There is no debate on 9/11...

Fine I'll drop the crazy old man, geez.
I'll find a source for the protocols. I'm sure they don't go over 10 min's before notifying NEADS. That's undebatable right?
Wrong, you present zero facts for some protocols.

A classic pre 9/11 unknown plane no longer under control by the pilots or taking to FAA/ATC is Payne Stewart's plane. It took 70 to 80 minutes to intercept. They also did not know what was wrong until the AF looked and saw a plane with the windows iced over from the inside after the pilots and passengers had fallen asleep due to hypoxia.

NORAD and the FAA job was not to shoot down civilians, they were not ready for terrorist cheating and what they did on 9/11. You need to have a goal for this, and you must research before you start making up conclusions and stuff about 9/11.

There is no funny stuff at NORAD or the FAA on 9/11. The best you can do is find errors in memory or timelines. There were no armed fighters at Andrews AFB. There are only lies and false information about NORAD and the FAA on the topic of 9/11 from the liars know as "9/11 truth".
 
You're telling me that you're fine with no officials from either the FAA nor NORAD being held accountable from their mistakes.

What mistakes did NORAD make? Can you be specific as possible?

ETA: My question has already been answered.
 
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Fine I'll drop the crazy old man, geez.
I'll find a source for the protocols. I'm sure they don't go over 10 min's before notifying NEADS. That's undebatable right?
Until you "find a source for the protocols", that's a bit debateable.

However, if you look at the link I gave you, you'll see that NEADS was informed ELEVEN minutes after FAA Comand and Control.

ELEVEN minutes!!! OMG SHILLS!!!
 
I could not find any trustworthy paper that describes the hijacking protocols for the FAA on 9/11...
So I'll retract all I said about it as a fact. I'm sorry.

Though the claim is not false, it sure can't be proven. So, sorry.

I do however still believe (arg. from incredulity, yah) that the FAA controlers screwed up bigtime in keeping track of the hijacked planes, even though they had transponders turned off and got off-radar at some points. Blame me for listening to Hordon. But at this point in time I don't trust the 9/11 Commission anymore, so I don't believe their word either. My belief comes from the understanding that air controllers are usually very impeccable people, and whoever was responsible for keeping track of the planes, either had their tracking capabilities sabotaged, or simply failed to comply with their duty.

I don't trust the 9/11 Commission Report since they only blame errors in communication and on the "surprise" factor of the attacks. I personally don't believe such half-assed excuse should be accepted at face value when it could very well be a cover-up of ignorance...

I can't trust Hordon since you've pointed out he's a crazy nut. I do agree with him however that the FAA and NORAD have a much better control over the US airspace than they claimed to have in the commission hearings. It is of my opinion only, and you don't have to agree on this one necessarily, that there should have been more investigations and more interviews into specific air controller officers that were on track of the planes, get their own timelines, corroborate testimonies, etc. Not just take the first answer they get and stick with it.

I'm sorry for taking that as a fact though. On that particular issue. The rest still stands, but I couldn't care less anymore. Most of you won't ever agree with me on any issue anyway.

At least we agree that there's no debate.
You SHOULD support a new investigation, but meh, what can I say. Rewind, Repeat, Rewind, Repeat...
 
I could not find any trustworthy paper that describes the hijacking protocols for the FAA on 9/11...
So I'll retract all I said about it as a fact. I'm sorry.

Though the claim is not false, it sure can't be proven. So, sorry.

I do however still believe (arg. from incredulity, yah) that the FAA controlers screwed up bigtime in keeping track of the hijacked planes, even though they had transponders turned off and got off-radar at some points. Blame me for listening to Hordon. But at this point in time I don't trust the 9/11 Commission anymore, so I don't believe their word either. My belief comes from the understanding that air controllers are usually very impeccable people, and whoever was responsible for keeping track of the planes, either had their tracking capabilities sabotaged, or simply failed to comply with their duty.

I don't trust the 9/11 Commission Report since they only blame errors in communication and on the "surprise" factor of the attacks. I personally don't believe such half-assed excuse should be accepted at face value when it could very well be a cover-up of ignorance...

I can't trust Hordon since you've pointed out he's a crazy nut. I do agree with him however that the FAA and NORAD have a much better control over the US airspace than they claimed to have in the commission hearings. It is of my opinion only, and you don't have to agree on this one necessarily, that there should have been more investigations and more interviews into specific air controller officers that were on track of the planes, get their own timelines, corroborate testimonies, etc. Not just take the first answer they get and stick with it.

