Can this qualify as a challenge?

[Jackalgirl]

What if the baby had two heads? That's four eyes. How awesome would that be?

That's a really good point, Burner; conjoined twins are not all that uncommon.

 

[Ocelot]

Dear Dan O and Fellow Forumers,



Would you call the people “on this board who were able to correctly predict this outcome” as “psychics”? There were only two alternatives—either the spirit accepts or does not accept the Challenge.

I was very hopeful that the spirit would accept the Challenge to settle the question once and for all, as what my father said. Unfortunately, the spirit declined the Challenge. Without His participation, there is no way that I will be able to know the five numbers in even the first sealed box. I am very sorry that I have to withdraw from the Challenge.

I had to travel to the Philippines to talk to the spirit and the medium to personally present the details of the Challenge and get their approval. Even with that effort, I still failed.

Could you just use the prophecies as test of the spirit instead? How would you feel if this year, for example, a baby is born with three eyes? Never have I heard or read of any baby born with three eyes. In my right mind, I can never prophesy such because it is impossible and unnatural.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Peace Crusader

It took me all of twelve seconds to type "baby born with three eyes" into google. The results included this report on the aftermath of the Bhopal Union Carbide trajedy http://www.bhopal.org/achildisborn.html

From Which I quote

"Foetus from 1984 shows birth defects that are still showing up among the population in gas-affected districts of Bhopal. "Children are being born with deformities like cleft palate, three eyes, all fingers joined..."(The Lancet, 14 September 2002)"

Also we have the story of Bill Durks, variously billed as "The Man With Three Eyes" or "The Man With Two Faces" technically he only had one working eye but even so being born in 1913 can hardly be counted as evidence of predictive power.

So this POSTdiction has already come true. Don't get too excited. This is demonstration of nothing. Your spirit made these predictions in the early 90's. This one came true multiple times in the early 80's and once in 1913. It has happened before. Therefore it will happen again.

There are many things that the common man will believe to be impossible but which are actually just rare. If I predict that a man will be struck by lightening and 7 times but give no date, it will eventually come true. It has already happend once. Roy Sullivan holds this world record. Despite the old saying that lightening never strikes twice what has happened before will eventually happen again.

Since a baby has been born with three eyes before, it will eventually happen again.

In fact the prophesy is a little vague. It doesn't say human baby. Here we have a story of a baby fish born with three eyes in 2002. Or a baby calf from 2004

Here we have a three eyed baby from 2007. If you're prepared to take a piglet as fullfillment of your prophesy. (Piiig!)

Lots more examples here, this time cats.

If we're going to accept non-human babies then the tuatara, a lizardy type creature from New Zealand is always born with a third so called "parietal eye" We have something similar which has evolved into our pineal gland. It is perhaps possible that such an ogan may re-emerge as an evolutionary throwback in a human baby.

So no I wouldn't accept a three eyed baby as evidence that this prediction had come true. It's a weak prediction. No differnet in character from hundreds of others regualalrly made by hindreds of people many of whom are exposed charletans.

However since this form of birth defect is not beyond the realms of possibility I am prepared to agree with the prediction. Not through any supernatural means but simple laws of probability. In fact if you can let me know when the prediction was made I'm sure I can find some example since then that would fit your expectations.

Since the debate about whether HIV/AIDS is, has ever been, or ever will be, known as GOTCURAL; it might be helpful for you to state some of your prior expectations.

I've mentioned human events that happened before the prediction was apparently made. Are you prepared to agree that the predictions refered to events that would happen only after the prediction was made. (If not then I beleive the prediction to have been already fulfilled - but worthless)

The prediction only mentions three eyes. Often as we've seen this birth defect includes additional deformities: two noses, cleft pallette or two mouths. Will the prediction only be satified by a baby born with that single deformity or should we could expect the predicted event to include such examples as "two faced babies" - would a baby with four eyes fullfill the prophesy?

Must all eyes be functional?

You say the baby will be born. Would that include being delivered by ceasarian?

Would a stillborn baby fullfill the prediction?

let me know an I'll carry on digging. I feel it not unlikely that this prediction will be seen to have been fullfilled already.

