other possible cause.

The 5 sec. video of wtc7 falling straight down is the SMOKING GUN that woke me (and Prof. Jones) from our slumber.

My evidence is the 4 min. video and common sense

Chris: You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know a rocket when you see one and you don't have to be a demolitions expert to know a CD when you see one. CD are very distinctive, easy to recognise.
gumboot: CD is distinct compared to what?
Chris: another CD
gumboot: ???

What experts? The firemen, the the people from Controlled Demolition Inc.?

Obtuse? On the contrary sir, i was very direct. I did read the quotes and stated that the firemen and the CD experts saying "the building is comming down" and then it comes down, doesn't explain a GLOBAL collapse but rather a collapse that looks like the Ok. City bldg.

There were only a few scattered fires on the west, north and ease sides of wtc7.


Fires in buildings don't burn hot enough to weaken steel I beams. Where you get this stuff, one of those debunking sites?
 
Sigh. I'll just add this post to your greatest hits, and hope that some day something will happen that puts you on a rational path. My arguments certainly haven't helped. Goodbye.
Danny Jerwenko knew immediately that WTC 7 was a CD, he is an expert.
He later reconfirmed his assessment in this phone call.

http://www.pumpitout.com/audio/danny_jowenko_022207.mp3

He also agrees with me [and many others] that CD experts and structural engineers in this country who say WTC 7 was a CD, will loose their jobs.

The Swiss structural engineers determined WTC 7 was a CD by studying the videos.

William Rice, P. E., is a retired civil engineer and professor at Vermont Technical College.
He says that the Trade Towers and WTC 7 were CD's.

http://www.vermontguardian.com/commentary/032007/TwinTowers.shtml

You asked for experts, you got experts, yet you still can't except the truth.


Before you say goodbye, would you state what your evidence is that there was a 10 story gouge as described on pg 18, or were you lying about that ?
 
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