I'm sorry for taking that as a fact though. On that particular issue. The rest still stands, but I couldn't care less anymore. Most of you won't ever agree with me on any issue anyway.

At least we agree that there's no debate.
You SHOULD support a new investigation, but meh, what can I say. Rewind, Repeat, Rewind, Repeat...
Horton has not worked since the 80s, get another controller. I was working in the Air Force on 9/11. No one stood down. The military was not stood down. In fact the military has people who would have done something if they only knew it was coming. The FAA did a good job on 9/11 deciding to ground all the planes and telling all pilots not to allow anyone to breach the cockpit.

You must also remember the FAA does control the airspace but it is just like road signs and police control the roads. Have you ever run a stop sign, or a light, or go over the speed limit. The FAA can see you break rules but they are hours away from doing something about it.

Now if a plane is Hijacked or threatened you may have a fighter escort in a few minutes. Gravy has done a lot of research, he can produce the real rules about the FAA, NORAD and things associated with 9/11 if you search his posts. He could correct my rants because he has the book. That being said, how many FAA, NORAD, and those involved on 9/11 knew the book answer. Sometimes what is buried in the books and what happens for real are two different animals.

As for your not believing the suprise factor, you could figure that one out yourself. Who is the first people who really knew what the terrorist were doing on 9/11? Flight 93 passengers. What did they do? The attacked the terrorists. How long does it take america to wake up under a surprise attack from terrorist? Look up the first impact at the WTC and when Flight 93 passengers attacked the terrorist.

Can you look up that time? was it just over an hour? That is not too bad considering the people on flight 93 only had a little time to plan and act. You must get realistic on your thinking about 9/11 and how things work.

Until you read all the items about 9/11, not truther junk, and understand them how can you ask for a new investigation? What is wrong with all the stuff about 9/11, non truther stuff? You did not even know the truther controller had not worked for over 20 years.

How can you debate 9/11 when the truthers do not even have the facts about their own information or the people who make up the lies about 9/11?
 
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Well he says that in the first hour of 9/11 he was sure something was wrong..


I'm sure he was. Most people were sure something was wrong by 09:03. Maybe he was just slow.




that procedures were most likely not followed

That's right, they weren't, thankfully.



that FAA has knowledge of everything that takes off and land in the country


Really? And how do they manage that? What do you mean by "knowledge"? What if I'm a farmer with a helicopter, and I just take off from my paddock one morning. Does the FAA know? How?



That they HAVe to report any unusual behavior to NEADS under 5 minutes and so...
this more recent interview is here,

Indeed, and what constitutes "unusual behavior"?

-Gumboot
 
I know that.
Wait, I DIDNT know that.
But he's still an ex-controller...
I don't know of any other source from where we can find hijacking protocols for the FAA.. not an easy one that is.
You folks love getting your way out with arguments from incredulity and ad-hominem..
well guess what, I LIKE THAT TOO, HAHA.
Um, ok that was pointless.
Anyway, let me hear that thing then I'll give you something ¬¬



You may be interested to read FAA Order 7610.4J: Special Military Operations which was in effect on 9/11.

7-1-2. REQUESTS FOR SERVICE

The escort service will be requested by the FAA hijack coordinator by direct contact with the National Military Command Center (NMCC). Normally, NORAD escort aircraft will take the required action. However, for the purpose of these procedures, the term "escort aircraft" applies to any military aircraft assigned to the escort mission. When the military can provide escort aircraft, the NMCC will advise the FAA hijack coordinator the identification and location of the squadron tasked to provide escort aircraft. NMCC will then authorize direct coordination between FAA and the designated military unit. When a NORAD resource is tasked, FAA will coordinate through the appropriate SOCC/ROCC.

It would actually be a violation of procedure for the ARTCC to communicate directly with NEADS, which is what happened on 9/11.

-Gumboot
 
I could not find any trustworthy paper that describes the hijacking protocols for the FAA on 9/11...
So I'll retract all I said about it as a fact. I'm sorry.

Though the claim is not false, it sure can't be proven. So, sorry.


Fortunately for you, I do know what the FAA's protocol was on 9/11.

You can read the relevant chapter here or here.

