• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

New settlement in East Jerusalem

The Herald Tribune just ran an article which provides some insight to the issue of Arabs in Jerusalem.


  • Jerusalem grows ever less Jewish
    By Greg Myre
    Published: May 13, 2007

    JERUSALEM: Israel is facing a challenge it never expected when it captured East Jerusalem and reunited the city in the 1967 war: Each year, Jerusalem's population is becoming more Arab and less Jewish.

    For four decades, Israel has pushed to build and expand Jewish neighborhoods, while trying to restrict the growth in Arab parts of the city. Yet two trends are unchanged: Jews moving out of Jerusalem have outnumbered those moving in for 27 of the last 29 years. And the Palestinian growth rate has been high.

    In a 1967 census taken shortly after the war, the population of Jerusalem was 74 percent Jewish and 26 percent Arab. Today, the city is 66 percent Jewish and 34 percent Arab, with the gap narrowing by about one percentage point a year, according to the Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies.

SOURCE: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/13/asia/jerusalem.php?page=1
 
webfusion said:
How about an "orthodox jews only" sign? That is really what's happening here.
David Swidler described it very well already, and I find T-F's lack of comprehension of this point startling.
Click to expand...

But what about the accusation that orthodox Judaism is synonymous with Judaism in Israel? Wouldn't an Orthoxdox only sign be the same thing as Jews only since it was just explained to me that there is no tangible Reformed/Conservative presence?
 
corplinx said:
But what about the accusation that orthodox Judaism is synonymous with Judaism in Israel? Wouldn't an Orthoxdox only sign be the same thing as Jews only since it was just explained to me that there is no tangible Reformed/Conservative presence?
Click to expand...


I'm not sure I understand the question.
Yes, obviously a sign saying "Orthodox Only" would indeed be saying "Jews Only" and no arabs would live there. Neither would any other Israeli who was not an Orthodox Jew, and that would eliminate a vast spectrum of people in Israel, especially the jews who are secular (the majority of Israeli jews are simply non-affiliated with any religious stream).

Look, Israel does make an effort to provide state assistance to jews, and provides a lot less to the arabs, in jerusalem and elsewhere. However, it is not a violation of the civil rights of those who can't live in these housing projects. It is an inherent social imbalance that Israel has systematically, and it stretches beyond just the arabs ----- and Orthodox-jews-only housing tracts are a "market force" more than anything else.
 
webfusion said:
There isn't a serious problem with arabs living anywhere they want in Israel, actually. Not many Israelis really pay much attention to arab neighbors moving in, and the issue isn't at all as described by T-F, except in the breach.
Click to expand...
I point out "jews only" housing areas....I know that you don't think its a serious problem but that is again irrelevant. How serious you thin k it is doesn't really matter.


The problem being described in this thread is a specific housing development in Jerusalem, which is being designed and marketed to ultra-orthodox, and anyone who is not part of their lifestyle will not fit in. It matters not if they are secular jews, copts, muslims, christains, bah'ai, samaritans, whatever ---- if someone wants to live there and they're not strict orthodox jews, they won't feel welcome in a community that is exclusively orthodox.

No, the problem is "jews only" zones, are you claiming this is the only one??


There is no elephant in the room --- there is simply a total misunderstanding by T-F of the nature of Israeli housing developments. He seems to think that orthodox jews should not discriminate against anyone who is not orthodox, and the fact is, it just doesn't work like that. It's not a racism thing, it's a social/religious divide.
Click to expand...
They should not be able to exclude others on the basis of race...Not jewish=unacceptable. because they also choose (in some cases) to exclude other groups makes not one bit of difference. No blacks on the bus is racism even if you say its ok because some whites are not allowed on either.

If Catholics said no blacks or protestants can live in our town...racist or not?



How about an "orthodox jews only" sign? That is really what's happening here.
David Swidler described it very well already, and I find T-F's lack of comprehension of this point startling.
Click to expand...

simply cutting through the venere of confusion that must be added to blatantly racist practices to allow them to be forgiven.

I find it hard to sympathise with people who are happy to rationalise "no jews" signs or thier equivalent.
 
Last edited:
So its not discrimination against jews (putting them on a reservation). Its not discriminating against non-jews (an exclusive community).

This doesn't pass the smell test somehow.
 
TF,

Do you have a problem with the retirement lifestyle villages designed for and exclusively marketed at the over-50s in Australia?
 
T-F sums things up:
No, the problem is "jews only" zones, are you claiming this is the only one??
Click to expand...

It's a problem in your own mind only.

In various places, Jews prefer to live together with other jews, and that's how it is. Throughout most of Israel, there is not any restriction regarding arabs living where they please.

Haifa, for instance.
Tel Aviv, for instance.
Be'er Sheva, for instance.
Most of Jerusalem, for instance.

Meanwhile, the arabs want their own "arab city" --
http://www.jerusalemites.org/News In English/english/2007/febraury/14.htm
 
gtc said:
I suspect so.
Click to expand...
So do I. And I suspect they allow arabs too....so I really don't see tha comparison. But then again I also recently tried to get into an under 18 dance and was arrested..... :)
 
webfusion said:
T-F sums things up:

It's a problem in your own mind only.

