There is no debate on 9/11...

Not at all, not if Al Qaeda is controlled by CIA/MI6.

Evidence?

If you hold the viewpoint that Al Qaeda was part of, or used by, the rogue network,

What, pray tell, is the "rogue network?" And...evidence?

then LIHOP and MIHOP are the same thing.

No they are not. LIHOP generally implies that the events of the day went as has been described; the only difference here is that the USG "let" it happen. In this scenario, the towers fell due to structural failure, fire, etc. etc.

MIHOP implies CD, among other theories, which directly involves the USG.

LIHOP and MIHOP are not equivalent no matter how you slice it.

Unless of course you will posit that the CIA/M16 made "Al Qaeda" fly planes into buildings, and then had bombs preplanted to take the buildings down, etc. etc. Part of the USG then had to "let it happen on purpose" i.e. let the rogue part of the government do this while controlling Al Qaeda and knowing they were planting bombs in the towers and CDing WTC 7. So the USG knows about this rogue element CIA/M16 controlling Al Qaeda but does nothing about it and...

*THUD*

Wait, where am I? Blacked out there for a second.
 
Technically any and all variations of MIHOP also constitute LIHOP.

-Gumboot
 
Yurebiz and skepticalcriticalguy-

#1. why is it so important for you guys that people at JREF believe your side of the story? Are you that insecure in your beliefs? You're like door-to-door Evangelists who keep coming back to the home that doesn't accept the "truth". You just cant deal with the fact that some very intelligent people don't want your tupperware. I see a deep emotional need for validation here.

#2. Why dont you come up with an actual theory of what happened that day. Who did what...when they did it...how they did it. Names, places, dates, materials, etc etc. Thats a real theory. We have our theory...what is yours?
You know what parky, you're right. It's pointless to provide my point of view here. Either you can see the cover up, or you can't. There is a stockpile amount of omissions in the 9/11 Commission Report that it's just amazing. And you guys know it, you have been through it before.

I'm not aiming to prove MIHOP or even LIHOP, I just wish you OCTists could at least admit LIHOI. But not even that. You hold your wits to the 9/11 Commission, knowing all it's mistakes and lack of investigation, yet you think there's no need for a new report.

You're telling me that you're fine with no officials from either the FAA nor NORAD being held accountable from their mistakes.

You're telling me that you're fine with a report that says the twin towers were hollow. And no mention of WTC7.

Those are all minor events, I reckon.

But I don't like it at all.

In defense against LIHOP I could hear every skeptic say "oh but the FAA/NORAD just covered up their asses". Well? And the Commission just LET them do that? Why no further investigation with them? What if Al-Qaeda had members infiltrated within these agencies, causing confusion to allow the hijackers to fly the planes wherever they wanted?

In my honest opinion, a true investigative inquiry would ahve gone deep into the Pakistani connections, deep into the Israeli art students infiltrated here and watching the muslim would-be hijackers, deep into the stock traders that placed put options on the airliner companies' stocks, deep investigation onto Mineta's testimony and the "young aid", deep into the multiple pre-911 warnings and it's sources, deep into what the FBI was doing at all...

But we didn't see any of that, did we?

Those are all minor leads, I reckon.

It's just so easy to cast away each one of the leads separately.

You can say, and you DO say, that it's all coincidence, no relevance at all.

I can only agree to disagree with you. I can't make you see something that hasn't been proven.

I can only point out that these issues have not been openly investigated by the agencies. They have only been investigated by independent media reporters and others. No wonder there's no connection: no authority has ever investigated it. How can a conspiracy be unveiled if no commission decides to investigate it?

How can people pay for their crimes if they were never asked about it...

We have a clear cover-up scenario. The argument of "there's no evidence" loses it's value because the evidence is withheld by the federal agencies...

SOMEONE IS CLEARLY COVERING UP THEIR ASSES. AGREE OR DISAGREE?

Hence the need of a new investigation. Agree or disagree?

Gosh, one would figure that CRITICAL THINKERS would be able to make such basic connections. -.-
 
Yurebiz, you'll actually find that many people here believe incompetence in the government allowed 9/11 to happened. Personally, I disagree. But I suspect I'm in the minority.

MAy I ask what mistakes, specifically, the FAA and NORAD made? I'm pretty familiar with their standard procedures and their actions on 9/11 so I may be able to provide you some answers.

-Gumboot
 
You know what parky, you're right. It's pointless to provide my point of view here. Either you can see the cover up, or you can't. There is a stockpile amount of omissions in the 9/11 Commission Report that it's just amazing. And you guys know it, you have been through it before.
Ah, we're back to the "all the relevant facts aren't in one enormous book" thing, are we?

I'm not aiming to prove MIHOP or even LIHOP, I just wish you OCTists could at least admit LIHOI.
Are you insane?

Hey, I'm Just Asking Questions.

You're telling me that you're fine with a report that says the twin towers were hollow.
Where did we tell you that? Please give referenced quotations.

Which report says that the twin towers were hollow? Provide quotations and context.

We have a clear cover-up scenario. The argument of "there's no evidence" loses it's value because the evidence is withheld by the federal agencies...
What are you talking about here: 9/11, the Roswell Incident, or Elvis assassinating JFK?