I also have a powerpoint presentation which summarises protocol and what happened on 9/11, which can be downloaded by this direct link or can be view in html here. Given the high graphic content, I advise downloaded it as the html misses all of this.

The pertinent facts to consider are as follows:

1) NORADs area of responsibility is a narrow band of airspace off the US coastline called the Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) which acts as a sort of "buffer" between the US and the rest of the world.

2) Aircraft passing through the ADIZ have to follow strict protocol and file flight paths with the FAA, or face NORAD interception.

3) Due to defense cutbacks at the end of the cold war, on 9/11 NORAD CONUS Region had only 7 pairs of fighters on alert duty. Two of these pairs were allocated to the North East Air Defense Sector (NEADS).

4) Standing hijack protocol at the time was based on a number of assumptions:
a) Hijacked aircraft would originate overseas.
b) Hijack would be confirmed by aircraft squawking 7500 code
c) Hijacked aircraft would remain in transponder contact
d) Hijacked aircraft would be landed at an airport where negotiations would take place

By now the problems with this system should be self evident. However, let's go over the protocol.

The FAA has three levels of ATC.

1) Airport Traffic Control Towers (ATCT)
2) Terminal Radar Approach Control Facilities (TRACON)
3) Air Route Traffic Control Centers (ARTCC)

The first two of these deal with landing and taking off, so we'll put those aside and focus on the ARTCCs.

The FAA has twenty-three ARTCCs spread across the country, which are coordinated by a National Air Traffic Control Center in Herndon, Virginia.

The FAA Headquarters is located in Washington DC.

On the military side of things, at the top we have the National Military Command Center (NMCC) which is located in The Pentagon.

Currently, NORAD is collected under one of the Unified Combatant Commands - NORTHCOM, which was created after 9/11.

However back in 2001 NORAD was under a different command structure (it's still under the same organisational structure, however NORTHCOM directs operations).

NORAD units are supplied by the 1st Air Force, an Air National Guard unit under the Air Combat Command, one of ten Major Commands that answers directly to HQ USAF.

NORAD itself - a joint US/Canadian operation - is divided into three regions - Alaska Region, Canada Region, and Continental US Region. CONUS is the region that's relevant to 9/11. CONUS is further divided into three Air Defense Sectors - North East (NEADS), South East (SEADS), and West (WADS).

Each ADS has a command center and control over a number of fighters. NEADS had two pairs of fighters under its authority - two F-16's at Langley AFB and two F-15s at Otis ANGB.

The key thing to note here is that nothing would be done about a hijacking until it was confirmed - the most common method being for the pilots to change their transponder to 7500 - an agreed hijack code.

Obviously in normal circumstances this is fine - hijackers need the pilots to fly the plane, and probably aren't going to pick up on a code quickly being coded in.

In the event of a confirmed hijacking, the controller in question would notify his supervisor at the ARTCC, who would pass it up to the National ATC at Herndon.

The decision to request military assistance would be made at Herndon, at which point the FAA Hijack Coordinator (located at FAA Headquarters in Washington, DC) would be notified.

The Hijack Coordinator would communicate the request to the NMCC who would either approve it or deny it (although there's not really any reason to deny it).

From there an order would be issued to USAF HQ, through to Air Combat Command to HQ NORAD at Cheyenne Mountain, Colorado Springs, and from there to CONUS and finally Colonel Marr in the Battle Cab at NEADS. He'd inform Major Nasypany, the Mission Crew Commander, who would in turn direct the various elements involved in the mission (ID Techs, etc) including the Weapons Team, led by Major Fox. Major Fox's team handles the fighters, so they contact operations at the air base, who in turn pass these orders on to the pilots.

At the same time the NMCC authorises direct communication between the FAA and NEADS. This is important, because NEADS' technology isn't sufficient to find an aircraft on their own. From the National ATC they gather aircraft information to direct the fighters to the right place.

So that's the protocol.

Now that's not what happened on 9/11. Well, it was, but it's not the only thing that happened.

The chain of command was engaged prematurely for AA11 - before a hijack was confirmed. I suppose they figured it was best to be on the safe side.

Ironically, the processing of AA11 actually interfered with the processing of the other flights. the system wasn't designed to deal with multiple hijackings.

As a result ARTCC's didn't know what was happening. For example when UA175 was initially called in, the managers at Herndon couldn't be contacted because they were busy in a meeting about AA11. Likewise, Indianapolis Center, unaware that there was a possibility of continued hijackings, reported AA77 as crashed, and no one made the connection straight away.

