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Non-Homeopathic Belladonna

Huh? I'm saying that no matter how smart or educated you are, memory is unreliable - especially many years after the events, when it has been molded by numerous re-tellings (just guessing that he told the story of his daughter's amazing recovery to others), and involves a subject which requires an expertise to understand which you lack.
I don't understand your focus on "a subject which requires an expertise to understand which you lack." This issue couldn't be simpler: Five doctors tried in vain to help Aime over four years. Professor Dietrich and his wife didn't have to be medical geniuses to see with their own eyes that, during this long period of time, their daughter was suffering from constant seizures and wasn't developing mentally. So, in desperation, they turned to Cayce.

How someone remembers something happening is often not the same as how it happened.

(I can't believe I just said that.)
I don't disagree that memory can play tricks on us, but I really can't fathom a scenario where Dietrich somehow erroneously came to believe that five doctors had failed Aime over four years and then Cayce succeeded. I could buy a spontaneous recovery scenario, if Aime's condition had not persisted for such a long time. I could even buy a fraud scenario, if there were evidence that Dietrich had profited from his story. But a faulty memory scenario just doesn't ring true to me in this case.


Well, I found lots of studies involving sharp sticks, but I drew a blank with the custard.

Linda
To my knowledge, Cayce never recommended acupuncture.
 
Originally Posted by Mojo
Did anyone bother getting in touch with the five named doctors involved?
I don't know, but I'm not sure they would have been the most objective folks to talk with, considering their treatment of Aime had been useless.

I kinda like this. It makes anything Rodney wants to believe non-falsifyable.

If the physicians agree, their opinion is valid. If the physicians don't agree, they are lying to cover their tracks.

Linda
 
I don't understand your focus on "a subject which requires an expertise to understand which you lack." This issue couldn't be simpler: Five doctors tried in vain to help Aime over four years. Professor Dietrich and his wife didn't have to be medical geniuses to see with their own eyes that, during this long period of time, their daughter was suffering from constant seizures and wasn't developing mentally. So, in desperation, they turned to Cayce.

As an example, it requires expertise to know what the prognosis might be.

Also, your description doesn't match the description on the affidavit, where it stated that she had convulsions at irregular intervals. The description of those spells wasn't typical for seizures and the diagnosis given by the doctors was a type of nervousness, not epilepsy. She isn't described as getting worse and having constant seizures plus loss of mental abilities until she was six.

I don't disagree that memory can play tricks on us, but I really can't fathom a scenario where Dietrich somehow erroneously came to believe that five doctors had failed Aime over four years and then Cayce succeeded. I could buy a spontaneous recovery scenario, if Aime's condition had not persisted for such a long time. I could even buy a fraud scenario, if there were evidence that Dietrich had profited from his story. But a faulty memory scenario just doesn't ring true to me in this case.

Now you are doing it. With each retelling of the story, you move closer to a description of a lengthy, severe, unremitting affliction that very suddenly disappeared with Cayce's treatment. Yet if you go back to the original affidavit, what is described is a mild affliction that got worse when she was six, from which she recovered over the space of three months. If she had the "brain infection" (as the cause of the worsening) that one of the doctors gave as a diagnosis at the time, that course of events would be expected. The usual course for infection is that the patient gets worse until the immune system is adequately mobilized to overcome the infection. That Cayce became involved around the time of recovery is not unusual. It is often when things are at their worst that people seek treatment. What is likely to happen next is either that continued progession leads to death, or further progression is halted and overcome by the immune response. (This is, of course, grossly over-simplified.) It is very likely that the timing will usually lead to the appearance that Cayce's involvement has an effect, since the deaths will simply be dismissed as not bringing him in soon enough, and the credit for the improvements will be given to Cayce.

To my knowledge, Cayce never recommended acupuncture.

Of course not. He didn't have an accupuncturist as an assistant.

Linda
 
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I kinda like this. It makes anything Rodney wants to believe non-falsifyable.

If the physicians agree, their opinion is valid. If the physicians don't agree, they are lying to cover their tracks.

Linda
I'm simply saying that it's probably unrealistic to have expected any of the five doctors who treated Aime prior to Cayce's involvement to have said: "I had no idea how to help Aime, but apparently a man who never went to medical school cured her completely."
 
I'm simply saying that it's probably unrealistic to have expected any of the five doctors who treated Aime prior to Cayce's involvement to have said: "I had no idea how to help Aime, but apparently a man who never went to medical school cured her completely."

I was thinking that what makes doctors valuable is not that they are immune from the usual cognitive biases (they're not), but that they document the details beforehand. That is, their clinical notes serve as a source of (relatively) objective information before subsequent events start to rework memories.

