Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

[Correa Neto]

When it comes to aliens visiting earth, there's absolutely no need for any changes in our current physics knoweledge. Advanced technology? Yes. But advanced technology whose development cn be foressen by extrapolating our current knoweledge.

One can cherry-pick among the UFO lore the "less fancyfull" aspects of the phenomena and create a fiction, I mean, an hypothesis involving generation ships, AI-governed ships, self-replicating machines, etc. warp drives are not required. And those who created and defend such idea would say it is backed by witnesses reports and physical evidence.

UFOs as alien probes studying Earth and run by self-replicating AI are as sound as bigfeet being giant hominids with mid tarsal breaks roaming the forests of Asia and North America. And backed by the very same sort of "evidence" and reasonings.

Prove me wrong by presenting reliable evidence for bigfoot.
Take your time, I can hibernate while waiting...

 

[LAL]

The point with the PDF file?

It mentions Skamania County's ordinance. That was probably the first "official" recognition in this country. No panic was noted.

 

[LTC8K6]

My goodness, a big footprint!

More of them!

Lookit that! It stepped over a fence and went up a hill!

Golly gee!

Wow!

How in the world would anyone fake that?

I have no idea.

Did someone throw a rock?

Hey look here! Water is still filling up this print! He must have just passed by us!

My god, we're right near one of 'em!

I knew I smelled something!

Here, put your foot there while I snap a pic for proof.

Okay, one more.

Aw gee.....I gotta get a loaf of bread.

Yeah, I need to change the oil in my car.

Let's go.

We'll report it to the BFRO.

 

[kitakaze]

Sure. There hasn' been much clever hoaxing in the case of bigfoot. The hoaxers there've been seemed to have an uncanny ability to get caught.

Depends on how you define 'clever'. Nevertheless, it wouldn't be very forthright not to ackowledge that bigfootery is rife with hoaxing. If it's a matter of convincing 'experts' examples are readily available. Making crop circles with a plank and rope while simple can certainly be thought of as clever. Likewise, creating tracks in such a way as to appear not to have been hoaxed can be thought of as clever.

No. I think reports of Venusians delivering them to the back yard can be safely discounted. I'm not very interested in those.

If only it were so easy. It was in Iowa, it had glowing red eyes, it spoke to me in my mind, it spoke in a language I couldn't comprehend, it disappeared before my eyes, it was 12' tall, it carried a big stick, it was all white and hung in a tree, it ran away on all fours, it came into my house through the front door, it took me back to it's clan, etc...

Yes.

Satisfied with the claim(s)?

 

[kitakaze]

The point with the PDF file?

It mentions Skamania County's ordinance. That was probably the first "official" recognition in this country. No panic was noted.

Probably had something to do with no bigfoot. Point of the link? General interest. Plus I'm not really keen to post in the Sylvanic silliness threads. Also, very simply, if bigfoot exists as reported (as filtered) surely officials are aware. If I get a job with the GPNF do I have to sign a secret no-blabbing when you see bigfoot contract?

 

[Belz...]

"The phenomenon itself was observed in its current form after notable appearances in England in the late 1970s. Various explanations were offered for the phenomenon, which soon spread around the world. In 1991, two men named Doug Bower and Dave Chorley revealed that they had been making crop circles in England since 1978 using planks, rope, hats, and wire as their only tools.[1][2] Circlemakers.org,[3] a UK-based arts collective founded by John Lundberg have been creating complex crop circles since the early 1990s.[4]"

You of all people should know that just because SOME people have hoaxed crop circles doesn't mean ALL crop circles are hoaxes.

I've only met three people claiming UFO sightings. One lived near an Air Force base and was in early recovery from alcoholism and addiction, one probably saw a weather balloon caught in an updraft and one said himself a launching occured that evening.

One "probably" saw a weather balloon ? Why are you so quick to dismiss his testimony ?

On the other hand, we have what seems to be a perfectly normal large bipedal primate, largely nocturnal, living in areas that are rugged and mountainous and forested where hikers and hunters and mushroom pickers get lost and die before anyone can find them, even though it's known where they were last seen. No warp drives necessary, no need to suspend natural laws to accomodate a belief system.

Of course we do ! We have to account for the fact that, no matter HOW HARD we look for them, they continue to elude us for centuries.

