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Non-Homeopathic Belladonna

Perhaps we cannot ever be certain of the details of the Amie Dietrich case, but assuming that what has been documented is correct and, in the absence of a documented case study in the medical literature which mimics it, I wonder if anyone can come up with a reasonable hypothetical case history that mimics that of Amie Dietrich?

Perhaps Rodney could first provide a reasonably detailed summary of her case.
According to -- http://www.are-cayce.com/edgar-cayce2.html --

"One of the earliest readings was for a five-year-old girl, named Aime Dietrich, who had been seriously ill for three years. At the age of two, after an attack of influenza, which doctors then called the grippe, her mind had stopped developing. Since that time her tiny body had been racked with convulsions. Her mind was nearly a blank and, though doctors and specialists had been consulted, she had only gotten worse instead of better. In order to see if he could be of assistance, Cayce put himself to sleep while Layne conducted the reading and wrote down everything that was said. While in the sleep state Cayce stated that Aime's real problem had actually begun a few days before catching the grippe. Apparently, she had fallen and injured her spine while getting down from a carriage. According to the reading, because of the trauma the influenza germs had settled in her spine and the convulsions had begun. Aime's mother verified the accident.

"To cure the condition, Edgar Cayce recommended some osteopathic adjustments that were to be carried out by Layne. Layne made the adjustments on the little girl's spine and got a check reading. The sleeping Cayce told Layne he had made the adjustments incorrectly and provided further instructions. After several attempts, Layne was able to carry out the suggestions to the exact specifications of the sleeping photographer. Several days later, Aime recognized a doll she had played with before getting sick and called it by name. As the weeks passed, her mind recognized other things as well, she suddenly knew her parents, and finally the convulsions stopped completely. Within three months, Aime's mind was able to catch up where it had left off, and she became a normal, healthy, five-year-old girl."

Professor Dietrich's affidavit confirms a good deal of this account, although there are some differences, such as the fact that he says Aime was six when she was cured.
 
Cayce's seemingly strange notion that "psoriasis affects the lymph circulation" was confirmed in the mid-1980s.
In reading 943-17, given January 21, 1932, Cayce stated: "As is known, psoriasis is - itself - an infectious condition that affects the emunctory and lymph circulation, and causes an improper coordination of the eliminating forces of the system, as in this body."
Emphasis mine.

It's not much of a prediction if it was known at the time. Or was Cayce wrong about that as well?
 
Thanks for the reference. That's a fascinating case, although still not the same as the Aime Dietrich case. The conclusion here is that "the disappearance of intractable epileptic seizures following acute viral infections might be related to the inflammatory or immunologic processes associated with viral infections." In his affidavit, Aime's father does not report that Aime was experiencing a new medical problem at the time Cayce prescribed osteopathic adjustments for her.
 
So has it been confirmed that it is infectious?
You're beating a dead horse. "Infectious" may have been a slip of the tongue, or Cayce might have been using it in a different sense than the word is used today.
 
You're beating a dead horse. "Infectious" may have been a slip of the tongue...

Perhaps "lymph circulation" was a slip of the tongue. Perhaps "osteopathic adjustments" was a slip of the tongue. Perhaps "almonds" was a slip of the tongue.

...or Cayce might have been using it in a different sense than the word is used today.


Or perhaps Cayce may have been using all of the words he used in "a different sense" than they are used today. If you assume that he didn't mean what he said you can retrofit anything to his pronouncements.
 
You're beating a dead horse. "Infectious" may have been a slip of the tongue, or Cayce might have been using it in a different sense than the word is used today.


Perhaps when Cayce appeared to go into a trance he was just pretending.

Perhaps when he said "those who would eat two to three almonds each day need never fear cancer" he actually meant "I am a total fraud and I'm just making all this stuff up".
 
Thanks for the reference. That's a fascinating case, although still not the same as the Aime Dietrich case. The conclusion here is that "the disappearance of intractable epileptic seizures following acute viral infections might be related to the inflammatory or immunologic processes associated with viral infections." In his affidavit, Aime's father does not report that Aime was experiencing a new medical problem at the time Cayce prescribed osteopathic adjustments for her.