Linda
 
As an example, it requires expertise to know what the prognosis might be.
Gee, I don't know, Linda, if a doctor tells me I'm gonna die soon, I would consider that a bad prognosis. But that's probably just me.

Also, your description doesn't match the description on the affidavit, where it stated that she had convulsions at irregular intervals. The description of those spells weren't typical for seizures and the diagnosis given by the doctors was a type of nervousness, not epilepsy. She isn't described as getting worse and having constant seizures plus loss of mental abilities until she was six.

According to the affidavit, BY age six, Aime "had as many as twenty convulsions in one day, her mind was a blank, all reasoning power was entirely gone." So, it's not clear when the seizures began to increase. Further, according to -- http://sociologyesoscience.com/esoterica/cbooks2.html -- Aime's "four-year-old history of convulsions had resisted all conventional medical treatment. The drama of the Dietrich case had already caught the attention of the local press, so when Aime recovered completely following Cayce's trance-diagnosis (he prescribed osteopathic adjustments, which Layne administered), the story spread all over Kentucky and Tennessee."

Now you are doing it. With each retelling of the story, you move closer to a description of a lengthy, severe, unremitting affliction that very suddenly disappeared with Cayce's treatment. Yet if you go back to the original affidavit, what is described is a mild affliction that got worse when she was six, from which she recovered over the space of three months. If she had the "brain infection" (as the cause of the worsening) that one of the doctors gave as a diagnosis at the time, that course of events would be expected. The usual course for infection is that the patient gets worse until the immune system is adequately mobilized to overcome the infection. That Cayce became involved around the time of recovery is not unusual. It is often when things are at their worst that people seek treatment. What is likely to happen next is either that continued progession leads to death, or further progression is halted and overcome by the immune response. (This is, of course, grossly over-simplified.) It is very likely that the timing will usually lead to the appearance that Cayce's involvement has an effect, since the deaths will simply be dismissed as not bringing him in soon enough, and the credit for the improvements will be given to Cayce.
If what you're saying is true, why did Dr. Hoppe tell Professor Dietrich that Aime's case was "hopeless" and that she would "die soon"? Rather, why didn't Dr. Hoppe tell Dietrich that there was at least some hope so that, if Aime did recover spontaneously, Hoppe would be the hero?

Of course not. He didn't have an accupuncturist as an assistant.

Linda
Perhaps, but I'm still waiting for some hard evidence that osteopathic adjustments could not have cured Aime.
 
Gee, I don't know, Linda, if a doctor tells me I'm gonna die soon, I would consider that a bad prognosis. But that's probably just me.

I'm trying to understand your point. You think that because Dietrich remembers Hoppe's take-home message as straightforward, that it must have been presented that way?

According to the affidavit, BY age six, Aime "had as many as twenty convulsions in one day, her mind was a blank, all reasoning power was entirely gone." So, it's not clear when the seizures began to increase.

The start of the sentence is "She was now six years old and getting worse..." which does give an indication.

Further, according to -- http://sociologyesoscience.com/esoterica/cbooks2.html -- Aime's "four-year-old history of convulsions had resisted all conventional medical treatment. The drama of the Dietrich case had already caught the attention of the local press, so when Aime recovered completely following Cayce's trance-diagnosis (he prescribed osteopathic adjustments, which Layne administered), the story spread all over Kentucky and Tennessee."

Yes, you have aptly demonstrated my point that repeating a story with small changes in wording each time can lead to quite different interpretations of what happened.

If what you're saying is true, why did Dr. Hoppe tell Professor Dietrich that Aime's case was "hopeless" and that she would "die soon"? Rather, why didn't Dr. Hoppe tell Dietrich that there was at least some hope so that, if Aime did recover spontaneously, Hoppe would be the hero?

If that is what he actually said, I would suspect that he said it because he thought that was what was going to happen, and that he didn't think there was hope. It's not particularly surprising that he got it wrong.

Perhaps, but I'm still waiting for some hard evidence that osteopathic adjustments could not have cured Aime.

I'm supposed to provide you with an education in pathophysiology?

Linda
 
I'm trying to understand your point. You think that because Dietrich remembers Hoppe's take-home message as straightforward, that it must have been presented that way?
Yes, because the affidavit was very specific. It did not say: "One of Aime's doctors told me she would not live much longer, which he said had been the case with others in her condition." Rather, the affidavit specified Dr. Hoppe and was also specific that Hoppe informed Dietrich that "only nine cases of this peculiar type were reported in Medical Records, and every one of these had proved fatal. He told us that nothing could be done, except to give her good care, as her case was hopeless and she would die soon in one of these attacks." It's not plausible to me that Hoppe said nothing of the sort and somehow Dietrich imagined that he did.