In various places, Jews prefer to live together with other jews, and that's how it is. Throughout most of Israel, there is not any restriction regarding arabs living where they please.

Haifa, for instance.
Tel Aviv, for instance.
Be'er Sheva, for instance.
Most of Jerusalem, for instance.

Meanwhile, the arabs want their own "arab city" --
http://www.jerusalemites.org/News In English/english/2007/febraury/14.htm
Click to expand...

In the end web...you are comfortable with this. It saddens me but I'm not sure what can be done about it. Maybe we could start up a no jews forum....you know that non-jews may prefer to discuss issues together with other non-jews... you jews would have hundreds of other forums you could post in.....nothing racist of course, it would just be a cultural thing.
 
webfusion said:
T-F sums things up:

Meanwhile, the arabs want their own "arab city" --
http://www.jerusalemites.org/News In English/english/2007/febraury/14.htm
Click to expand...
meanwhile "the arabs" want no such thing...

The bill stipulates that the town will be founded with a residential and commercial area, with advanced civil services to accommodate the Arab population. Also, the city would be open to residence for all citizens of Israel without acceptance or membership committee approval needed.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...ontrassID=1&subContrassID=0&sbSubContrassID=0

no approval or acceptance needed, open to all.

Actually....I'm curious, why don't you stand up to the racists and simply tell them they have no right to do it?
 
There is no point to 'standing up to the racists' because there is no racism involved. In the cultural mix of Israel, arab cities (Um-El-Faham, for example) don't have any reason for an "acceptance committee" because no jews would choose to buy a home there in the first place.

Jerusalem is a polyglot of cultures and religions, and despite some neighborhoods having an orthodox jewish character, and others having a distinctive and exclusive "no-jews" de-facto policy (the Moslem quarter of the Old City) the overall picture is one of both jews and arabs living together.

What can be done? Well, for starters, the arabs have some blame in this.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...h Came First- Terrorism or Occupation - Major
 
webfusion said:
There is no point to 'standing up to the racists' because there is no racism involved.
Click to expand...
Absolutely unbeleavable. banning citizens from living in parts of thier own country on the basis of race is not racism? what of my idea of a "no jews" section of the forum? that wouldn't be racist either would it?
 
The Fool said:
Absolutely unbeleavable. banning citizens from living in parts of thier own country on the basis of race is not racism?
Click to expand...

It appears the neither webfusion nor The Fool have read the articles cited by webfusion.

In Qa'dan the Court held that the state is prohibited from allocating "state land" based on national belonging or using "national institutions" such as the Jewish Agency to discriminate on its behalf. The Qa'dan case involved the right of an Arab family -- citizens of Israel -- to live in the Jewish Agency-established community of Katzir, which was built on "state land."​
-Article

In Israel it is apparently illegal for the State to discriminate on the basis of ethnicity. So if there are any areas that are only for Jews, it must be because the owners of the property sell only to Jews on a voluntary basis.

In the specific Ebriq case, the Israel Supreme Court is apparently still considering the arguments of both sides. The article claims that the evidence is clear that the plaintiffs were turned down solely because of their ethnicity, but we have no way of knowing that. The article did not set forth the Israel Land Authority's position, or the decisions of any interim courts that may have rendered decisions prior to it reaching the Israeli Supreme Court.

Now, I'm only making conclusions based on the articles provided. If anybody has contrary facts, I'd love to see the link.
 
Last edited:
Marksman

The land agency is not allowed to lease to anyone other than someone who is Jewish. State sponsored racism. There is also the process of declaring land that was previously Arab land, state land, then it can be handed over to the ILA.
 
The Fool said:
Absolutely unbeleavable. banning citizens from living in parts of thier own country on the basis of race is not racism? what of my idea of a "no jews" section of the forum? that wouldn't be racist either would it?
Click to expand...

The restrictions in these so-called Haredi communities are on the basis of religion. Not race.
I already explained that non-orthodox secular jews are also unwelcome.

It would be as if you set up a section of the forum for those jews who wear a kippa (yarmulka) only and all others are kept out. That is the correct analogy.


a_u_p, your claim about the ILA seems to be false. You are welcome to drag in whatever evidence in support and give us a chance to debunk it properly.
http://www.stoptheism.com/Default.asp?M=1&T=209
In Avitan v. Israel Land Administration (HC 528/88) the High Court
ruled that ILA discrimination against the Jewish citizen Avitan was justified as
affirmative action for Bedouin citizens. (Legal Status of the Arabs in Israel,
p. 81)
 
Webfusion- I agree that most jews would not want to live in an arab communitee in Israel. But they should have the right to...and there should be no legal regulations that would hamper a Jew living in an Arab communitee in any way. The same is with Arabs. If Israel is really a democracy, there will be no formal ethnic or religous rules as to where one ethnicity can and can't live.

The day that Israel formalizes ethnic discrimination is the day it truly becomes an apartheid state.
 
My cousin is a major developer for this project:

http://barbarylanesenior.com/

Check it out. It is housing exclusively for the LGBT community in the Bay area.
(Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender)

Is this unfair to heterosexuals? I think not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom