NIST Petition Demands Corrections

[hellaeon]

beachnut you are too casual with the way you accuse people of being liars.

Maybe it means little to you but for my generation being accused of lying is an attack against our honour.

I NEVER knowingly tell a lie unless it's a white lie designed to protect someone from being unneccessarily hurt.

Saying something untrue as a result of ignorance is not lying.

Saying something untrue when you know it's untrue IS lying.

You really should be more careful about your choice of words.

MM

Feel free to follow your own advice MM...

Now, the petition is pointless. I dont understand the tactic. NIST have had many forums for feedback and criticism. Why petition NIST with the same arguements that have been debunked again and again?

 

[beachnut]

beachnut you are too casual with the way you accuse people of being liars.

Maybe it means little to you but for my generation being accused of lying is an attack against our honour.

I NEVER knowingly tell a lie unless it's a white lie designed to protect someone from being unneccessarily hurt.

Saying something untrue as a result of ignorance is not lying.

Saying something untrue when you know it's untrue IS lying.

You really should be more careful about your choice of words.

MM

Truther are too casual with the way they pass on information which is not backed by facts and evidence. Doing that is, by definition, spreading lies. Ignorance is not an excuse for spreading lies, it is just ignorance and truthers are still telling lies.

Telling lies knowing or unknowing is an insult to all. Not looking up the lies of the 9/11 truth movement before spreading them is an insult to all. Saying something you hear from the 9/11 truth movement and passing it on, is telling a lie and truthers need to check their sources or suffer being called what they are; tellers of lies and hearsay.

Passing on false information is telling lies whether you know it or not, you should check your facts before spreading lies. Truthers need to look up the definition of lie and learn what they are doing.

Truthers should be more careful and find some facts before they let words flow.

 

[T.A.M.]

MM:

I am only human, and we all occasionally fail to act appropriately. I think I tend to be civil most of the time. I tend to only mock, when someone mocks or taunts first, and then only if I am in a sour mood.

You, however, are doing so repeatedly, without provocation. As a matter of fact, it seems you are behaving this way to do exactly that...provoke.

And if you are accusing me of living in a glass house, then you yourself should look at what you live in.

TAM

 

[Miragememories]

MM, did you take Apollo/Greening to task for coming here with a chip on his shoulder and accusing all "JREFers" of being "NISTians"? I don't remember that part in the thread. For that matter, do you believe that you are contributing to a civil discussion atmosphere by repeatedly voicing your opinion that we "JREFers" walk in lockstep and worship the NIST report?

First of all, I don't believe Dr. Greening accused ALL "JREFers" of being NISTians.

He referred to the "regulars" and I think he feels, and I have to agree, that Gravy is your unofficial leader.

My hope is that the individual that resides in us all will wake up in you JREF "regulars" and you will stop acting as if you own the JREF Conspiracy Forum. I'm sorry if it gets boring seeing the familiar but get over it. It happens in the LC Forum as well. You are guests here just like I am. You don't own this forum in spite of how many posts you've accumulated.

Any document, including the holy bible is not inviolate.

The NIST Report is no exception and if you are comfortable in your belief that it is a solid piece of work, then it shouldn't be necessary to 'dis' everyone who challenges it.

It shouldn't be necessary for people questioning the NIST Report to be experts, engineers, scientists, firefighters etc.

People should be able to raise a question based on a logical point of view alone. If it's faulty logic, you should have no problem 'taking it out'. What have you got to lose meeting people on their terms?

Hiding behind professional rhetoric is just laziness in my opinion.

You don't need math and science to defend every point of view.

The public wants to talk about 9/11 and they don't want to have to get an engineering degree before their opinions will be listened to.

Lets face it. Few of you have read that 10,000 page NIST report. Of those that have, how many can honestly say that after wading through all that material they have a crisp knowledge of what they read? Serious flaws, omissions and contradictions can easily be buried in a document that huge and the best amongst you would be unlikely to flag them.

Put your egos aside. No one is accusing you of writing the Official Story and you aren't required to defend it even though you believe it. The conclusion can be right even if the work behind it is erroneous.

I admire your belief because it casts a good light where I want a good light to shine.