The start of the sentence is "She was now six years old and getting worse..." which does give an indication.
Yes, but the affidavit earlier stated: "Convulsions returned, at irregular intervals,with increasing severity. She would fall just like she was shot, her body would become perfectly rigid, the spells lasting from one to two minutes. This went on for two years, or until she was four years old." Presumably, things worsened from there, culminating two years later in what appeared to Dr. Hoppe to be a hopeless condition.

Yes, you have aptly demonstrated my point that repeating a story with small changes in wording each time can lead to quite different interpretations of what happened.
I don't think there is any room for interpreting Dietrich's affidavit to mean that Aime was really not in that bad shape when Cayce became involved.

If that is what he actually said, I would suspect that he said it because he thought that was what was going to happen, and that he didn't think there was hope.
Agreed.

It's not particularly surprising that he got it wrong.
But don't you think it's rather amazing that Cayce's intervention coincided with Aime being cured?

I'm supposed to provide you with an education in pathophysiology?

Linda
Let's put it this way: If you can demonstrate that osteopathic adjustments could not possibly have cured Aime of seizures or delayed development, that would go a long way to discrediting Cayce. Wouldn't that be worthwhile?
 
Yes, because the affidavit was very specific. It did not say: "One of Aime's doctors told me she would not live much longer, which he said had been the case with others in her condition." Rather, the affidavit specified Dr. Hoppe and was also specific that Hoppe informed Dietrich that "only nine cases of this peculiar type were reported in Medical Records, and every one of these had proved fatal. He told us that nothing could be done, except to give her good care, as her case was hopeless and she would die soon in one of these attacks." It's not plausible to me that Hoppe said nothing of the sort and somehow Dietrich imagined that he did.

You misunderstood me if you think I am implying that Hoppe said nothing of the sort and Dietrich imagined it.

We remember the exact meaning, rather than the exact words. The same words may have a different meaning to two different people, especially when one person uses them to convey an exact medical meaning and the other (without knowing what that exact medical meaning is) draws out the common meaning.

I'm not saying that Hoppe definitely said something different. I'm just saying that the affidavit will reflect what Dietrich thought was the meaning of the words, rather than the exact words. And it is possible that he did accurately capture the meaning of what Hoppe said, and Hoppe was simply wrong. As I said before, medical science would not have been advanced enough to understand this case. So Hoppe would have been unable to determine whether Aime really did represent another example of the nine cases reported in medical records (or whether those nine cases even represented a common process).

Yes, but the affidavit earlier stated: "Convulsions returned, at irregular intervals,with increasing severity. She would fall just like she was shot, her body would become perfectly rigid, the spells lasting from one to two minutes. This went on for two years, or until she was four years old." Presumably, things worsened from there, culminating two years later in what appeared to Dr. Hoppe to be a hopeless condition.

The "until she was four years old" is followed by a description of visits to other doctors, not a description of worsening symptoms. And the diagnosis was a type of "nervousness", hardly something that represents a severe condition.

This is an example of what I mentioned before. Dietrich's words allow for various, quite different interpretations, depending upon what you want the story to mean.

I don't think there is any room for interpreting Dietrich's affidavit to mean that Aime was really not in that bad shape when Cayce became involved.

I agree.

But don't you think it's rather amazing that Cayce's intervention coincided with Aime being cured?

But the timing of the intervention and the course of the disease are not independent. I already explained why the timing of Cayce's intervention is what I would expect. If the usual course of an illness is progressive worsening until the illness is checked by natural processes, which leads to progressive recovery, you will have some people who only become mildly ill and then begin to recover, some who become very ill and then begin to recover, and some who die as the natural processes did not check the disease soon enough. The magical healer is unlikely to be called in when the disease is only mild or moderate. It is usually those cases that continue to progress to the point that the disease is severe where the patient/family become desparate enough to start looking for magic. And it is at that point that the patient will either start to recover due to natural processes or die. As I mentioned earlier, deaths will be easily ignored, so all that's left are those that recover.

Let's put it this way: If you can demonstrate that osteopathic adjustments could not possibly have cured Aime of seizures or delayed development, that would go a long way to discrediting Cayce. Wouldn't that be worthwhile?

I have not seen any evidence that demonstrating anything to you leads to those results. I am skeptical that it would be worthwhile.