You dismiss UFO sightings but accept Bigfoot sightings. Alledged bigfoot evidence, no matter how unreliable, is taken at face value while alledged UFO evidence is hand-waved. "We have what seems to be" sounds remarkably like assuming one's conclusions. Bigfoot are no different than UFOs. They both have the same kind of evidence, the same kind of following, and both have fans tha won't ever admit to being wrong.

Why do I believe one and not the other? It's easier.

What does ease of believe have to do with truth ?

 

[Belz...]

Sure. There hasn' been much clever hoaxing in the case of bigfoot. The hoaxers there've been seemed to have an uncanny ability to get caught.

Aw, come on, Lu. Now you're just assuming that those NOT caught were NOT hoaxers ? That's just too much.

 

[kitakaze]

Aw, come on, Lu. Now you're just assuming that those NOT caught were NOT hoaxers ? That's just too much.

Not to mention those who were caught were not always hoaxing.

 

[Correa Neto]

You can't throw away everything Adamski and Meyer presented just because they faked some stuff. After all, they brought some of the most impressive evidence so far!

 

[LTC8K6]

A human head won't fit in there, I tell ya'!

I'm going to superimpose a human skull and...

 

[LAL]

Depends on how you define 'clever'. Nevertheless, it wouldn't be very forthright not to ackowledge that bigfootery is rife with hoaxing. If it's a matter of convincing 'experts' examples are readily available. Making crop circles with a plank and rope while simple can certainly be thought of as clever. Likewise, creating tracks in such a way as to appear not to have been hoaxed can be thought of as clever.If only it were so easy. It was in Iowa, it had glowing red eyes, it spoke to me in my mind, it spoke in a language I couldn't comprehend, it disappeared before my eyes, it was 12' tall, it carried a big stick, it was all white and hung in a tree, it ran away on all fours, it came into my house through the front door, it took me back to it's clan, etc...Satisfied with the claim(s)?

Yes.

I've heard several accounts now, mostly close second hand, and none contain those elements. My cousins saw one standing behind a tree. Four teenagers coming back from the prom saw one cross the road. My sister saw one while camping in Washington. Boring.

Suspected hoaxes seem to get as much credence as the real ones in the world of skepticism. I think the actual number is probably pretty small.

It would make no sense for someone to run around in a gorilla suit in a place like Skamania County where almost everyone is armed. Even Mrs. Wallace was afraid she'd get shot when she posed for Ray's phony photos.

 

[LAL]

Not to mention those who were caught were not always hoaxing.

Huh?

 

[LAL]

You of all people should know that just because SOME people have hoaxed crop circles doesn't mean ALL crop circles are hoaxes.

Ah. Now you get it.

One "probably" saw a weather balloon ? Why are you so quick to dismiss his testimony ?

I didn't dismiss it. From what he described, it was most likely a weather balloon, illuminated by the setting sun and going straight up when it hit an updraft.

Should I have told him it was a craft piloted by aliens?

Of course we do ! We have to account for the fact that, no matter HOW HARD we look for them, they continue to elude us for centuries.

What elude? Native people saw them. Kids and campers have seen them. Someone set up a cage in Oregon, but somehow, they failed to walk into it.

You dismiss UFO sightings but accept Bigfoot sightings.

I don't dismiss unidentified flying object sightings any more than I dismiss unidentified walking object sightings. I do not accept the interpretation that we're being visited by an alien civilization or two.

Alledged bigfoot evidence, no matter how unreliable, is taken at face value while alledged UFO evidence is hand-waved. "We have what seems to be" sounds remarkably like assuming one's conclusions. Bigfoot are no different than UFOs. They both have the same kind of evidence, the same kind of following, and both have fans tha won't ever admit to being wrong.

Went through all that with Correa. Let's not go through it again.

What does ease of believe have to do with truth ?

Occam's razor.

I don't have to go through a bunch of mental gymnastics to explain away events I was close to. I don't have to doubt the sanity of officers who were sworn to protect me or avoid having my oil changed because I might run into that trucker again who saw one near Snoqualmie.

Above all, I don't have to figure out how hoaxers would manage an average 5' stride without falling on their respective asses. That must keep poor LTK up nights.

I sleep pretty well.

