New settlement in East Jerusalem

[Mycroft]

you are certainly correct that it is not to my liking. Racism has that effect on me.
So only some of the "full and equal" citizens of israel are suitable stock to live there?

That's quite a jump from "jewish neighborhood" to "only some of the `full and equal' citizens of israel are suitable stock to live there."

Do you always make these flash judgements about other cultures with no evidence beyond your own suppositions?

 

[Mycroft]

It's just carrying out Sharon's strategy of dividing the West Bank into two, and isolating the Arab East, to create powerless Bantustaans. At the same time, a development that was mooted for West Jerusalem has fizzled out.

Evidence this was Sharon's strategy?

 

[webfusion]

you are certainly correct that it is not to my liking. Racism has that effect on me.
So only some of the "full and equal" citizens of israel are suitable stock to live there?

Dude, honestly, even I, a jewish secular Israeli citizen, wouldn't be suitable to live there!

 

[Thunder]

Eastern Jerusalem has been annexed by Israel and is part of the city's municipal boundaries. For Israel to be building "Jew-Only" neighborhoods or towns in any part of Israel is very troubling. Yes, I want Jerusalem to have a Jewish majority, but what does it say about the Jewish people if the only way we can ensure our Jewish majority in Jerusalem is by circumventing democratic and equal values?

Imagine if Latvia, or Lithuania, who both had mass numbers of ethnic Russians forced into their countries, decided to start building Latvian-only or Lithuanian-only towns and villages, inorder to "preserve the ethnic majority" thereby excluding Jews. The Jews would be up in arms. There is no good reason that this should be ok in Israel..but not in the Baltic states.

Thats, unless, Israel is "special".

 

[David Swidler]

As some one who lives in Jerusalem (and a religious person), I also never understood the religious zoning. I would also refuse to live in a monolithic neighborhood that developed on its own.

 

[Thunder]

developing on its own is one thing. but for the state (or any state for that matter) to build communities exclusively for one specific ethnic group is just pure racist. israel needs to treat all its citizens equally...or strip citizenship from the arabs. at least then no one could accuse israel of treating different citizens unequally.

 

[David Swidler]

There's kind of a chicken-vs.-egg problem when it comes to this thing. Sectarian thinking is so ingrained in the society that anyone considering a newly built neighborhood as a residence will think first in terms of its demographic "zoning." Without that piece of information, no one will buy. People want to know what "kind" of neighbors they'll have before they plunk down a few dozen grand for a home.

The barrier that Sharon started putting up is more than a security fence, and a social statement with implications far beyond the conflict with the Palestinians; it's emblematic of the 21st-century Israeli mindset, one in which everything must be pigeonholed, made discrete. Are you religious or secular? Jew or Arab? Ashkenazi or Mizrahi? New immigrant or descendant of veterans?

So much so, in fact, that even if "desegregation" were imposed by the government for a new housing development, it would probably doom the development. And no developer will want to invest in such a project.

 

[gtc]

Eastern Jerusalem has been annexed by Israel and is part of the city's municipal boundaries. For Israel to be building "Jew-Only" neighborhoods or towns in any part of Israel is very troubling. Yes, I want Jerusalem to have a Jewish majority, but what does it say about the Jewish people if the only way we can ensure our Jewish majority in Jerusalem is by circumventing democratic and equal values?

Imagine if Latvia, or Lithuania, who both had mass numbers of ethnic Russians forced into their countries, decided to start building Latvian-only or Lithuanian-only towns and villages, inorder to "preserve the ethnic majority" thereby excluding Jews. The Jews would be up in arms. There is no good reason that this should be ok in Israel..but not in the Baltic states.

Thats, unless, Israel is "special".

I believe there are still large minorities of Russians in the Baltic States and I am not sure if their status has been fully sorted out.

I think nationality based countries are wrong. However, splitting countries along ethnic or linguistic lines may be the best solution until both sides can live together. I would also much rather be an Arab living in Israel than a Jew living in Palestine.

 

[The Fool]

That's quite a jump from "jewish neighborhood" to "only some of the `full and equal' citizens of israel are suitable stock to live there."

