There is no debate on 9/11...

Ummm...

The reality never changes.

But the JREF/debunker/OCT story does. It is constantly changing. Like this article (Debunking Conspiracy Theorists) points out. http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm

The last time I posted this article, the responses I got were "that's from 2003! How about something more recent!" Well, it makes a point. A good one. Read it, please.
How does that prove the official story is "constantly changing"?

Holmgren says that "For a start, they conveniently skip over the awkward fact that there weren't any Arabs on the planes", for instance, then says when confronted with this people suggest they used false ID, which leads to other problems etc. Trouble is, he's just making that up. Only the Inside Job movement says that there were no Arabs on the plane, everyone else says that's untrue. No changes required here at all.

He then says that "the conspiracy theorist now confronts the difficult question of why there's nothing left of the planes", and so has to invent excuses as to why they're completely vapourised. But guess what? Only people peddling straw men say that. It's not something claimed by anyone else.

Then we get another straw man about the jet fuel having to melt steel (not necessary), and a truly laughable claim that 100 degrees C is enough to destroy DNA. There's the fiction about Flight 77 crashing through 6 walls before exiting, a suggestion that there's a problem about the lawn not being scarred (there isn't, it didn't hit the lawn), and on, and on, and on it goes. Endless straw men and debunked nonsense. You're right, it's unfair to insist on newer articles, but I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for better ones. Because I really don't think that one does a good job of arguing your case.
 
Meh I stayed up "late" today thinking about some things...
I haven't had time to mine reports for a single timeline as I said I would.. so instead...
I stuck up with Greening's topic line "What debate?" from a few weeks ago and come up with the following rant...
-----
There's nothing to debate.. because this debate has never started..
There is no official story provided by the government

The role of the government is not to write stories. It's interesting that "story" is the word most used from the CT viewpoint.

Everything is OK, it was all explained to us. The twoof movement is delusional and all there's in to 9/11 was a gigantic cock-up to our defense system. Nothing to worry about folks.

Nothing to worry about? 19 Arabs can kill thousands of people and destroy billions of dollars of property and there's nothing to worry about?

This is where the CT's have their most negative effect. They've hindered a real investigation into the real issues by introducing fantasies.

and I leave ya with a video that just came out of 9/11 Blogger. Whistleblowers, sweet. :|

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1956542165192088795


I can only speak for myself, but I don't intend to watch any more videos. If a transcript were provided, possibly. That tends to point out the hollowness of the arguments.
 
SKG, I've read the Holgrem article from the link you provided and I entirely concur with MikeW. Actually, I'm a little shocked that you would link to such a poor article.
 
Ummm...

The reality never changes.

But the JREF/debunker/OCT story does. It is constantly changing. Like this article (Debunking Conspiracy Theorists) points out. http://www.serendipity.li/wot/holmgren01.htm

The last time I posted this article, the responses I got were "that's from 2003! How about something more recent!" Well, it makes a point. A good one. Read it, please.

Sorry, I should have been more specific.

The reality never changes. The strawmans used by the conspiracy theorists occasionally do though.

Honestly, if you're going to argue with us, argue against the actual claims being made, not some half-cocked fantasy notion you've concocted.
 
Predictable responses...
Look, there can be no debate because there was no criminal investigation undisclosed to us.

We can only speculate on what the India press meant with the ISI connection allegation.
We can only speculate on what models are the most accurate on depicting the collapse of the buildings.

Fact is, no one ever got punished for letting the planes crash in the FAA.
Fact is, the leads were not followed, the 9/11 Commission did not investigate any further than the 19 hijackers' faction.
Fact is, there was a cover up, and there still is, of information regarding pre-9/11 information.
Those two put together should be enough to raise the eyebrows of the most naive critical thinkers. Yet there's no single suspicion, no minimal probability given to a... even a LIHOI scenario, which has ZERO craziness, in this forum, for the exception of a handful of honest OCTers. The rest of you are simple skeptoids, I really can't say no less

If you can't admit there was something weird going on, you simply don't care to give a damn to each absurdity, and merely discard every other bit of information you see on the way. By disregarding every bit of evidence that may point to a LIHOI/LIHOP/MIHOP, you paint yourselves more and more as biased thinkers that don't want to contemplate alternative possibilities.