Linda
 
You misunderstood me if you think I am implying that Hoppe said nothing of the sort and Dietrich imagined it.

We remember the exact meaning, rather than the exact words. The same words may have a different meaning to two different people, especially when one person uses them to convey an exact medical meaning and the other (without knowing what that exact medical meaning is) draws out the common meaning.

I'm not saying that Hoppe definitely said something different. I'm just saying that the affidavit will reflect what Dietrich thought was the meaning of the words, rather than the exact words. And it is possible that he did accurately capture the meaning of what Hoppe said, and Hoppe was simply wrong. As I said before, medical science would not have been advanced enough to understand this case. So Hoppe would have been unable to determine whether Aime really did represent another example of the nine cases reported in medical records (or whether those nine cases even represented a common process).
Again, I have a great deal of difficulty getting around what Dietrich wrote in the affidavit. It is possible that Aime's condition differed from the nine previous cases that Dietrich says Hoppe referenced, but I would have thought Hoppe would have been a little more cautious if he was unsure about their relevance.

The "until she was four years old" is followed by a description of visits to other doctors, not a description of worsening symptoms. And the diagnosis was a type of "nervousness", hardly something that represents a severe condition.
In view of what later happened, it appears that the "nervousness" diagnosis was simply way off base.

This is an example of what I mentioned before. Dietrich's words allow for various, quite different interpretations, depending upon what you want the story to mean.
Again, I don't see that.

One out of six ain't bad. ;)

But the timing of the intervention and the course of the disease are not independent. I already explained why the timing of Cayce's intervention is what I would expect. If the usual course of an illness is progressive worsening until the illness is checked by natural processes, which leads to progressive recovery, you will have some people who only become mildly ill and then begin to recover, some who become very ill and then begin to recover, and some who die as the natural processes did not check the disease soon enough. The magical healer is unlikely to be called in when the disease is only mild or moderate. It is usually those cases that continue to progress to the point that the disease is severe where the patient/family become desparate enough to start looking for magic. And it is at that point that the patient will either start to recover due to natural processes or die. As I mentioned earlier, deaths will be easily ignored, so all that's left are those that recover.
Interesting scenario, but all reports of the Aime Dietrich case indicate that her recovery began as soon as Layne had properly performed the osteopathic adjustments. Still could have been a coincidence, but unlikely.

I have not seen any evidence that demonstrating anything to you leads to those results. I am skeptical that it would be worthwhile.

Linda
Okay, but it's not just me, it's many people who find convincing Kirkpatrick's book and other books about Cayce. And I think many of these people are not "true believers", but folks who still have open minds.
 
Again, I have a great deal of difficulty getting around what Dietrich wrote in the affidavit. It is possible that Aime's condition differed from the nine previous cases that Dietrich says Hoppe referenced, but I would have thought Hoppe would have been a little more cautious if he was unsure about their relevance.

How do you know he wasn't?

In view of what later happened, it appears that the "nervousness" diagnosis was simply way off base.

Why? What precludes the possibility that she had what it was reported that the doctors said she had - a milder affliction that affected her only as described (occasional spells) and then a "brain infection" when she was six characterized by change in mental status and seizures from which she recovered. Her father put the two together as the same illness, but the doctors didn't. Why assume he was right and the experts were wrong?

Again, I don't see that.

You hadn't noticed that you and I are extracting very different versions of the events even though we are both reading the same affidavit?

Interesting scenario, but all reports of the Aime Dietrich case indicate that her recovery began as soon as Layne had properly performed the osteopathic adjustments. Still could have been a coincidence, but unlikely.

All reports?

What was reported was that Layne treated her for three weeks. She began to show improvement after eight days and was fully recovered after three months. This would also be a typical timeline for recovery in the absence of intervention.

Okay, but it's not just me, it's many people who find convincing Kirkpatrick's book and other books about Cayce. And I think many of these people are not "true believers", but folks who still have open minds.

So "open minds" means "passively ignorant" as opposed to the active ignorance of closed minds?

Linda
 
Still could have been a coincidence, but unlikely.

Here you are expressing surprise that Cayce may have the characteristic which was used for selecting him as special in the first place. It's like having a room full of people each throwing five dice and declaring that the first person to throw all sixes has magical powers. When asked for proof that she/he has magical powers, you cite the fact that five dice coming up all sixes is very unlikely.

There have been and are many medical mediums. There have been and are many people that go into trances. With all that activity going on, events that are "unlikely" as a one-of affair, become likely when given a thousand opportunities. Even I occasionally throw a Yahtzee on the first toss of the dice.