Do you always make these flash judgements about other cultures with no evidence beyond your own suppositions?

yea whatever....simple things don't take long so you are welcome to show the flaws in my "flash judgement"....I always find it amusing when you present longwinded apologia for racist practices.

 

[webfusion]

There's kind of a chicken-vs.-egg problem when it comes to this thing. Sectarian thinking is so ingrained in the society that anyone considering a newly built neighborhood as a residence will think first in terms of its demographic "zoning." Without that piece of information, no one will buy. People want to know what "kind" of neighbors they'll have before they plunk down a few dozen grand for a home.

The barrier that Sharon started putting up is more than a security fence, and a social statement with implications far beyond the conflict with the Palestinians; it's emblematic of the 21st-century Israeli mindset, one in which everything must be pigeonholed, made discrete. Are you religious or secular? Jew or Arab? Ashkenazi or Mizrahi? New immigrant or descendant of veterans?

So much so, in fact, that even if "desegregation" were imposed by the government for a new housing development, it would probably doom the development. And no developer will want to invest in such a project.

Absolutely right on target. It is a social thing, not necessarily a racial thing. In Israel, it's just difficult to have "mixed" anything ---- just ask the Ethiopian Jews. They aren't looked upon as different really because they're black-skinned, they're just in a different social strata due to their background. These are a people who had lived without electricity, cars, running water, supermarkets, banking, etc. Then they came to a nation that simply was light-years beyond what they were familiar with and adapting has been a challenge.

As for the charge that the arabs cannot live where they want because of their "unsuitable stock" (a claim that T_F has made several times) --- I think you will find that in general the criteria for living in any Jerusalem neighborhood is not based on Arab/Jew but more commonly secular or orthodox Jew.

An opinion survey taken recently proves this point ----
Poll: 54% of Jerusalemites believe city becoming more ultra-Orthodox.

 

[Mycroft]

yea whatever....simple things don't take long so you are welcome to show the flaws in my "flash judgement"....

The standard is the one who makes the assertion is the one who provides evidence for it. You don't require others to prove the negative of your assertion.

...I always find it amusing when you present longwinded apologia for racist practices.

As I have never done this, this would be another lie spoken by you.

 

[corplinx]

You know, the orthodox have to get away from the Conservative jews by forming exclusive neigborhoods near their synagogue. They fear their children will see the Conservative jews _driving_ to synagogue and realize there is a better way.

 

[The Fool]

The standard is the one who makes the assertion is the one who provides evidence for it. You don't require others to prove the negative of your assertion.




As I have never done this, this would be another lie spoken by you.

OK.

Jewish neighborhoods are only open to Jews so it follows that Non jews can't live there.

As some of the Israeli citizens are not Jewish only some of the "full and equal" citizens of israel are suitable stock to live there.

Can you point out the bit that troubles you.

 

[The Fool]

Absolutely right on target. It is a social thing, not necessarily a racial thing. In Israel, it's just difficult to have "mixed" anything ---- just ask the Ethiopian Jews. They aren't looked upon as different really because they're black-skinned, they're just in a different social strata due to their background. These are a people who had lived without electricity, cars, running water, supermarkets, banking, etc. Then they came to a nation that simply was light-years beyond what they were familiar with and adapting has been a challenge.

As for the charge that the arabs cannot live where they want because of their "unsuitable stock" (a claim that T_F has made several times) --- I think you will find that in general the criteria for living in any Jerusalem neighborhood is not based on Arab/Jew but more commonly secular or orthodox Jew.

An opinion survey taken recently proves this point ----
Poll: 54% of Jerusalemites believe city becoming more ultra-Orthodox.

So you highlight the division within Jewish communities to distract from the elephant in the room? "No arabs"...but don't worry about that because it may be one of a number of Jewish sects that is saying "no Arabs"?

This makes me slightly bemused because I know the image of a "no Jews" sign is something repulsive and something that Israel was founded to help eliminate...but it seems that much tapdancing must now be done to rationalise a "no arabs" sign...its just plain sad.