Don't fault myself and other truth seekers because we don't see it the way you do. Prove us wrong..it's what any responsible caring individual wants. Don't use insults and mockery to do it. You only make fools of yourself in the process.

MM

 

[stateofgrace]

People who live live in glass houses should never throw stones.

MM

MM to a point I agree with you, there needs to be some form of constructive dialogue between those that think 911 was an inside job and those that do not. There are many issues that, in real life if we were ever to actually meet we would agree upon, but equally so there are many issues we would not agree upon.

I have seen your posts MM; I have seen how you are trying to use DR Greening post when he had a go at this forum for not engaging you guys in meaningful debate and discussing issues fully and scientifically. This is Dr Greening’s opinion and he is entitled to it. But from my perspective I see lots of guys simply parroting the same non factual based rubbish time and time again.

People tier of it MM, people tier of being called a supporter of war, a shill, a denier. I get fed up with simply trying to engage in meaningful debate with guys that blindly believe this only to be confronted with, time and time again the usual derogatory insults. So I respond, I get annoyed when I see other people pushing it.

You have to remember MM, that it is you that is promoting alternative theories, not me; you have to remember that it is you that is suggesting that Americans participated in mass murder of 3000 of their own. These are serious charges by any standard. I have never believed these conspiracies because to date there is always a more plausible explanation, there is always something that the people who promote these conspiracies over look. But for this I am labelled a shill,a Bush lover or whatever else you care to label me. So I respond in kind.

I have seen debate on this forum and other forums, serious debates simply disintegrate into meaningless insults. Unless you actively discourage this, unless you stand and call out any conspirator that resorts to such despicable behaviour, people will respond in kind. It is simple human nature.

the words that are written here, do not go away, the same way the word and insults from other forums do not go away. The demonising, the death threats, that are spewed out from the LCF remain, they are here for keeps. If you want to engage in any form of civil debate whatsoever, you will raise above all this, stop your own insults and condemn anybody that resorts to it, including your own side. If you do not, then you will be treated exactly the same way.

 

[gumboot]

No, but I can give you an accurate claim in Loose Change.

They claim that the buildings fell in approximately 10 seconds.

No they didn't.

-Gumboot

 

[Miragememories]

So are you suggesting that the truth movement does not tell lies, as beachnut is referring to in his original quote? Are all the mistakes they have made originated from ignorance rather than knowing deception?

I cannot speak for everyone in the truth movement.

I don't accept lying as an acceptable means of achieving a goal.

The truth movement is comprised of people of all all ages and all walks of life.

To expect that none of them would be ignorant or naive would be very disingenuous of you.

Certainly I've encountered many people on my side of the fence who are ignorant, bigoted, racist, liars and just plain evil doers. It's regrettable, but so is having JREF members labelling members who challenge the popular point of view as TROOFERS, TIN HATTERS, NUT CASES, FOOLS, IDIOTS etc.!

MM

 

[T.A.M.]

First of all, I don't believe Dr. Greening accused ALL "JREFers" of being NISTians.

Correct.

He referred to the "regulars" and I think he feels, and I have to agree, that Gravy is your unofficial leader.

Incorrect. Gravy is one of many here who have done a huge amount of research and are well versed in all areas of the 9/11 attacks. That does not make him anyones "leader", but think what you will.

My hope is that the individual that resides in us all will wake up in you JREF "regulars" and you will stop acting as if you own the JREF Conspiracy Forum. I'm sorry if it gets boring seeing the familiar but get over it. It happens in the LC Forum as well. You are guests here just like I am. You don't own this forum in spite of how many posts you've accumulated.

Correct.

Any document, including the holy bible is not inviolate.

Correct.

The NIST Report is no exception and if you are comfortable in your belief that it is a solid piece of work, then it shouldn't be necessary to 'dis' everyone who challenges it.

I am not sure that the "dissing" is due to the challenge, but the lack of evidence, logic, or scientific validity involved in the "challenges" to it. I will grant you, that when Apollo20 first came here, there was an initial "pounce" which happens often, but it was a reflex in response to what would usually have been just a rehash of the same old stuff...it was not, and soon this lead to some decent scientific discussion.