Linda
 
How do you know he wasn't?
I would think with all of the publicity given to Aime Dietrich's recovery, Dr. Hoppe would have come forward to set the record straight, if what he said had been unfairly characterized.

Why? What precludes the possibility that she had what it was reported that the doctors said she had - a milder affliction that affected her only as described (occasional spells) and then a "brain infection" when she was six characterized by change in mental status and seizures from which she recovered. Her father put the two together as the same illness, but the doctors didn't. Why assume he was right and the experts were wrong?
Maybe because Aime was afflicted by seizures and delayed development for four years under the care of the "experts" and then promptly recovered after Cayce's reading and Layne's osteopathic adjustments?

You hadn't noticed that you and I are extracting very different versions of the events even though we are both reading the same affidavit?
I attribute that to you being hopelessly biased. ;)

All reports?
By "all reports", I mean that there are several reports of the Dietrich case going back to at least the October 9, 1910 NY Times article about Cayce, and all tell about the same story. Where are any newspaper articles or books presenting evidence that this story has been told incorrectly?

What was reported was that Layne treated her for three weeks. She began to show improvement after eight days and was fully recovered after three months. This would also be a typical timeline for recovery in the absence of intervention.
So you can cite other cases where a seizure-ridden and developmentally-delayed child recovered spontaneously after four years?

So "open minds" means "passively ignorant" as opposed to the active ignorance of closed minds?

Linda
I don't agree that they're "passively ignorant", they're just looking at the best available evidence.
 
Here you are expressing surprise that Cayce may have the characteristic which was used for selecting him as special in the first place. It's like having a room full of people each throwing five dice and declaring that the first person to throw all sixes has magical powers. When asked for proof that she/he has magical powers, you cite the fact that five dice coming up all sixes is very unlikely.

There have been and are many medical mediums. There have been and are many people that go into trances. With all that activity going on, events that are "unlikely" as a one-of affair, become likely when given a thousand opportunities. Even I occasionally throw a Yahtzee on the first toss of the dice.

Linda
Can you name another medical medium with a record as documented as Cayce's?
 
I would think with all of the publicity given to Aime Dietrich's recovery, Dr. Hoppe would have come forward to set the record straight, if what he said had been unfairly characterized.

He couldn't. To do so would violate patient confidentiality. Physicians cannot set the record straight when patients mischaracterize their care publicly.

Maybe because Aime was afflicted by seizures and delayed development for four years under the care of the "experts" and then promptly recovered after Cayce's reading and Layne's osteopathic adjustments?

Lovely example of the fallacy of circular reasoning.

I attribute that to you being hopelessly biased. ;)

I do recognize that I am hopelessly biased towards the objective evaluation of information. It pains me that this is generally considered a "bias" rather than SOP, but I am learning to deal with it.

By "all reports", I mean that there are several reports of the Dietrich case going back to at least the October 9, 1910 NY Times article about Cayce, and all tell about the same story. Where are any newspaper articles or books presenting evidence that this story has been told incorrectly?

We already know that the NY Times article about Cayce was inaccurate - articles and books have already presented evidence that he was not illiterate, for example. The newspaper articles can not be considered independent sources of information, since they are simply repeating (and changing) the story from the original source of the information.

So you can cite other cases where a seizure-ridden and developmentally-delayed child recovered spontaneously after four years?

Yes.

I don't agree that they're "passively ignorant", they're just looking at the best available evidence.

No worries then. If they are looking at the best available evidence, then they already know that Layne couldn't have cured Aime of epilepsy.

Linda
 
He couldn't. To do so would violate patient confidentiality. Physicians cannot set the record straight when patients mischaracterize their care publicly.
How would it have violated patient confidentiality for Dr. Hoppe to have said: "I cannot discuss the specifics of any of my cases but, if Professor Dietrich thought I told him that his daughter's case was hopeless, he misunderstood what I told him"?

Lovely example of the fallacy of circular reasoning.
Depends on your perspective. ;)


I do recognize that I am hopelessly biased towards the objective evaluation of information. It pains me that this is generally considered a "bias" rather than SOP, but I am learning to deal with it.
See my second response above.

We already know that the NY Times article about Cayce was inaccurate - articles and books have already presented evidence that he was not illiterate, for example. The newspaper articles can not be considered independent sources of information, since they are simply repeating (and changing) the story from the original source of the information.
The "illiterate" claim was wrong, but how do you know that the Times did no independent verification of Cayce?

And that case is . . . ?


No worries then. If they are looking at the best available evidence, then they already know that Layne couldn't have cured Aime of epilepsy.

Linda
So you say, but I'm still looking for proof of your contention.
 

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