By not admitting the need of a new 9/11 Commission, you admit not having any regards to the truth, or the victims, or this country as a whole....

There's no debate...

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

If you can go through this website and deny ANY, at LEAST a 1% probability of 9/11 have been LIHOI, it just... meh, I'm not going to slander any more. Each to it's own.
 
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This "no unified document" thing is funny, I must tip off my creationist friends.

"If the theory of evolution was true, the evidence for it would all be in one book!"

Yeah, that sounds about crazy enough for them.

Tell you what, pal, if this is what worries you, then why don't you get copies of all the various reports and bind them together in one enormous volume?
 
Fact is, no one ever got punished for letting the planes crash in the FAA.
Your point being?

Fact is, the leads were not followed, the 9/11 Commission did not investigate any further than the 19 hijackers' faction.
This is not, in fact, a fact.

Fact is, there was a cover up, and there still is, of information regarding pre-9/11 information.
You have not demonstrated this alleged "fact".

Those two put together should be enough to raise the eyebrows of the most naive critical thinkers.
Yes indeed. And also the question: why should we believe your unsubstantiated assertions?
 
This "no unified document" thing is funny, I must tip off my creationist friends.

"If the theory of evolution was true, the evidence for it would all be in one book!"

Yeah, that sounds about crazy enough for them.

Tell you what, pal, if this is what worries you, then why don't you get copies of all the various reports and bind them together in one enormous volume?
Because this was the 9/11 Commission Report's mission. Thus failing, we need a new one. Disagree?
I'm not a creationist. I fully believe in evolution but that's another issue
Besides, Evolution is a scientific theory, no correlation at all with criminal investigations...
Your point being?

This is not, in fact, a fact.

You have not demonstrated this alleged "fact".

Yes indeed. And also the question: why should we believe your unsubstantiated assertions?
:(

Because I've seen these points been made here before, without any disagreement. LIHOI is barely even a theory, and you people don't admit it. Moreover, you deny the need of a new investigation...

9/11 Commission report did not follow the money trail.. dang it, you probably now that very well. -.-
They did not investigate into foreknowledge from warnings and etc... I'm not going to explain all what you're tired to hear.
 
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Predictable responses...
Look, there can be no debate because there was no criminal investigation undisclosed to us.

We can only speculate on what the India press meant with the ISI connection allegation.
We can only speculate on what models are the most accurate on depicting the collapse of the buildings.

Fact is, no one ever got punished for letting the planes crash in the FAA.
Fact is, the leads were not followed, the 9/11 Commission did not investigate any further than the 19 hijackers' faction.
Fact is, there was a cover up, and there still is, of information regarding pre-9/11 information.
Those two put together should be enough to raise the eyebrows of the most naive critical thinkers. Yet there's no single suspicion, no minimal probability given to a... even a LIHOI scenario, which has ZERO craziness, in this forum, for the exception of a handful of honest OCTers. The rest of you are simple skeptoids, I really can't say no less

If you can't admit there was something weird going on, you simply don't care to give a damn to each absurdity, and merely discard every other bit of information you see on the way. By disregarding every bit of evidence that may point to a LIHOI/LIHOP/MIHOP, you paint yourselves more and more as biased thinkers that don't want to contemplate alternative possibilities.

By not admitting the need of a new 9/11 Commission, you admit not having any regards to the truth, or the victims, or this country as a whole....

There's no debate...

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

If you can go through this website and deny ANY, at LEAST a 1% probability of 9/11 have been LIHOI, it just... meh, I'm not going to slander any more. Each to it's own.

Since there is no debate, as you are unwilling to debate on rational grounds (you know, like providing actual proof, not vague "it doesn't seem right to me" non-expert assertions), I suggest you leave this forum. Your appeals to emotion and personal incredulity simply fail to impress us.
 