It shouldn't be necessary for people questioning the NIST Report to be experts, engineers, scientists, firefighters etc.

to question...no. To be taken seriously, it helps, but ultimately it is the logic, and scientific validity of the arguement that will determine whether the "questioning" is taken to be legitimate or simply whining.

People should be able to raise a question based on a logical point of view alone. If it's faulty logic, you should have no problem 'taking it out'. What have you got to lose meeting people on their terms?

Correct.

Hiding behind professional rhetoric is just laziness in my opinion.

You see it as laziness, I see it as having the proper education to discuss a complex topic.

You don't need math and science to defend every point of view.

Correct, but you need it to validly question the science and mathematical aspects of the 9/11 attacks.

The public wants to talk about 9/11 and they don't want to have to get an engineering degree before their opinions will be listened to.

Noone is stopping them from talking.

Lets face it. Few of you have read that 10,000 page NIST report. Of those that have, how many can honestly say that after wading through all that material they have a crisp knowledge of what they read? Serious flaws, omissions and contradictions can easily be buried in a document that huge and the best amongst you would be unlikely to flag them.

I havent read it all. Have you? I only talk, in scientific terms, about the areas I have read AND understand.

Put your egos aside. No one is accusing you of writing the Official Story and you aren't required to defend it even though you believe it. The conclusion can be right even if the work behind it is erroneous.

I defend the official story, because I believe it to be true, and I do not want those who are brand new to it, to be swayed by illogical, unsubstantiated HEARSAY.

I admire your belief because it casts a good light where I want a good light to shine.

Don't fault myself and other truth seekers because we don't see it the way you do. Prove us wrong..it's what any responsible caring individual wants. Don't use insults and mockery to do it. You only make fools of yourself in the process.MM

Remember YOU uttered the above words...I will bring them back to you from time to time.

TAM

 

[Miragememories]

Feel free to follow your own advice MM...

Now, the petition is pointless. I dont understand the tactic. NIST have had many forums for feedback and criticism. Why petition NIST with the same arguements that have been debunked again and again?

That is an opinion NOT A FACT.

MM

 

[gumboot]

What is the obsession of some Conspiracy Theorists with the whole "JREF" label thing? Are they that desperate for a "them and us" scenario?

Any conspiracy theorist who posts here is as much a "JREFer" as I am.

Frankly I'm getting just a little tired of this whole "JREF" nonsense, not to mention these constantly thrown accusations.

Since when did "refusing to believe whatever garbage I spew" = "bullying"?

I seldom see any personal attacks whatsoever from the skeptic posters here. I see them taking people to task for faulty logic, bad science, and swallowing theories without researching them properly.

Yet there seems to be this never ending whining from certain members of the forum about constantly being bullied. Frankly it sounds like some JREF members here just need a big bowl of HARDEN UP.

If you and your theory can't stand up to scrutiny, it's not worth being considered.

I am interested in one thing and one thing only. Facts. Cold, hard, irrefutable evidence. Political rhetoric, emotional arguments, or philosophy do not interest me in the least.

From now on I'm making for myself some ground rules to determine who is worthy of me engaging with.

1) I am not a "JREFer"
2) Neither Gravy nor any other member of this forum is my "leader"
3) I do not believe in any "official story"

Any person who argues from any of the above positions I will from now on consider divorced from reality, and will refrain from engaging in direct discussion about their specific arguments.

-Gumboot

 

[Miragememories]

Truther are too casual with the way they pass on information which is not backed by facts and evidence. Doing that is, by definition, spreading lies. Ignorance is not an excuse for spreading lies, it is just ignorance and truthers are still telling lies.

Telling lies knowing or unknowing is an insult to all. Not looking up the lies of the 9/11 truth movement before spreading them is an insult to all. Saying something you hear from the 9/11 truth movement and passing it on, is telling a lie and truthers need to check their sources or suffer being called what they are; tellers of lies and hearsay.

Passing on false information is telling lies whether you know it or not, you should check your facts before spreading lies. Truthers need to look up the definition of lie and learn what they are doing.

Truthers should be more careful and find some facts before they let words flow.

Ignorance unfortunately is commonplace.

You are right. People should do their best to check what they believe before they state it as fact,

Not doing so does not make them liars. It does make them sloppy and lose credibility when caught.

I think it is better to be well armed with knowledge then to trust people to always present true information in their posts.