On top of this, remember that suddenly any airliner that wasn't responding (and radio communication is not the flawless system it appears to be in movies, there are constant mis communications and drop outs) was a potential hijack. Well before Herndon was aware of UA175 they were already far overloaded with a number of suspected hijacks, and more added every minute.

As it turned out, the escort request never even got as far as the NMCC and no formal order was issued to NORAD. The entire thing happened backwards - with the ARTCC itself initially trying to contact the actual air base, before contacting NEADS.

Colonel Marr then passed it up the chain of command to General Arnold, who commanded CONUS Region. Arnold made a quick decision at that point to approve an unauthorised scramble order. As he said to Marr "I'll get permission later".

The problem of course with all of this is no one was coordinating the information. NEADS were talking directly to ARTCCs as well as Herndon and CONUS, and Herndon were talking to ARTCCs and NEADS and the airlines while trying to contact both the NMCC and FAA HQ.

And all of them were also watching things like CNN once the news started kicking in.

To make matters worse, the hijackers were doing a lot of things that the system assumed they wouldn't do - such as killing pilots, turning off transponders, changing direction without warning, and crashing their planes.

So it was a mess, but it was a fast-responding mess. If everyone had followed protocol everything would have been much more organised, but the attack would have ended before anyone acted at all.



I do however still believe (arg. from incredulity, yah) that the FAA controlers screwed up bigtime in keeping track of the hijacked planes, even though they had transponders turned off and got off-radar at some points.


How are the ARTCCs meant to keep track of flights if they go off radar or fly into buildings? All they have to go on are little icons on a screen. That's it.



But at this point in time I don't trust the 9/11 Commission anymore, so I don't believe their word either.


You don't have to trust the commission. The information is available elsewhere.



My belief comes from the understanding that air controllers are usually very impeccable people, and whoever was responsible for keeping track of the planes, either had their tracking capabilities sabotaged, or simply failed to comply with their duty.


Yes, their tracking capabilities were sabotaged, by the hijackers.



I don't trust the 9/11 Commission Report since they only blame errors in communication and on the "surprise" factor of the attacks. I personally don't believe such half-assed excuse should be accepted at face value when it could very well be a cover-up of ignorance...



I am sure if you review the facts of the day with an open mind, you can only come to the same conclusion I did - the FAA and NORAD did exceptionally well to deal with a completely unprecedented threat that their system were totally incapable of dealing with.



I do agree with him however that the FAA and NORAD have a much better control over the US airspace than they claimed to have in the commission hearings. It is of my opinion only, and you don't have to agree on this one necessarily, that there should have been more investigations and more interviews into specific air controller officers that were on track of the planes, get their own timelines, corroborate testimonies, etc. Not just take the first answer they get and stick with it.


But that's precisely what was done. In fact they didn't just interview people, they also reviewed audio and radar recordings. That's how they worked out NORAD's first timeline was wrong.

-Gumboot
 
Thank you very much for the summary gumboot. I'm sure you're tired of writing all that stuff up over and over but I appreciate it.
I already knew 80% of that story though... I wasn't that off. I already knew the excuses somewhat and I still don't buy them though. It's based off my personal incredulity so don't bother too much with it.

Having the transponders turned off should be no excuse. Once a plane turns it's transponder off, whoever ATC was keeping an eye on it, should have put all it's stoplights on him and warned everyone about it. I reckon it's hard to identify the plane once it's already turned off, but by the moment it was first turned off, someone definitely failed to keep track of it. Four times.

Having multiply unidentified planes is no excuse either since the real hijackings should have been tracked since responders were turned off, all other suspicions should have been given secondary priority.

Assuming the planes would land is irrelevant since the main job is to keep track of the plane at all times, be it an old style hijack or not. Yet they lost them.

Assume the planes would come overseas makes the protocol look so lame. I don't even know what to say about that. :( Who wrote that stuff anyway?

Anyway, some other things that I wonder about a LIHOI.

No pilot was able to turn the hijack signal on. Whats the exact source for that? I find it unusual that it could happen 4 times but meh. Is the evidence given only testimonies from the Chiefs and Commanders, etc.? Couldn't it be that the are hiding that some of the planes might have turned it on, or is it just impossible to withhold that information from multiple ATC towers?

I've seen them blaming the mutiple failure also on communication procedures not being effective enough for this type of attack. Isn't that a weak argument? Or do you think it's fair to blame it all on communication and lack of protocols for the specific attack, then let them go?

The protocols weren't all that horrid. I can't help it but think it's all an excuse. Is it that hard to keep an eye on the radar, and locate a plane having it's transponder being turned off?

I don't know, I just find it so convenient for the FAA and involved air controllers to go unsuspected.

That of course comes from my own inability to take the 9/11 Commission investigations seriously.
 
Thank you very much for the summary gumboot. I'm sure you're tired of writing all that stuff up over and over but I appreciate it.
I already knew 80% of that story though... I wasn't that off. I already knew the excuses somewhat and I still don't buy them though. It's based off my personal incredulity so don't bother too much with it.

Having the transponders turned off should be no excuse. Once a plane turns it's transponder off, whoever ATC was keeping an eye on it, should have put all it's stoplights on him and warned everyone about it. I reckon it's hard to identify the plane once it's already turned off, but by the moment it was first turned off, someone definitely failed to keep track of it. Four times.

Having multiply unidentified planes is no excuse either since the real hijackings should have been tracked since responders were turned off, all other suspicions should have been given secondary priority.

Assuming the planes would land is irrelevant since the main job is to keep track of the plane at all times, be it an old style hijack or not. Yet they lost them.

Assume the planes would come overseas makes the protocol look so lame. I don't even know what to say about that. :( Who wrote that stuff anyway?

Anyway, some other things that I wonder about a LIHOI.

No pilot was able to turn the hijack signal on. Whats the exact source for that? I find it unusual that it could happen 4 times but meh. Is the evidence given only testimonies from the Chiefs and Commanders, etc.? Couldn't it be that the are hiding that some of the planes might have turned it on, or is it just impossible to withhold that information from multiple ATC towers?

I've seen them blaming the mutiple failure also on communication procedures not being effective enough for this type of attack. Isn't that a weak argument? Or do you think it's fair to blame it all on communication and lack of protocols for the specific attack, then let them go?

The protocols weren't all that horrid. I can't help it but think it's all an excuse. Is it that hard to keep an eye on the radar, and locate a plane having it's transponder being turned off?

I don't know, I just find it so convenient for the FAA and involved air controllers to go unsuspected.

That of course comes from my own inability to take the 9/11 Commission investigations seriously.
Just so summarize, let me know if this is correct.

To support your belief in a CT about 9/11, you made a claim about the FAA and NORAD not following protocol.
You were shown the protocol was followed, thereby removing one of the reasons you believe in the CT.
You basic response is "I still don't buy them though" and "meh" and your belief in the CT remains unshaken "based off my personal incredulity"

I find the above to be quite consistent with many CTists.

The basic steps of a CTist

1. Adopt a CT to believe in.
2. Make a claim to support the CT.
3. When Shown evidence the claim is incorrect ignore it or wave it away (on rare occasion, they will abandon it)
4. Return to step 2

So Yurebiz, what's your next claim?
 
Having the transponders turned off should be no excuse. Once a plane turns it's transponder off, whoever ATC was keeping an eye on it, should have put all it's stoplights on him and warned everyone about it. I reckon it's hard to identify the plane once it's already turned off, but by the moment it was first turned off, someone definitely failed to keep track of it. Four times.

Having multiply unidentified planes is no excuse either since the real hijackings should have been tracked since responders were turned off, all other suspicions should have been given secondary priority.

Assuming the planes would land is irrelevant since the main job is to keep track of the plane at all times, be it an old style hijack or not. Yet they lost them.

Assume the planes would come overseas makes the protocol look so lame. I don't even know what to say about that. :( Who wrote that stuff anyway?

Anyway, some other things that I wonder about a LIHOI.

No pilot was able to turn the hijack signal on. Whats the exact source for that? I find it unusual that it could happen 4 times but meh. Is the evidence given only testimonies from the Chiefs and Commanders, etc.? Couldn't it be that the are hiding that some of the planes might have turned it on, or is it just impossible to withhold that information from multiple ATC towers?

I've seen them blaming the mutiple failure also on communication procedures not being effective enough for this type of attack. Isn't that a weak argument? Or do you think it's fair to blame it all on communication and lack of protocols for the specific attack, then let them go?