Because this was the 9/11 Commission Report's mission.
Bookbinding? Really?

Because I've seen these points been made here before, without any disagreement.
Huh?

You have now seen them being made with disagreement. I don't see the point of your first fact or the validity of the other two.

9/11 Commission report did not follow the money trail.. dang it, you probably now that very well. -.-
They did not investigate into foreknowledge from warnings and etc...
More assertions.
 
Since there is no debate, as you are unwilling to debate on rational grounds (you know, like providing actual proof, not vague "it doesn't seem right to me" non-expert assertions), I suggest you leave this forum. Your appeals to emotion and personal incredulity simply fail to impress us.
For crying out loud. Do I have to? Seriously, I could come up here with a dozen links for you people to rehash and check it all out over again. Do we have to go over all that again?

People on this forum section have admitted the possibility of the ISI connection being true.
People on this forum section have admitted the 9/11 Commission is flawed in a couple ways

I'm pointing out that there's a need for a new investigation, and there's no debate about that. There's a need for a new investigation, to settle all these issues once and for all. The debatable and non-debatable aspects of 9/11.

Do I really have to quote-mine everyone and put up twenty separate links indicating the basic LIHOI?

In case you don't have a clue what LIHOI is, it's Let It Happen Out of Ignorance. Term coined by TAM, AFAIK.

Bookbinding? Really?

Huh?

You have now seen them being made with disagreement. I don't see the point of your first fact or the validity of the other two.

More assertions.

It's not an assertion... do your research on this very same sub forum... I know I did, for over 6 months now -.-
 
I fail to see what was "explosive" about the way the twin towers collapsed. In fact, they looked just like what I'd expect to see if large structures were collapsing as a result of structural failure. Nothing "explosive" about it at all.
Agreed.
There's NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of explosives at the WTC.
Websites such as these are simply deluded in their analysis...

911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp2.html
911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp9.html
911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc1nenw.html
 
Agreed.
There's NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of explosives at the WTC.
Websites such as these are simply deluded in their analysis...

911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp2.html
911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp9.html
911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc1nenw.html

Um, where's the analysis? Those three pages simply have photos of the collapse.

ETA: Or are you referring to the arrow pointing to a 'squib' in the first photo? Are you really claiming that the 'squib' is evidence of CD?
 
Agreed.
There's NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of explosives at the WTC.
Websites such as these are simply deluded in their analysis...

911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp2.html
911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp9.html
911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc1nenw.html

Yes, they are throughly and utterly deluded. The first link points to a burst of stuff coming out of the windows AFTER THE BUILDING HAS ALREADY STARTED FALLING. Such foolishness is common among the CT set.
 
There's NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of explosives at the WTC.
Websites such as these are simply deluded in their analysis...

911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp2.html
911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc2exp9.html
911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/wtc1nenw.html
I fail to see the explosion part of the assertion. I do see an enormous dust cloud rising up as the building collapses, which, again, is not unexpected in a complete collapse.

See, when I hear the word "explosive" I think explosives. You know, things like dynamite. Things which are quite distinctive in how they work and how they appear and sound. None of which is present on any of the many videos of the WTC collapses I've seen.
 
I agree that there is no evidence of CD, and that stuff should go somewhere else :|
 
I agree that there is no evidence of CD, and that stuff should go somewhere else :|
The above would seem to be at odds with your earlier statement regarding your problem of NIST not addressing "the explosive collapses of the twin towers."
 
The above would seem to be at odds with your earlier statement regarding your problem of NIST not addressing "the explosive collapses of the twin towers."
Which isn't evidence of CD either. I'm just as critic to the investigation of the collapses as to the criminal leadings...
But yeah it did sound a little ambiguous. Sorry about that.
I just don't want this turning into yet another CD discussion, thats all. I really don't care if they were CD'd or not, I only judge the investigations and congress' motivation into them.
 

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