If you don't like it, well all I can say is get over it..it's the way of the world. Some people worry about checking their details more than others. Calling people liars helter skelter, as you like to do, only diminishes your own currency.

I lose respect for what you have to say because you have so little control of how quickly you judge people.

Show people where they are wrong. Don't just dis them and call them liars!

MM

 

[Hokulele]

I cannot speak for everyone in the truth movement.

I don't accept lying as an acceptable means of achieving a goal.

The truth movement is comprised of people of all all ages and all walks of life.

To expect that none of them would be ignorant or naive would be very disingenuous of you.

Certainly I've encountered many people on my side of the fence who are ignorant, bigoted, racist, liars and just plain evil doers. It's regrettable, but so is having JREF members labelling members who challenge the popular point of view as TROOFERS, TIN HATTERS, NUT CASES, FOOLS, IDIOTS etc.!

MM

If lying is not an acceptable means of achieving goals, why do you allow people in the truth movement to do so without criticism? There have been several posters here who have used language and insults much stronger than "idiot", but supporters of the truth movement on this forum are silent in what can appear to be tacit support of these people.

Although people have accused several members of this forum of acting as a group, it has been demonstrated that unacceptable behavior is unacceptable, and will not be tolerated, even if those exhibiting that behavior "agree" with claims many on this forum support.

If you truly wish to diminish the amount of lying and invective, you may want to consider admonishing anyone displaying this behavior, not just those with opposing views.

 

[beachnut]

Ignorance unfortunately is commonplace.

You are right. People should do their best to check what they believe before they state it as fact,

Not doing so does not make them liars. It does make them sloppy and lose credibility when caught.

I think it is better to be well armed with knowledge then to trust people to always present true information in their posts.

If you don't like it, well all I can say is get over it..it's the way of the world. Some people worry about checking their details more than others. Calling people liars helter skelter, as you like to do, only diminishes your own currency.

I lose respect for what you have to say because you have so little control of how quickly you judge people.

Show people where they are wrong. Don't just dis them and call them liars!

MM

So you agree the truthers have zero facts, that is good you finally see some light.

I do not tell lies about 9/11, but I understand how ignorant people will ignore knowledge, logic, facts and evidence, they have no capability to use knowledge, logic and reason to realize what they are and what true evidence means. So how do we make ignorant people use facts instead of lies? How do we cure the truthers and help them use their mind in a logical way with facts and cure their ignorance on 9/11?

 

[Miragememories]

MM:

I am only human, and we all occasionally fail to act appropriately. I think I tend to be civil most of the time. I tend to only mock, when someone mocks or taunts first, and then only if I am in a sour mood.

You, however, are doing so repeatedly, without provocation. As a matter of fact, it seems you are behaving this way to do exactly that...provoke.

And if you are accusing me of living in a glass house, then you yourself should look at what you live in.

TAM

T.A.M. I know I live in a glass house.

I'm acutely aware of how I am probably perceived by the folks here.

I think you have moments of civility but for you the JREF group is a strong magnet and you always seem to choose them when 'push comes to shove'.

When Enigma showed up in the Debate What debate? thread attacking Dr. Greening, I didn't see one member step in and tell him to stop, and catch up on the thread before he put his foot in his mouth further. Had someone done so, Dr. Greening probably would have changed his mind about the JREF 'regulars'.

To say I act without provocation is to not walk in my shoes T.A.M.

You enjoy a comfortable existence here because you never say anything provocative except to TROOFERS. The regulars are your buddys and they don't have any quarrel with you.

Try leaving your cocoon for a change and see what it's like.

MM

 

[TraitorBasher]

I seldom see any personal attacks whatsoever from the skeptic posters here.

Have you tried getting a new prescription from an optician, or maybe adjusting your browser?

On a serious note, I notice you immediately split the forum into skeptics and non skeptics. we all know that by skeptics you mean supporters of the official story.

One of the few real skeptics I have seen on this forum was Russell Pickering. Just going through his threads now.

 

[TraitorBasher]

MM note that nobody would report Enigma to the mods for that, but any truther transgression would be pounced on. I believe it is very much a pack mentality.