The protocols weren't all that horrid. I can't help it but think it's all an excuse. Is it that hard to keep an eye on the radar, and locate a plane having it's transponder being turned off?

I don't know, I just find it so convenient for the FAA and involved air controllers to go unsuspected.

That of course comes from my own inability to take the 9/11 Commission investigations seriously.
Turning of the transponder means what to a controller? It could mean power failure, failure of the transponder, and when the transponder is off you have to do something to see the target. Plus you can not stop controlling other planes people will die. So much for you being a controller. Plus you missed the hijacked plane who did not turn off his transponder. Please get some facts.

How do they know the planes were hijacked?

Old style hijacking? Yes they kept other planes from hitting the planes that were not responding to radio calls, no one told them they were hijacked right off the bat. You could do a time line and figure out when the controllers knew about the hijacking but you are forgetting why we have the FAA, to keep planes safe from traffic. The hijacked aircraft are traffic, the FAA kept other planes from hitting them. The FAA does not shoot down planes, the FAA can not stop a plane from deviating.

NORAD was to protect us from bomber coming for overseas. Who made this up? NORAD did not go around shooting down airliners before 9/11. Sorry, these are the facts. Next.

Hijackers come in and cut your throat, you may not be able to set the hijack signal. Darn, can dead people use equipment that the hijackers have under control? The equiptiment needed to indicate a hijacking was under the control of the hijackers. Darn, the pilots would also talk if they could as they were being attacked, it seems like the terrorist must of surprised the pilots at level off. The pilots must of been too busy being attacked and dying to talk or set codes. Did you know some stuff was heard but it was not clear, over the radios with ATC. You seem to be making up the ATC junk.

So when is the last time you were killed at in an airplane you were flying, do you think you would have problems communicating?

ATC controllers can not hide something, they work together handing planes off. Anyone in on it would be caught in a few minutes and fired. I can not even figure out what you are talking about. Where do you make up these ideas. ATC did as well as they could with an attack going with four planes doing what usually was just one plane at a time.

Yes transponders fail and the plane has to land and get it fixed.

Yes idiots have taken over planes and forced them to crash so the idiot could kill people. Did you miss the one where a guy went nuts and took over a plane and crashed it? Not a thing ATC can do.

Yes planes do stupid things everyday, but four planes hijacked the same day without ATC knowing directly, kind of like a surprise. What was ATC suppose to do? Did you see all the stuff Gravy has on protocol before 9/11 on this subject.

I am interested in what you really are trying to say. What is your CT on ATC? What is the total idea on you story behind 9/11 and how ATC/NORAD/and dead pilots play in it?
 
Yurebiz:

If I am correct, your entire CT is based upon an argument from incredulity, and you admit this.

In other words, your entire CT is based upon a logical fallacy, and you admit this.

Ladies, Gents and Reptiles...we have reached a new low.
 
I already knew the excuses somewhat and I still don't buy them though. It's based off my personal incredulity so don't bother too much with it.


Do you not think there's something wrong with holding a belief in complete defiance of the evidence that indicates this belief is wrong?

Most human beings - yes even religious ones - would find this incredibly illogical and foolish.



Having the transponders turned off should be no excuse. Once a plane turns it's transponder off, whoever ATC was keeping an eye on it, should have put all it's stoplights on him and warned everyone about it. I reckon it's hard to identify the plane once it's already turned off, but by the moment it was first turned off, someone definitely failed to keep track of it. Four times.


Okay you've mentioned this previously, and I thought you were meaning something else. Clearly you're not.

Why do you believe the ARTCC lost track of the aircraft? This simply is not true. With the exception of AA77, all aircraft were tracked through their entire flight, until they flew below radar coverage (radars cannot track targets below a very low altitude of perhaps 1,000ft). Where did this notion come from that ARTCC "lost" the flights?

AA77 was lost because of where it was. In the region where the hijacking occurred, there was no primary radar coverage.

Basically, there's two types of radar coverage. Primary Radar is a direct response from the radar station itself, and detects the actual physical radar return from a physical object in the air. Any object over a specific size will make a return.

You often here remarks about Stealth aircraft saying things such as "it has the radar cross section of a small bird". This is the primary reading of the object - it means the radar detects the stealth aircraft as being an object as small as a sparrow (which obviously means radars not designed to track objects that small will miss it entirely).