'Cos this formula allows you to believe anything you damn well please without a shred of evidence.
 
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NORAD didn't quite do any mistakes. They just didn't do anything in a time that the country was being attacked...
As for the FAA, it's their job to report any hijacking or odd behavior, of commercial airplanes going off-track or not responding, to NEADS (NORAD) and see what's going on...
Something went very wrong, FAA went nuts, and things didn't happen they way it should. 4 Planes were hijacked and crashed in a period of about 1 1/2 hours and nothing was done to stop them...
Is that not right?

Ah, we're back to the "all the relevant facts aren't in one enormous book" thing, are we?

Are you insane?

Hey, I'm Just Asking Questions.

Where did we tell you that? Please give referenced quotations.

Which report says that the twin towers were hollow? Provide quotations and context.

What are you talking about here: 9/11, the Roswell Incident, or Elvis assassinating JFK?

'Cos this formula allows you to believe anything you damn well please without a shred of evidence.

As solicited by the victim's families, yes, we need a big 'reference guide' book about 9/11.

The 9/11 Commission Report says that. I'm not going to quote it because I'm the laziest CTer you'll ever find.

And yes that's 9/11.
 
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NORAD didn't quite do any mistakes. They just didn't do anything in a time that the country was being attacked...
As for the FAA, it's their job to report any hijacking or odd behavior, of commercial airplanes going off-track or not responding, to NEADS (NORAD) and see what's going on...
Something went very wrong, FAA went nuts, and things didn't happen they way it should. 4 Planes were hijacked and crashed in a period of about 1 1/2 hours and nothing was done to stop them...
Is that not right?



What are your grounds for asserting that the FAA should have notified NORAD? At what point should they have notified NORAD? What method and level of notification should have occurred?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm badgering you, I'm just trying to determine where your assertions are based.

Bear in mind each of these organisations is very large, with multiple levels of command structure, from local operations centre right up to a Federal headquarters.

-Gumboot
 
The Commission also OMMITTED Leprachauns, and visitng aliens from the possible causes of the attacks...clearly this warrants a new independent investigation.

TAM:)
 
NORAD didn't quite do any mistakes. They just didn't do anything in a time that the country was being attacked...
As for the FAA, it's their job to report any hijacking or odd behavior, of commercial airplanes going off-track or not responding, to NEADS (NORAD) and see what's going on...
Something went very wrong, FAA went nuts, and things didn't happen they way it should. 4 Planes were hijacked and crashed in a period of about 1 1/2 hours and nothing was done to stop them...
Is that not right?
This is pretty simple, Yurebiz...

Why don't you tell us exactly what you think should have happened and back it up with evidence. If you think NORAD should have done something or something quicker, show evidence supporting your claim. Cite specific NORAD protocols or processes which support your claim. Same for the FAA. If you can, that will take us down one path. If you can't. then you need to drop your claim.
 
NORAD didn't quite do any mistakes. They just didn't do anything in a time that the country was being attacked...
As for the FAA, it's their job to report any hijacking or odd behavior, of commercial airplanes going off-track or not responding, to NEADS (NORAD) and see what's going on...

Something went very wrong, FAA went nuts, and things didn't happen they way it should. 4 Planes were hijacked and crashed in a period of about 1 1/2 hours and nothing was done to stop them...
Is that not right?
Some facts for you. From some people called the "9/11 Commission", I don't know if you've heard of them?
 
What are your grounds for asserting that the FAA should have notified NORAD? At what point should they have notified NORAD? What method and level of notification should have occurred?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm badgering you, I'm just trying to determine where your assertions are based.

Bear in mind each of these organisations is very large, with multiple levels of command structure, from local operations centre right up to a Federal headquarters.

-Gumboot

This is pretty simple, Yurebiz...

Why don't you tell us exactly what you think should have happened and back it up with evidence. If you think NORAD should have done something or something quicker, show evidence supporting your claim. Cite specific NORAD protocols or processes which support your claim. Same for the FAA. If you can, that will take us down one path. If you can't. then you need to drop your claim.

Oh, but isn't that wonderful. Recently, that guy you might have heard about a few months ago, Robin Hordon, an ex-air controller (from a Boston.. airport I think?), was interviewed again in a radio show.. I haven't listened to this one yet, but I did hear his first one, which I believe was on AJ's show.

Well he says that in the first hour of 9/11 he was sure something was wrong.. that procedures were most likely not followed, that FAA has knowledge of everything that takes off and land in the country, blablabla... That they HAVe to report any unusual behavior to NEADS under 5 minutes and so...
this more recent interview is here,
http://www.911blogger.com/node/8424
I'll listen to it and give ya some quotes ¬¬
 
I'm not aiming to prove MIHOP or even LIHOP, I just wish you OCTists could at least admit LIHOI.

As I recall, TAM came up with the expression "LIHOI".

¥ou're telling me that you're fine with a report that says the twin towers were hollow.

Uh?

And no mention of WTC7.

WTC7 had nothing to do with the attacks.
 