His description also fits with that of a relatively acute problem superimposed upon a longstanding, gradually progressive condition. The reported diagnoses provided by the doctors also fit with that scenario. Then again, the description also fits with several quite different case-reports. I merely choose to link to the first one.

However, it does illustrate the pointlessness of you asking for case reports. Why would the details of any particular case (of a nature that would even get it published in the first place) exactly coincide with the details that have been made up for the Dietrich case? Especially since with multiple retellings there are now multiple versions of the story, and you are inclined to make any suggestions not fit, so as to preserve your amazement - something that is easy to accomplish with such scanty details available (they don't force any particular constraints). Rather than cases, it is more useful to know about various diseases, and from there determine what possibilities (if any) are excluded based on a more thorough understanding than can be gleaned from a single (or few) case(s).

Linda
 
Thanks for the reference. That's a fascinating case...


Actually, Rodney, I thought you'd be completely floored by that case report. The similarities are absolutely amazing in my opinion. I was really keen to read your response.

...although still not the same as the Aime Dietrich case. The conclusion here is that "the disappearance of intractable epileptic seizures following acute viral infections might be related to the inflammatory or immunologic processes associated with viral infections." In his affidavit, Aime's father does not report that Aime was experiencing a new medical problem at the time Cayce prescribed osteopathic adjustments for her.


How many viral infections does a 2 to 6 year old child have. Many have up to one a month. Maybe he didn't bother reporting any viral infections she might have had. After all, you wouldn't have expected him to think that a viral infection could possibly be the cause of her other illness resolving. Would you, Rodney, before you read that case?
 
Why would the details of any particular case...exactly coincide with the details that have been made up for the Dietrich case? Especially since with multiple retellings there are now multiple versions of the story, and you are inclined to make any suggestions not fit, so as to preserve your amazement - something that is easy to accomplish with such scanty details available (they don't force any particular constraints).


I just thought that perhaps if Rodney could read similar case histories to Amie's and see how they resolved spontaneously (or as a result of known mechanisms as in the case you linked to), he might be less inclined to believe absolutely that, in Amie's case, the resolution was achieved by the spinal adjustments recommended by Cayce whilst in a trance.
 

Yeah, yeah... Try to explain this with medical knowledge:

Friar Galvao is remembered for producing Latin prayers written on tiny balls of paper that, when swallowed, had the apparent effect of curing a range of ailments.

After taking one of these pills, Ms Almeida, who had a uterine malformation that should have made it impossible for her to carry a child for more than four months, gave birth to Enzo.

Friar Galvao is also certified by the Church as healing a four-year-old girl said to have been considered incurable by doctors.

:D
 
Actually, Rodney, I thought you'd be completely floored by that case report. The similarities are absolutely amazing in my opinion. I was really keen to read your response.
Let's compare the two cases: According to her father's affidavit, Aime Dietrich "was perfectly strong and healthy until Feb. 1899, when she had an attack of La Grippe, followed by two violent convulsions, each of twenty minutes duration." Aime was 2 at that time. She was treated by four doctors, but by age 6, she was "getting worse, had as many as twenty convulsions in one day, her mind was a blank, all reasoning power was entirely gone." She was then taken to a fifth doctor, who "told us that nothing could be done, except to give her good care, as her case was hopeless and she would die soon in one of these attacks."

In the case that Linda linked to, a 5-month old female "developed intractable brief tonic spasms" . . The seizures were uncontrollable with conventional therapy . . . At the age of three years, the intractable seizures disappeared after a febrile rash illness due to human herpesvirus 7 (HHV-7) infection, without changes in anti-epileptic drugs."

So, in Aime's case, her seizures began after she contracted the flu. While the affidavit does not say so, "An American Prophet" says that Aime "had received an injury to her spine before becoming sick." Thus, her seizures seemed to be related to those major events in her young life. Further, Aime later became severely developmentally-impaired, and her case was pronounced hopeless. By contrast, in the other case, it would appear that there was no obvious precipitating event for the seizures, the child did not become developmentally delayed, and the case was never thought to be hopeless.

How many viral infections does a 2 to 6 year old child have. Many have up to one a month. Maybe he didn't bother reporting any viral infections she might have had. After all, you wouldn't have expected him to think that a viral infection could possibly be the cause of her other illness resolving. Would you, Rodney, before you read that case?
No, but I still no evidence that a viral infection can resolve developmental delays. Further, under your scenario, Cayce has got to be amazingly lucky. Five doctors fail to help Aime at all, with the fifth pronouncing her case hopeless. Cayce is then called in, prescribes some osteopathic adjustments, and by a coincidence that would stagger even Carl Jung, Aime gets better not because of those adjustments, but because she actually simultaneously contracted an unreported viral infection. Does that scenario make sense to you?
 
Let's compare the two cases: According to her father's affidavit, Aime Dietrich "was perfectly strong and healthy until Feb. 1899, when she had an attack of La Grippe, followed by two violent convulsions, each of twenty minutes duration." Aime was 2 at that time. She was treated by four doctors, but by age 6, she was "getting worse, had as many as twenty convulsions in one day, her mind was a blank, all reasoning power was entirely gone." She was then taken to a fifth doctor, who "told us that nothing could be done, except to give her good care, as her case was hopeless and she would die soon in one of these attacks."

In the case that Linda linked to, a 5-month old female "developed intractable brief tonic spasms" . . The seizures were uncontrollable with conventional therapy . . . At the age of three years, the intractable seizures disappeared after a febrile rash illness due to human herpesvirus 7 (HHV-7) infection, without changes in anti-epileptic drugs."

So, in Aime's case, her seizures began after she contracted the flu. While the affidavit does not say so, "An American Prophet" says that Aime "had received an injury to her spine before becoming sick." Thus, her seizures seemed to be related to those major events in her young life. Further, Aime later became severely developmentally-impaired, and her case was pronounced hopeless. By contrast, in the other case, it would appear that there was no obvious precipitating event for the seizures, the child did not become developmentally delayed, and the case was never thought to be hopeless.


But some of Dietrich's account may have been slips of the tongue, or Dietrich might have been using words in a different sense than the words are used today. See here for someone who feels this could apply to statements significantly more recent than Dietrich's affidavit, for example.
 
Well, Rodney, if you are determined to believe that Amie's case had features that can only be explained by Cayce going into a trance and unknowingly giving an osteopath the treatment for curing her, then I guess you are never going to believe otherwise.

The thing is that every person is probably unique in the way a particular ilness manifests itself, progresses, and resolves (or leads to death). We cannot be obsessive about the exact details about a particular case. Don't you agree? For example, the same virus might lay me up for five days with headache, fever and sore throat, but cause you a minor inconvenient cough. For someone else it might prove fatal. That was what Linda meant when she said:

Rather than cases, it is more useful to know about various diseases, and from there determine what possibilities...are excluded based on a more thorough understanding than can be gleaned from a single...case.
 
So, in Aime's case, her seizures began after she contracted the flu. While the affidavit does not say so, "An American Prophet" says that Aime "had received an injury to her spine before becoming sick." Thus, her seizures seemed to be related to those major events in her young life. Further, Aime later became severely developmentally-impaired, and her case was pronounced hopeless. By contrast, in the other case, it would appear that there was no obvious precipitating event for the seizures, the child did not become developmentally delayed, and the case was never thought to be hopeless.

Developmental delay is a feature of West Syndrome and resistance to treatment gives a poor prognosis (i.e. this case would be considered otherwise hopeless).

No, but I still no evidence that a viral infection can resolve developmental delays.

The case-report represented a viral infection resolving developmental delay, although whether or not it does so in that circumstance depends upon the underlying cause of the developmental delay (e.g. primary or secondary).

Please note that the case-report was not adding to the understanding that West Syndrome or other types of epilepsy have spontaneously resolved after various viral infections, but rather adding to the understanding of HHV-7 infection in humans.

Further, under your scenario, Cayce has got to be amazingly lucky. Five doctors fail to help Aime at all, with the fifth pronouncing her case hopeless. Cayce is then called in, prescribes some osteopathic adjustments, and by a coincidence that would stagger even Carl Jung, Aime gets better not because of those adjustments, but because she actually simultaneously contracted an unreported viral infection. Does that scenario make sense to you?

It would be an amazing coincidence. And as I was attempting to get at earlier, that alone doesn't mean anything, since it may be the only reason that it was Cayce that was remembered 100 years later, rather than some other medium. With thousands of opportunities for medium intervention to coincide with spontaneous recovery, occasionally it will happen. And it is the medium that happens to be in that lucky situation that will subsequently be hailed as having real powers. And the proof of those real powers? That it was unlikely for spontaneous recovery to coincide with the medium's intervention if that particular situation is assumed a priori. Of course, everybody conveniently forgets that they have violated one of the assumptions of their hypothesis testing, since the situation was not, in fact, assumed a priori. And how many readings did Cayce give? Tens of thousands? He should have been swimming in amazing coincidences, even without taking the strong confirmation and attribution biases into effect.

However, it may not even be an amazing coincidence, as the events could easily be confounded and not independent. Viral infections usually make epilepsy worse, so even if eventual resolution of the viral infection leads to eventual resolution of the seizures, it would be expected that they could get worse before they get better. And it was that Aime was "getting worse" that led to calling in Cayce - i.e. the same thing that could have led to Aime's worsening and then subsequent resolution was the same thing that led to the desparate attempt to try anything.

And that a viral infection wasn't reported by Dietrich may have been that it was unnoticed or that Dietrich didn't understand the significance of what the doctor said. For example, the majority of HHV-7 infections seem to be asymptomatic or sub-clinical. Which is why a report of an acute manifestation of HHV-7 is worth a case-report. A sub-clinical infection (for many viruses) can smoulder for months, and recovery certainly fits with with the time course reported in the affadavit.

However, I realize that none of this necessarily applies to Cayce, since we simply to not have enough information on anything that has been claimed to say "this is what must have happened." All we can say is "this is what could have happened." And the scientific approach is to assume a naturalistic explanation exists (even if currently undetermined) until proven otherwise, mostly because this assumption has lead to amazing progress and because no exceptions have yet been discovered. Your approach seems to be to assume a supernaturalistic explanation when encountering the unknown until proven otherwise; an assumption that leads to stagnation and continual exceptions.

Linda
 
But some of Dietrich's account may have been slips of the tongue, or Dietrich might have been using words in a different sense than the words are used today. See here for someone who feels this could apply to statements significantly more recent than Dietrich's affidavit, for example.
By your logic, since Linda in post #219 of this thread said "nineteenth century" when she meant "twentieth century" nothing else she has ever said can offset this egregious error. Again, to give the context of what Cayce said on January 21, 1932: "As is known, psoriasis is - itself - an infectious condition that affects the emunctory and lymph circulation, and causes an improper coordination of the eliminating forces of the system, as in this body." He never said in any reading that psoriasis can be spread from person to person.
 
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By your logic, since Linda in post #219 of this thread said "nineteenth century" when she meant "twentieth century" nothing else she has ever said can offset this egregious error. Again, to give the context of what Cayce said on January 21, 1932: "As is known, psoriasis is - itself - an infectious condition that affects the emunctory and lymph circulation, and causes an improper coordination of the eliminating forces of the system, as in this body." He never said in any reading that psoriasis can be spread from person to person.

Cayce's description of Psoriasis is like rubber-sheet topology. Through judicious pulling and stretching, it can be made to fit around what we now know about Psoriasis. But it could just as easily* fit a variety of shapes, and in the absence of knowledge, assumes a nondescript form resembling a blob.

Also, your continued reference to a period in my life I'd rather put behind me, wounds deeply. You don't want to make a mother cry on Mothers' Day, do you?

Linda

*That's a lie. It would far more easily fit around incomplete or misshapen descriptions of Psoriasis.
 

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