 

[tconley2019]

Is that 5' stride left foot to left foot (or equivalently, right to right)? In other words:


___________________Right foot
Left foot_____________________________Left foot
|-------------------------5 ft-------------------|
or are you saying
_________________Right foot
Left foot
|----------5 ft---------|

The first is the usual way strides are reported, but a 5 ft stride isn't exceptional. If you're saying it was 5 ft the second way, that's unusual. My legs are a bit too short to walk that way, but I doubt if it's humanly impossible.

The thing (for me) about crop circles is we were constantly told by advocates that hoaxing didn't make any sense for the majority of circles. They were too remote, too big, too complex, had attributes (mathematical or radiological) that hoaxers couldn't duplicate or lacked the knowledge to duplicate. Eventually, advocates were confident that they could distinguish between a hoaxed and a real crop circle on the basis of their examinations. Then the hoaxers started coming forward.

What if Bigfoot advocates are in a similar position? How can you be certain that the real footprints aren't simply a more complex class of hoax? Given the history of crop circles, and the similarity of the claims made about tracks, can anyone be sure?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Yes.

...............

It would make no sense for someone to run around in a gorilla suit in a place like Skamania County where almost everyone is armed. Even Mrs. Wallace was afraid she'd get shot when she posed for Ray's phony photos.

Why would someone in a gorilla suit be in any more danger of getting shot than an actual Bigfoot ?

We hear endless excuses regarding why one hasn't been shot ...


( Someone quote this, and see what kind of lame tap dance Lu has for this one )

 

[LTC8K6]

If someone in a gorilla suit would get shot, why wouldn't bigfoot get shot?

Are there more fake bigfoot than real bigfoot, or what?

 

[LTC8K6]

Why would it be difficult to space your fake footprints 5 feet apart? Or however far apart one wished?

Why would an honest debater claim it is difficult to do so?

 

[RayG]

If someone in a gorilla suit would get shot, why wouldn't bigfoot get shot?

No fair, you're being logical.

RayG

 

[Belz...]

Ah. Now you get it.

I may have misjudged you. That doesn't sound like very honest debating.

I didn't dismiss it. From what he described, it was most likely a weather balloon, illuminated by the setting sun and going straight up when it hit an updraft.

But you didn't SEE it, and can't conclude that it WAS a weather balloon, can you ?

Should I have told him it was a craft piloted by aliens?

You should've considered the possibility. We should have researchers patrolling the skies, looking for them. They do seem to visit frquently enough.

What elude? Native people saw them. Kids and campers have seen them. Someone set up a cage in Oregon, but somehow, they failed to walk into it.

Do you know what "elude" means ? Did anyone ever catch a bigfoot, EVER ? Did anyone ever catch a UFO spacecraft ?

I don't dismiss unidentified flying object sightings any more than I dismiss unidentified walking object sightings. I do not accept the interpretation that we're being visited by an alien civilization or two.

And yet, without any more evidence, you accept the interpretation that we're coexisting with walking furry man-apes ?

Went through all that with Correa. Let's not go through it again.

Why not ? It seems obvious that you're not applying the same standards of investigation to UFOs that you're applying to bigfoot. You have a clear emotional attachment to the latter, and it is clearly clouding your judgment, assuming you're a genuine believer.

Occam's razor.

Occam's Razor ? Let's talk about that one. No bodies, no DNA, no physical evidence whatsoever; hundreds of papers on the human ability to delude oneself; countless KNOWN hoaxes, and a few footprints. Tell me, Lu, what exactly would Occam say ?

I don't have to go through a bunch of mental gymnastics to explain away events I was close to.

I don't give a rat's behind HOW close you were to these events, because it shouldn't have anything to do with it.

I don't have to doubt the sanity of officers who were sworn to protect me or avoid having my oil changed because I might run into that trucker again who saw one near Snoqualmie.

Now you're just being weird.

Above all, I don't have to figure out how hoaxers would manage an average 5' stride without falling on their respective asses.

Of course not. All you have to do is believe.

 

[Belz...]

What if Bigfoot advocates are in a similar position? How can you be certain that the real footprints aren't simply a more complex class of hoax? Given the history of crop circles, and the similarity of the claims made about tracks, can anyone be sure?

Occam's Razor, apparently.

Why would it be difficult to space your fake footprints 5 feet apart? Or however far apart one wished?

Why would an honest debater claim it is difficult to do so?

Apparently, you should get some sleep, now, LTC. For some reason.