However the main type of radar used in ATC is secondary radar. Secondary radar "interrogates" an aircraft's transponder, and receives information from it. This information is the flight number, type of aircraft, heading, air speed, altitude, and so on.

Obviously, the primary radar cannot determine all of this, although with a number of radar towers cross-referencing they can determine position, altitude, and roughly determine speed.

In a normal situation the ATC uses the secondary radar, with only the transponder returns.

If the transponder is turned off, you still have the primary return, you just don't have all of the information you need, such as the flight number etc...

However, if you're in an area with no primary radar coverage (as happened with AA77) if the transponder is turned off, the aircraft simply vanishes.

The natural assumption in this instance is the aircraft has crashed. That's what the ARTCC assumed.

Obviously later, when AA77 comes back into primary radar coverage again - which it did - ARTCC will be able to track it again (again, which they did). However they (obviously) won't know the flight number or any such details.

In the case of AA11 and UA175, each dropped below radar coverage a matter of minutes before impact - until then they were both being tracked. UA93 was being tracked on radar right up until it crashed. AA77 was lost on radar for some 50 minutes for the reasons previously stated, and was detected again approximately 3 minutes before it crashed.

So I'm not entirely sure why you keep saying that ARTCC lost track of the flights. They didn't.



Having multiply unidentified planes is no excuse either since the real hijackings should have been tracked since responders were turned off, all other suspicions should have been given secondary priority.


Again with the "lost flights". The multiple aircraft did cause brief confusion, namely that, by coincidence, UA175 was being worked by the same controller at New York Center who was handling AA11. Because he was so fixated on AA11 (as you assert, he gave priority to the hijacked flight) he missed the fact that UA175 changed its transponder code several times in a short duration. As a result this possibly briefly delayed the realisation the UA175 was also hijacked.



Assuming the planes would land is irrelevant since the main job is to keep track of the plane at all times, be it an old style hijack or not. Yet they lost them.

No, they didn't lose them. The reason I mentioned the expectation that they would land is that the protocol put in place was based on the assumption that authorities would have plenty of time to respond, and that the aircraft itself didn't really pose a threat.



Assume the planes would come overseas makes the protocol look so lame. I don't even know what to say about that. :( Who wrote that stuff anyway?



You may feel it is lame, but that doesn't change the fact that this is how it was on 9/11. NORAD was only ever tasked with protecting against outward originating threats, so this protocol dates back to NORAD's formation in 1958.



No pilot was able to turn the hijack signal on. Whats the exact source for that?


You mean the exact source for the claim? The ATC centers.



I find it unusual that it could happen 4 times but meh. Is the evidence given only testimonies from the Chiefs and Commanders, etc.? Couldn't it be that the are hiding that some of the planes might have turned it on, or is it just impossible to withhold that information from multiple ATC towers?

Chiefs and Commanders?

No. The people who would receive a 7500 hijack code are the air traffic controllers. Each aircraft icon on their screen is accompanied by a set of data, including the aircraft's transponder code. If that code changes to 7500, the operator knows immediately it is a hijack.

As to why no code was punched... well that's simple enough. Have you ever been in the cockpit of a 757 or 767? I have. They are very cramped. A pilot in the cockpit is incredibly vulnerable to attack. Imagine you are sitting in your aircraft, flying along nice and peaceful. Suddenly you hear a scream and shouting behind you. You hear movement, and suddenly a metal blade is driven into your throat. You've now got about 30 seconds to do something before you bleed to death.

It is simply ridiculous to think that in such a scenario either the pilot or copilot would have even a remote chance of getting in a 7500 code.



I've seen them blaming the mutiple failure also on communication procedures not being effective enough for this type of attack. Isn't that a weak argument? Or do you think it's fair to blame it all on communication and lack of protocols for the specific attack, then let them go?


No, I don't think it's a "weak argument" at all. It's a fact. The procedures in place simply were not capable of responding to an attack of that nature. The obvious answer to this is to change protocol and ensure such an attack never succeeds again. And this is precisely what happened. Communication between NORAD and the FAA has been hugely improved, and more importantly data sharing has been greatly improved and they now share a network. NORAD also have had a huge upgrade of equipment, which they desperately needed (on 9/11 NORAD radars were grossly inferior to FAA ones), and they have been granted many more resources (NORAD now has many more alert bases, as well as randomly located Combat Air Patrols always in place supported by Air Refuelling aircraft and AWACS aircraft).

You may ask, "Why wasn't it like this on 9/11?" and the answer is simple. Money. Maintaining the sort of readiness they have now is enormously expensive. The Democrat Administration of the 90's that stripped NORAD of resources and reduced their readiness did so to save money, as they were not considered an asset that was going to be used in a peaceful climate.



The protocols weren't all that horrid. I can't help it but think it's all an excuse. Is it that hard to keep an eye on the radar, and locate a plane having it's transponder being turned off?

I don't know, I just find it so convenient for the FAA and involved air controllers to go unsuspected.

That of course comes from my own inability to take the 9/11 Commission investigations seriously.


As pointed out, the aircraft were not lost, except for AA77. AA77 was lost because it disappeared from radar. How, precisely, do you propose an ATC "keeps an eye on the radar" and locates an aircraft that does not appear on said radar?

-Gumboot
 
I'll keep it simple so as to save you time. I sincerely believe I'm too much of a nuisance for you especially on this subject where I have been wrong so much. I still want to figure out some things though.

How fast was it for an ATC to switch from secondary to primary radar, on 9/11? Did one had to switch computers or look at separate screens, or could one switch the radar on the same equipment?

I find this a crucial question to the matter...

If the main blame is all pointed at the transponders, this was either a huge gapping hole on the whole system as you show me, or an excuse used to clear them of blame.

Do you think it's possible for an ATC tower to be slacking off in the time of the attacks, had the ability to track a hijacked plane on 9/11, and got cleared of blame due to this protocol opening?
 
No pilot was able to turn the hijack signal on. Whats the exact source for that? I find it unusual that it could happen 4 times but meh.
Meh? Please provide a list of tasks that you feel you could accomplish while being murdered.



What the hell is wrong with these people?
 
How fast was it for an ATC to switch from secondary to primary radar, on 9/11? Did one had to switch computers or look at separate screens, or could one switch the radar on the same equipment?


As far as I'm aware, there's no change over. The way I understand it, the secondary hit overlays the primary, so if the transponder drops off the primary is still there behind it. Thus no need to switch.

However, obviously if there is no primary coverage, you cannot switch.



If the main blame is all pointed at the transponders


It isn't. The only flight they caused a major problem for was AA77.




Do you think it's possible for an ATC tower to be slacking off in the time of the attacks, had the ability to track a hijacked plane on 9/11, and got cleared of blame due to this protocol opening?

It's possible they were slacking off. The evidence suggests they were not. I have to ask again, where do you get the idea that the flights were lost? They were not.

The fact is, even had NORAD had more fighters, and even had the aircraft maintained transponder contact, and even had the FAA told NORAD the instant the aircraft changed course, and even had the policy been to shoot down any airliner that altered course, I still think NORAD would have been hard-pressed to shoot down all four flights. If the fighters were in the air at the time of the attack, and had an AWACS airborne with them... now you're talking.

-Gumboot
 
Meh? Please provide a list of tasks that you feel you could accomplish while being murdered.


For some reason I found that comment hilarious. I'm not sure why. It shouldn't be. I think it's because the way you worded it just completely underlined the utter absurdity of the CTers' proposals.

-Gumboot
 
Re: the hijacker signal thing, did pilots being hijacked pre-9/11 really think "oh no, this might be a hijacking, I must punch in 7500 on the transponder before I'm slaughtered"? Because I think it's more likely they would investigate a situation first, thinking that if necessary they could do that in a couple of minutes time.
 
Re: the hijacker signal thing, did pilots being hijacked pre-9/11 really think "oh no, this might be a hijacking, I must punch in 7500 on the transponder before I'm slaughtered"? Because I think it's more likely they would investigate a situation first, thinking that if necessary they could do that in a couple of minutes time.


Quite. I imagine the first real warning that most of them got that something was up was a knife being driven into their throat. At that point I imagine they were somewhat preoccupied with dying to worry about the 7500 code.

-Gumboot
 
Is it that easy to penetrate a Boeing cockpit? Don't they have security doors and such? I reckon that hijackers can enter it over time by pressuring the flight crew, but wouldn't the pilots become aware of the hassle before they come in?
No biggie though, that's not the issue. Just JAQing off.

So they did keep track of all planes except flight 77? I was under the impression that they didn't. There wa indeed a lot of confusion. I just want to know whether this confusion is due to human err, or is it really all the protocol incompatibilities with the situation..
 

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