 

[Cuddles]

I feel it not unlikely that this prediction will be seen to have been fullfilled already.

Holy spirit predicts the past! That's me convinced.

 

[Oualawouzou]

This has been said before but I think it ought to be repeated.

I have mentioned that it took me eleven years (1983-1994) before I accepted that the spirit is Jesus Christ. Can you make your scrutiny that long?

Before arguing on the identity of the spirit, you ought to demonstrate that there is a spirit at all. We don't care about weither or not this is Jesus Christ. We care about the fact it is a spirit at all

Changing the apparent gender of one's voice does nothing to prove possession. Off the top of my head, I can name at least 3 male imitators who make near perfect imitations of female personnalities, and one female imitator who does the same with male personnalities.

The prophecies have already been properly criticized. I don't know about you, but I doubt the "unprecedented sorrow" of the past 20 years reaches the scale of the "unprecedented sorrow" of the first two World War...

Prove there is a spirit at all. That is the extraordinary claim that would cause us all to fundamentally reconsider our conception of the world. Once we have agreed spirits do exist, we'll talk about which spirit is which.

ETA: Some people have looked into the matter of spirits for far longer than 11 years and have concluded it is baloney. You seem to think it is convincing to say you've looked into the matter for 11 years before reaching a conclusion; it is not. No proof gathered over 11 years makes for a much weaker argument than any amount of proof gathered over a 1 year period.

 

[Dan O.]

I've come up with a new saying:

When the works of men conflict with the works of God, the scientist believes the works of God and the fundi believes the works of men.

PC, You've obsessed with this charlatan for so long that you have lost track of the wonders that God displays every day.

Shishupala was born with four hands and three eyes, and upon his birth, he screamed like an ass.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Ocelot and Fellow Forumers,

Peace Crusader

It took me all of twelve seconds to type "baby born with three eyes" into google. The results included this report on the aftermath of the Bhopal Union Carbide trajedy http://www.bhopal.org/achildisborn.html

From Which I quote

"Foetus from 1984 shows birth defects that are still showing up among the population in gas-affected districts of Bhopal. "Children are being born with deformities like cleft palate, three eyes, all fingers joined..."(The Lancet, 14 September 2002)"

Also we have the story of Bill Durks, variously billed as "The Man With Three Eyes" or "The Man With Two Faces" technically he only had one working eye but even so being born in 1913 can hardly be counted as evidence of predictive power.

So this POSTdiction has already come true. Don't get too excited. This is demonstration of nothing. Your spirit made these predictions in the early 90's. This one came true multiple times in the early 80's and once in 1913. It has happened before. Therefore it will happen again.

There are many things that the common man will believe to be impossible but which are actually just rare. If I predict that a man will be struck by lightening and 7 times but give no date, it will eventually come true. It has already happend once. Roy Sullivan holds this world record. Despite the old saying that lightening never strikes twice what has happened before will eventually happen again.

Since a baby has been born with three eyes before, it will eventually happen again.

In fact the prophesy is a little vague. It doesn't say human baby. Here we have a story of a baby fish born with three eyes in 2002. Or a baby calf from 2004

Here we have a three eyed baby from 2007. If you're prepared to take a piglet as fullfillment of your prophesy. (Piiig!)

Lots more examples here, this time cats.

If we're going to accept non-human babies then the tuatara, a lizardy type creature from New Zealand is always born with a third so called "parietal eye" We have something similar which has evolved into our pineal gland. It is perhaps possible that such an ogan may re-emerge as an evolutionary throwback in a human baby.

So no I wouldn't accept a three eyed baby as evidence that this prediction had come true. It's a weak prediction. No differnet in character from hundreds of others regualalrly made by hindreds of people many of whom are exposed charletans.

However since this form of birth defect is not beyond the realms of possibility I am prepared to agree with the prediction. Not through any supernatural means but simple laws of probability. In fact if you can let me know when the prediction was made I'm sure I can find some example since then that would fit your expectations.

Since the debate about whether HIV/AIDS is, has ever been, or ever will be, known as GOTCURAL; it might be helpful for you to state some of your prior expectations.

I've mentioned human events that happened before the prediction was apparently made. Are you prepared to agree that the predictions refered to events that would happen only after the prediction was made. (If not then I beleive the prediction to have been already fulfilled - but worthless)

The prediction only mentions three eyes. Often as we've seen this birth defect includes additional deformities: two noses, cleft pallette or two mouths. Will the prediction only be satified by a baby born with that single deformity or should we could expect the predicted event to include such examples as "two faced babies" - would a baby with four eyes fullfill the prophesy?

Must all eyes be functional?

You say the baby will be born. Would that include being delivered by ceasarian?

Would a stillborn baby fullfill the prediction?

let me know an I'll carry on digging. I feel it not unlikely that this prediction will be seen to have been fullfilled already.

Thank you very much for your digging. They are informative. I have visited the linked websites you cited.

Three-eyed babies
I really did not know that there are already cases of three-eyed babies. I believe what the spirit meant is that these human babies (plural) will be born in any part of the world which have not even been affected by any chemical spill, such as in Bhopal, India. You may say that it is POSTdiction and not PREdiction but how about it they happen one after another, maybe months or a year apart? Or not caused by any chemical contamination that may attribute to mutation?

Unnatural and unbelievable but nevertheless true
Those prophecies I mentioned where revealed by the spirit. I am just sharing them to you—echoing them to you. They may be unnatural and unbelievable and impossible to occur but when they happen, we can say that they are nevertheless true. The spirit did not give the dates when they will occur, otherwise, these may have qualified for the challenge, if I understand Jackalgirl right.

GOTACURAL
From 1982 to 1984, I had been looking for a disease called GOTACURAL. Then in 1984, the disease that was affecting the gay community since the start of the decade was renamed as Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome or AIDS. Later that year, I came up with GOTACURAL as being AIDS by dividing the word into GOT, ACUR, and AL. In 1986, I asked the spirit if the disease GOTACURAL that He revealed in 1979 is AIDS. He said that it is. I asked if a cure will ever be found. He answered negative.

Other prophecies
You have cited the occurrence already of three-eyed beings. How about the other prophecies? World War III, kitten, cat, disappearance of all jobs around the world, turning of money to stones (i.e. money becoming worthless).

I just wish that when these prophecies happen, JREF would accept them as the Challenge. They only show what the spirit can do.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Oualawouzou and Fellow Forumers,

This has been said before but I think it ought to be repeated.

Before arguing on the identity of the spirit, you ought to demonstrate that there is a spirit at all. We don't care about weither or not this is Jesus Christ. We care about the fact it is a spirit at all

Changing the apparent gender of one's voice does nothing to prove possession. Off the top of my head, I can name at least 3 male imitators who make near perfect imitations of female personnalities, and one female imitator who does the same with male personnalities.

The prophecies have already been properly criticized. I don't know about you, but I doubt the "unprecedented sorrow" of the past 20 years reaches the scale of the "unprecedented sorrow" of the first two World War...

Prove there is a spirit at all. That is the extraordinary claim that would cause us all to fundamentally reconsider our conception of the world. Once we have agreed spirits do exist, we'll talk about which spirit is which.

ETA: Some people have looked into the matter of spirits for far longer than 11 years and have concluded it is baloney. You seem to think it is convincing to say you've looked into the matter for 11 years before reaching a conclusion; it is not. No proof gathered over 11 years makes for a much weaker argument than any amount of proof gathered over a 1 year period.

True, it took me eleven years (1983-1994) before I believed that the spirit appropriating Mrs. Alvaran’s body is Jesus Christ. Like you, I was a skeptic. I did not believe straight away but remained doubtful in spite of my talking to Him, recording our sessions, transcribing the sessions, translating them to English, His hinting that He is Jesus, His knowing us, our secrets, people we are in contact with, seeing His prophecies being fulfilled.

A person may be able to imitate one or more persons, and as you cited, a male with the voice of a female (Dame Edna?) or a female with the voice of a male. But how about the wisdom, the knowledge, of the one being imitated? Could an imitator talk about something that he does not know about which the person being imitated knows very well? For example, in science. The imitator may not know about genetics which the person imitated knows because it is his field of specialization; or about aviation, sports, business, religion, literature, languages, etc.

I will try to upload to my website the sounds of the entry and exit of the spirits of Ama and Mrs. Alvaran. The sound is the physical manifestation of the spirit. The change in voice may be the other, if you will accept.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[colin]

PC, it’s been pointed out repeatedly that these “prophecies” are way too vague. Twisting and torturing a past event in order to make it appear to fulfill a prophecy is very creative of you and it’s very nice of you to help the “spirit” (Mrs. Alvaran) fill in the blanks, but it’s completely useless as far as convincing skeptical people.
And saying something will happen between now and the next half a million years is equally useless.

Please pick one prophecy, preferably the one that will happen the soonest, and give us specifics on the event, place, date, and time.
That may be eligible for the MDC.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Dan O and Fellow Forumers,

PC, You've obsessed with this charlatan for so long that you have lost track of the wonders that God displays every day.

Who do you refer to as the charlatan? The woman Mrs. Alvaran or the spirit? I have mentioned before that Mrs. Alvaran is the medium whose body is being appropriated by a spirit who we call Ama. In 1994, I accepted that the spirit is that of Jesus Christ. It is in Him that I have faith.

Have I mentioned the wonders that God gave to me which made me become amazed? Did you know the meaning of the registration plate number 240 ICD of our car (2003)? Did you know the meaning of the registration plate number 486 IDE of the Toyota Echo economy car that I use for commuting (2006)? You may say that they are just coincidence? Are they?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[colin]

Dear Dan O and Fellow Forumers,
Who do you refer to as the charlatan? The woman Mrs. Alvaran or the spirit?

Mrs. Alvaran. There has been no evidence that the spirit exists.
Although to be honest, she may just be delusional. But I think a delusional person would accept the challenge where a con would not want to risk being caught.

All of the other dots you're trying to connect only show the great lengths that someone will go to in order not to have their faith shaken.

 

[Dan O.]

Have I mentioned the wonders that God gave to me which made me become amazed?

Yes, God gave you an obsession with numerology and not enough smarts to figure out that it is just chance.

PS: This is just an observation and not a personal attack.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Three-eyed babies
I really did not know that there are already cases of three-eyed babies. I believe what the spirit meant is that these human babies (plural) will be born in any part of the world which have not even been affected by any chemical spill, such as in Bhopal, India. You may say that it is POSTdiction and not PREdiction but how about it they happen one after another, maybe months or a year apart? Or not caused by any chemical contamination that may attribute to mutation?

Well, here's the problem, PC: already, you're interpreting. You say "I believe what the spirit meant...". If the prophesy is going to stand up to critical scruitiny here, this can't happen. The prophesy has to be so specific that it doesn't require you, or anyone else, to explain what it means.

Unnatural and unbelievable but nevertheless true
Those prophecies I mentioned where revealed by the spirit. I am just sharing them to you—echoing them to you. They may be unnatural and unbelievable and impossible to occur but when they happen, we can say that they are nevertheless true. The spirit did not give the dates when they will occur, otherwise, these may have qualified for the challenge, if I understand Jackalgirl right.

Having a "deadline" or "expiration date" is just one of the requirements. Requiring no form of explanation or interpretation is another big one. And, in the cases of events that happen (like bad weather, earthquake, wars, people dying, unhappiness, etc...) the prophesy has to be specific enough so that it's clear it wasn't just making a "cold read" on the world.

GOTACURAL
From 1982 to 1984, I had been looking for a disease called GOTACURAL. Then in 1984, the disease that was affecting the gay community since the start of the decade was renamed as Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome or AIDS. Later that year, I came up with GOTACURAL as being AIDS by dividing the word into GOT, ACUR, and AL. In 1986, I asked the spirit if the disease GOTACURAL that He revealed in 1979 is AIDS. He said that it is. I asked if a cure will ever be found. He answered negative.

Really, PC, we've been over this a million times. Please go back and read through the thread if you didn't understand it the first time. To recap: "I had begun looking..." i.e., you were trying to find something that would fit the prophesy -- i.e., you were interpreting. There was no disease called "GOTACURAL", so you had to take the word apart and make it fit AIDS. It has already been demonstrated to you that this word could be interpreted to mean things other than AIDS. This is nothing more than backfitting known information, as has been pointed out to you. That the spirit then confirmed your findings after the fact means nothing, I'm afraid. It is not proof that "GOTACURAL" was predicting AIDS. It is an after-the-fact interpretation. Again, that will not stand for the purposes of the Challenge. PLEASE do not present this prophesy again as something to be tested.

Other prophecies
You have cited the occurrence already of three-eyed beings. How about the other prophecies? World War III, kitten, cat, disappearance of all jobs around the world, turning of money to stones (i.e. money becoming worthless).

I already explained, in detail, what would be required; I specifically addressed the 'birth of kitten' story and explained what would be required for that to be acceptable. As for the other prophesies, they are all things that have happened before, and will happen again: wars happen all the time. The possibility of a great multi-national war is not unheardof. Children are born with features that could be interpreted as cat-like all the time. Money is constantly becoming worthless due to economic change. Likewise the loss of jobs as the world's economies shift and become more interdependent. None of this is a particularly interesting prophesy; it's like prophesizing that the sun will rise. Now, if the prophesy were saying that money would LITERALLY turn into stones, that would be something but, again, you've already interpreted it to be something mundane. Give us specifics: when, where, amounts, and a deadline, and we might be able to get somewhere.

I just wish that when these prophecies happen, JREF would accept them as the Challenge. They only show what the spirit can do.

No, I'm afraid all it will show is that the spirit is as capable of making educated guesses about what will happen in the world as anyone else with basic access to news services. That's what we've been saying all along.

 

[Loss Leader]

No, I'm afraid all it will show is that the spirit is as capable of making educated guesses about what will happen in the world as anyone else with basic access to news services.

I'm not sure how this fits in but I don't think Mrs. Alvaran actually has basic access to news services.

 

[Jackalgirl]

I'm not sure how this fits in but I don't think Mrs. Alvaran actually has basic access to news services.

I don't know either -- I guess that was an assumption on my part, given the general vagueness of her predictions (predicting normal things). I'd assume that she either has access to some basic news, or at least hears about it from friends, family, or other associates who do.

 

[Moochie]

Clearly you never heard of the Beatles.

The dingbat doesn't even have to travel that far back -- I nominate Robbie Williams as the new faux god of this century.

M.

 

[Moochie]

Dear Dan O and Fellow Forumers,



Would you call the people “on this board who were able to correctly predict this outcome” as “psychics”? There were only two alternatives—either the spirit accepts or does not accept the Challenge.

I was very hopeful that the spirit would accept the Challenge to settle the question once and for all, as what my father said. Unfortunately, the spirit declined the Challenge. Without His participation, there is no way that I will be able to know the five numbers in even the first sealed box. I am very sorry that I have to withdraw from the Challenge.

Don't sweat it, mate. It's the outcome we all knew would happen.

I had to travel to the Philippines to talk to the spirit and the medium to personally present the details of the Challenge and get their approval. Even with that effort, I still failed.

You'll get no sympathy from this heathen, you moron. You had a bloody holiday in the Philippines -- that's a lot more than most of us here have had in a month of Sundays.

Could you just use the prophecies as test of the spirit instead? How would you feel if this year, for example, a baby is born with three eyes?

How would you feel if I contacted the nearest loony bin and had you certified?

Never have I heard or read of any baby born with three eyes. In my right mind, I can never prophesy such because it is impossible and unnatural.

OK. Good. You show a semblance of sanity. I take back what I said, just before.

Now, since your mate in the Philippines showed infinite wisdom by refusing to subject herself to utter humiliation, I think it's high time you took your Jesus bags and hightailed on over to the Jesus threads elsewhere in this august forum.

Ciao,

M.

Moochie, please keep in mind that your membership agreement calls for being civil toward other members.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jmercer

 

[Oualawouzou]

Dear Oualawouzou and Fellow Forumers,



True, it took me eleven years (1983-1994) before I believed that the spirit appropriating Mrs. Alvaran’s body is Jesus Christ. Like you, I was a skeptic. I did not believe straight away but remained doubtful in spite of my talking to Him, recording our sessions, transcribing the sessions, translating them to English, His hinting that He is Jesus, His knowing us, our secrets, people we are in contact with, seeing His prophecies being fulfilled.

You have again side-stepped the most basic question of all: did you doubt the identity of the spirit for 11 years, or did you doubt there was a spirit at all for 11 years?

A person may be able to imitate one or more persons, and as you cited, a male with the voice of a female (Dame Edna?) or a female with the voice of a male. But how about the wisdom, the knowledge, of the one being imitated? Could an imitator talk about something that he does not know about which the person being imitated knows very well? For example, in science. The imitator may not know about genetics which the person imitated knows because it is his field of specialization; or about aviation, sports, business, religion, literature, languages, etc.

That's easy. Conmen do this all the time. On a much smaller scale, it happens every day and pretty much everybody falls victim to it at some point or another, through no ill will from the "faker" (who is merely out of his league). Stupid example: when I hear my father talk about computers, I cringe. People who listen to him think he knows a lot on the subject, but I know he doesn't. I can spot all the holes and inaccuracies in his explanations. But at the same time, I have a friend who is a comp tech: when I talk about computers, I see in his eyes that some things I say make him cringe, because they are inaccurate to a degree or another. I regard him as an authority on the subject; I bet that when he talks about comps to someone even more qualified than him, this person cringes because he'll spot lots of inaccuracies in what my friend is saying. And so on and so forth.

It is damn easy to fake knowledge of a subject, or to make basics knowledge look like expert knowledge. It all depends on the prior knowledge of the person you are talking to and the willingness of this person and others to contradict you.

How do you think conmen operate? By faking deep knowledge, usually about the most difficult fields of science (the word "quantum" springs to mind).

If the spirit wants to prove its all-knowledge, it has to tackle a subject that can:

1) easily be checked;
2) not easily be guessed or buried in technobabble.

Hence the standard "guess what's in the box" challenge. Simple, objective, can readily be checked, cannot easily be fudged.

I will try to upload to my website the sounds of the entry and exit of the spirits of Ama and Mrs. Alvaran. The sound is the physical manifestation of the spirit. The change in voice may be the other, if you will accept.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

I definitely accept these are sounds, without even having to listen to them.

There is no way these sounds may be accepted as proof of entry/exit of a spirit as there are no objective knowledge of what a spirit entering/leaving a body sounds like.

So, to recap:

1) What did you doubt for 11 years? The presence of a spirit, or did you accept the spirit's presence readily but doubted its identity?
2) What is this awesome knowledge that ought to prove a spirit is appropriating Mrs. Alvaran's body? For all the reasons repeated throughout this thread, the predictions do not fit the bill.
3) I know it's been asked before but I don't think you have provided an answer... What is your interpretation of Mrs. Alvaran's/the spirit's refusal to collaborate?

 

[yairhol]

Moochie is getting a little frustrated with our religious friend...
Relax and just have a laugh at what people would do in order to keep believing what they want to.
The outcome is that there is no challenge. PC will keep believing what he wants and we will continue on with our lives.

Regards,
Yair

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Now, God has started to reduce the population. I see this in AIDS and in wars and genocide.
...

...
Can you back this up with numbers? When has "god" started? Where exactly? By how much did this allegedly caring entity already "reduce" the population?

Because it looks to me like it's still growing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_of_the_earth

PeaceCrusader?

 

[EHocking]

I don't know either -- I guess that was an assumption on my part, given the general vagueness of her predictions (predicting normal things). I'd assume that she either has access to some basic news, or at least hears about it from friends, family, or other associates who do.

As PC has provided earlier in the thread, her "predictions" were in newspapers over 20 years ago and PC read about her in 1984, so I don't think we should assume that she is totally isolated as far as current news is concerned. Additionally, PC stated that he spoke to the "medium" in the Philippines from Australia - one can only presume by telephone - so again, I don't believe we should assume that the "medium" is not aware of world events at the moment nor in the past 20 years.