 

[stateofgrace]

MM note that nobody would report Enigma to the mods for that, but any truther transgression would be pounced on. I believe it is very much a pack mentality.

So MM, here is a perfect example of labelling and categorising in a derogatory manner, will you condemn it?

Do you wish meaningful dialogue or is it better to demonise your critics?

 

[T.A.M.]

T.A.M. I know I live in a glass house.

I'm acutely aware of how I am probably perceived by the folks here.

I think you have moments of civility but for you the JREF group is a strong magnet and you always seem to choose them when 'push comes to shove'.

When Enigma showed up in the Debate What debate? thread attacking Dr. Greening, I didn't see one member step in and tell him to stop, and catch up on the thread before he put his foot in his mouth further. Had someone done so, Dr. Greening probably would have changed his mind about the JREF 'regulars'.

To say I act without provocation is to not walk in my shoes T.A.M.

You enjoy a comfortable existence here because you never say anything provocative except to TROOFERS. The regulars are your buddys and they don't have any quarrel with you.

Try leaving your cocoon for a change and see what it's like.

MM

1.The Enigma thing - I don't recall it, or if I was even online at the time. You may be right, I do not know. There is no doubt that no matter what forum you go on, there tends to be a "regular" group, with a "regular" pov, and those who believe it or choose not to oppose it, likely get much less grief. It is not the most neutral and fair of things, but it exists everywhere.

2. I have gone outside the cocoon, and I'll admit it was much harder, but I stood my ground. What made me leave (I believe it was DU) was the fact that no matter how sensible and logical my arguements were, I could not sway anyone...this occured before I changed my purpose from convincing my opponents, to convincing the audience.

TAM

 

[Miragememories]

MM to a point I agree with you, there needs to be some form of constructive dialogue between those that think 911 was an inside job and those that do not. There are many issues that, in real life if we were ever to actually meet we would agree upon, but equally so there are many issues we would not agree upon.

I have seen your posts MM; I have seen how you are trying to use DR Greening post when he had a go at this forum for not engaging you guys in meaningful debate and discussing issues fully and scientifically. This is Dr Greening’s opinion and he is entitled to it. But from my perspective I see lots of guys simply parroting the same non factual based rubbish time and time again.

People tier of it MM, people tier of being called a supporter of war, a shill, a denier. I get fed up with simply trying to engage in meaningful debate with guys that blindly believe this only to be confronted with, time and time again the usual derogatory insults. So I respond, I get annoyed when I see other people pushing it.

You have to remember MM, that it is you that is promoting alternative theories, not me; you have to remember that it is you that is suggesting that Americans participated in mass murder of 3000 of their own. These are serious charges by any standard. I have never believed these conspiracies because to date there is always a more plausible explanation, there is always something that the people who promote these conspiracies over look. But for this I am labelled a shill,a Bush lover or whatever else you care to label me. So I respond in kind.

I have seen debate on this forum and other forums, serious debates simply disintegrate into meaningless insults. Unless you actively discourage this, unless you stand and call out any conspirator that resorts to such despicable behaviour, people will respond in kind. It is simple human nature.

the words that are written here, do not go away, the same way the word and insults from other forums do not go away. The demonising, the death threats, that are spewed out from the LCF remain, they are here for keeps. If you want to engage in any form of civil debate whatsoever, you will raise above all this, stop your own insults and condemn anybody that resorts to it, including your own side. If you do not, then you will be treated exactly the same way.

All I can say is pick your fights.

You can't respond to every jerk out there.

I appreciate what you are saying.

I know what you face out there.

It's the whole world man! Keep that in mind. The text you are arguing with could be some doped up kid who won't have any recollection of the event in a few hours.

Were not all fools though.

Ignore the idiots and engage those that are thoughtful and honestly seem to give a damn.

I don't see the 9/11 controversy as a game. I have children and I worry about their future when I am gone.

I know I piss you people off but I'm sincere about my beliefs.

If you don't like that well I'm sorry but I'm not here to win a popularity contest.

I'm honest, I don't knowingly lie, and believe it or not I am willing to change my mind, but not without significant deliberation.

MM

 

[beachnut]

no facts yet? They could skip the petition and just ask the questions. Even the expert leaders of the truth movement seem to be challenged in the fact, logic, reason, and knowledge departments.