As solicited by the victim's families, yes, we need a big 'reference guide' book about 9/11.
Funny, I've never heard the victims' families express any preferences on how the data should be bound.

I'm not going to quote it because I'm the laziest CTer you'll ever find.
You have a lot of competition in that field, but I have to admire the gall of a guy who wants someone else to compile the single largest book ever written, but won't produce one darn citation for one darn claim.
 
Oh, but isn't that wonderful. Recently, that guy you might have heard about a few months ago, Robin Hordon, an ex-air controller (from a Boston.. airport I think?), was interviewed again in a radio show.. I haven't listened to this one yet, but I did hear his first one, which I believe was on AJ's show.

Well he says that in the first hour of 9/11 he was sure something was wrong.. that procedures were most likely not followed, that FAA has knowledge of everything that takes off and land in the country, blablabla... That they HAVe to report any unusual behavior to NEADS under 5 minutes and so...
this more recent interview is here,
http://www.911blogger.com/node/8424
I'll listen to it and give ya some quotes ¬¬
Hordon was fired under Reagan. He is not even current. False flag by Alex Jones.

BTW, everything that Alex Jones says is junk. So if you use Alex Jones junk you can just forget facts. Alex Jones, wow. Now you have said it all. Sorry but Hordon does not know what he is talking about, but I know he is pissed at the USG.
 
Hordon was fired under Reagan. He is not even current. False flag by Alex Jones.

BTW, everything that Alex Jones says is junk. So if you use Alex Jones junk you can just forget facts. Alex Jones, wow. Now you have said it all. Sorry but Hordon does not know what he is talking about, but I know he is pissed at the USG.
I know that.
Wait, I DIDNT know that.
But he's still an ex-controller...
I don't know of any other source from where we can find hijacking protocols for the FAA.. not an easy one that is.
You folks love getting your way out with arguments from incredulity and ad-hominem..
well guess what, I LIKE THAT TOO, HAHA.
Um, ok that was pointless.
Anyway, let me hear that thing then I'll give you something ¬¬
 
I know that.
Wait, I DIDNT know that.
But he's still an ex-controller...
I don't know of any other source from where we can find hijacking protocols for the FAA.. not an easy one that is.
You folks love getting your way out with arguments from incredulity and ad-hominem..
well guess what, I LIKE THAT TOO, HAHA.
Um, ok that was pointless.
Anyway, let me hear that thing then I'll give you something ¬¬
Do you have any idea when Reagan was President?

This guy has not controlled an airplane since the days of hijacking an airplane usually ended up in CUBA and we have never shot down one airplane because it was hijacked. Do you want a jet to come up and piss off the guy with the gun. They had guns in the old days because we did not check for guns as good as we try now.

NORAD would not shoot down an airliner due to hijacking in the good old days when our now old out of work for decades (the s is intended) x controller.

His stuff is pure woo, and confirmed by all the other people coming forward from the FAA and NORAD.

You bring up a controller who has not been in the business for over 20 years, offer no facts and say I can not inform you of his being a woo too? Present so facts to prove this guy knows one thing to support the ideas of the 9/11 truth movement. I have found not one thing in pages and articles about your controller which you did not even know has not worked since he walked out in the 80s. You are the one who needs to research better.

Instead of looking for lies why not try to find some facts.
 
Do you have any idea when Reagan was President?

This guy has not controlled an airplane since the days of hijacking an airplane usually ended up in CUBA and we have never shot down one airplane because it was hijacked. Do you want a jet to come up and piss off the guy with the gun. They had guns in the old days because we did not check for guns as good as we try now.

NORAD would not shoot down an airliner due to hijacking in the good old days when our now old out of work for decades (the s is intended) x controller.

His stuff is pure woo, and confirmed by all the other people coming forward from the FAA and NORAD.

You bring up a controller who has not been in the business for over 20 years, offer no facts and say I can not inform you of his being a woo too? Present so facts to prove this guy knows one thing to support the ideas of the 9/11 truth movement. I have found not one thing in pages and articles about your controller which you did not even know has not worked since he walked out in the 80s. You are the one who needs to research better.

Instead of looking for lies why not try to find some facts.
Fine I'll drop the crazy old man, geez.
I'll find a source for the protocols. I'm sure they don't go over 10 min's before notifying NEADS. That's undebatable right?
 
And you guys know it, you have been through it before.
You say things like this in almost every post. You may not have noticed it, but most of us don't agree with your opinions. Please learn to speak for yourself and to not project your thoughts on others.

You're telling me that you're fine with a report that says the twin towers were hollow. And no mention of WTC7.
Straw man. Was the 9/11 Commission report an engineering report? No, it wasn't. You should refer to the NIST reports if you have problems with the official version of the collapses.
You can say, and you DO say, that it's all coincidence, no relevance at all.
Please review my first comment.

SOMEONE IS CLEARLY COVERING UP THEIR ASSES. AGREE OR DISAGREE?
Agree. My ass is covered up.

Hence the need of a new investigation. Agree or disagree?
The Yurebiz method:

1) Jump to conclusions
2) Falsely claim that your critics agree with your conclusions
3) Convince no one with your seriously flawed logic
 

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