 

[David Swidler]

You know, the orthodox have to get away from the Conservative jews by forming exclusive neigborhoods near their synagogue. They fear their children will see the Conservative jews _driving_ to synagogue and realize there is a better way.

Huh? Oh, and of course they must be too stupid to realize that the car they use the other six days of the week still exists on Saturday. Yes, that must be the explanation.

Seriously, there's barely a Conservative or Reform presence in Israel. Non-orthodox Israelis who do occasionally attend synagogue will, by and large, look at you funny if you suggest anything but orthodox. The others are regarded as not "serious" places for religion, even if the same people think of religion maybe three days a year.

 

[David Swidler]

So you highlight the division within Jewish communities to distract from the elephant in the room? "No arabs"...but don't worry about that because it may be one of a number of Jewish sects that is saying "no Arabs"?

This makes me slightly bemused because I know the image of a "no Jews" sign is something repulsive and something that Israel was founded to help eliminate...but it seems that much tapdancing must now be done to rationalise a "no arabs" sign...its just plain sad.

What makes you think the discrimination is one-way, TF? By the same token, a new Bedouin "settlement" was established in the Negev, reserved for the Bedouin (damned if I can remember the name offhand; Abu something. It'll come to me). For some reason I don't see people objecting to that.

 

[a_unique_person]

What makes you think the discrimination is one-way, TF? By the same token, a new Bedouin "settlement" was established in the Negev, reserved for the Bedouin (damned if I can remember the name offhand; Abu something. It'll come to me). For some reason I don't see people objecting to that.

Is this a settlement along the lines of a reservation for Indians? IIRC, the status of Bedouin is a little more complex than the case you make out. They are losing their nomadic way of life, and the settlements they are given would not be too desirable to live in any way, as basic facilities are inadequate.

 

[The Fool]

What makes you think the discrimination is one-way, TF? By the same token, a new Bedouin "settlement" was established in the Negev, reserved for the Bedouin (damned if I can remember the name offhand; Abu something. It'll come to me). For some reason I don't see people objecting to that.

I don't think the discrimination is one way David, I just don't see how its relevant. Jewish citizens of any nation should be able to live wherever they wish. As I said...I find "no Jews" signs repulsive, as repulsive as "no arab" signs.

 

[David Swidler]

Is this a settlement along the lines of a reservation for Indians?

No, it's actually an upgrade from the unrecognized (and thus unserved by utilities or official services) settlements the Bedouin have maintained for who knows how long. Squatting is a major issue with many Negev Bedouin, who refuse to recognize that the land they've been using "forever" is off limits.

IIRC, the status of Bedouin is a little more complex than the case you make out. They are losing their nomadic way of life, and the settlements they are given would not be too desirable to live in any way, as basic facilities are inadequate.

They ceased to have a nomadic way of life decades ago. Among other factors, their major problems stem from the fact that their tribal and societal structure have not successfully adopted to the transition to more "modern" life. And the lack of understanding they encounter at official levels doesn't help. Contrast that with the easy approval Jewish settlements on either side of the Green Line get to accommodate "natural growth" and you've got what we have now.

 

[webfusion]

There isn't a serious problem with arabs living anywhere they want in Israel, actually. Not many Israelis really pay much attention to arab neighbors moving in, and the issue isn't at all as described by T-F, except in the breach.

The problem being described in this thread is a specific housing development in Jerusalem, which is being designed and marketed to ultra-orthodox, and anyone who is not part of their lifestyle will not fit in. It matters not if they are secular jews, copts, muslims, christains, bah'ai, samaritans, whatever ---- if someone wants to live there and they're not strict orthodox jews, they won't feel welcome in a community that is exclusively orthodox.

There is no elephant in the room --- there is simply a total misunderstanding by T-F of the nature of Israeli housing developments. He seems to think that orthodox jews should not discriminate against anyone who is not orthodox, and the fact is, it just doesn't work like that. It's not a racism thing, it's a social/religious divide.

As I said...I find "no Jews" signs repulsive

How about an "orthodox jews only" sign? That is really what's happening here.
David Swidler described it very well already, and I find T-F's lack of comprehension of this point startling.