Canada Seal Slaughter begins

D'rok the Lacone said:
One thing that you should be aware of in all this (although I have no idea if this is true in Fitter's case) is that in some instances the cultural heritage in question is First Nations. Here's a factoid for you:

"Archeological evidence indicates that the Native Americans and First Nations People in Canada have been hunting seals for at least 4,000 years."

Also, if you visited some of these communities in Newfoundland and Labrador and Eastern Quebec, and saw what their lives really are, your perspective might change a little.

All in all, I won't lose any sleep if the commercial hunt ends, but I'm sure not going to condemn anyone for participating - especially First Nations people.
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Here's a question: Why do Native Americans/First Nations people get a free ride?

Society and cultures advance. That's progress.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for cultural traditions as long as they are not harmful. But if it is harmful, even if just to animals, it should be questioned, re-evaluated, and potentially eliminated.

And if it's another culture (such as the First Nation people) that are seperate from our own, we should still question it as a people. That doesn't mean we should necessarily force our culture upon others, but there are ways to encourage or discourage an activity than by force.



I also want to note that just showing archaeological (sp?) evidence that an activity was committed in the past, does not justify keeping that activity in existance, and does not give the people a free ride in continuing that activity. I mentioned honor killings, bride burnings, and the like above; if, say, honor killings were done for thousands of years, that does not mean it cannot be re-evaluated morally or logically.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to go insult seal hunters. Hell, I'm not even going to insult Tiffer's father. As he said, there weren't many jobs, his father went to work for money, fed his family, etc. Fine, that's great. But why does this mean that the activity must continue? Is there no other way of providing jobs to that area? Is the continued existance of seal hunting truly necessary? I dunno. Maybe. But the ideal, for me, is to end seal hunting; if it's a necessity, then it must stay around, but if it is not, then it should be ended. That's my view, and any call to "cultural heritage" just gets downright ridiculous to me. My problem wasn't with Tiffer's father's occupation, my problem is with Tiffer's attitude that it would be so incredibly sad to see the "culture" of seal hunting to die out. He acts as if we're trying to kill off the last of his great people or something...

It was once cultural to not let women attend schools. It was once cultural to not let blacks attend the same schools as whites. Our culture adapted and changed. It happens.

Oh, another thing about the First Nations people and the Native Americans: Warfare was one of their greatest cultural heritages. Tribal warfare was a big thing in their past, just as it was in European history. That does not make tribal warfare desirable today.
 
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Lonewulf said:
Here's a question: Why do Native Americans/First Nations people get a free ride?
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That's what I was thinking. I mean, have you ever seen the movie "Black Robe?" Those natives were sadistic in some cases, and made Abu Grab and Gitmo look like Disneyland. I would guess those guys clubbed their women from behind.

Although I like those igloo orgies and wife-swapping stories I've heard.
 
D'rok the Lacone said:
Because they deserve it:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/1998/01/07/natives980107b.html
http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/asp/gateway....ismFreeInitiative/speeches/Fontaine.shtml&hs=
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This is emotional rhetoric, too.

Here's a question: Why shouldn't we let blacks keep slaves?

Slavery was a cultural tradition in Africa, and in fact, we bought slaves from the Africans. Should African-Americans "deserve" to keep slaves, or should we endeavor to wipe out slavery for all people?

I am not wanting to eradicate the culture of the Native Americans, I am not wanting to convert them to any particular religion, and if they don't harm me, I won't harm them. They can keep their tales, their stories, their songs, their dances, their spiritual beliefs, and their history. I don't have a problem with that. That's the kind of philosophy of life I like and deal with on a regular basis. However, I question the action of seal hunting, and "because it's tradition" just doesn't fly with me. I'm sorry, but it's an emotional appeal that has no effect on me.

Questioning harmful actions or behaviors, regardless of who actually acts them out, is also a philosophy of life I live with. If a black man kills another black man, I'd personally convict him of murder and sentence him to the same punishment as if he killed a white man. Alternately, if a white man killed a black man, I'd convict him the same as if he had killed a white man. And I'd convict the black man and the white man to the exact same sentence. It doesn't matter who is doing it, it is the action itself that is the only determination of my judgement. (Youthful age and mental retardation/mental insanity is an exception to this, however)
 
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Lonewulf said:
This is emotional rhetoric, too.
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If you want facts I can dredge them up for you. The gist is that we (Canadians of European descent) bear a large part of the responsibility for the abysmal conditions many First Nations communitites face. If you want the dry-eyed version, we broke many treaties (legally binding) that we are now attempting to honour. In the issue at hand, there are not enough First Nations seal hunters left for them to be a threat to the overall seal population, so there is no reason why they should be forced or encouraged to give up their traditions.

Here's a question: Why shouldn't we let blacks keep slaves?

Slavery was a cultural tradition in Africa, and in fact, we bought slaves from the Africans. Should African-Americans "deserve" to keep slaves, or should we endeavor to wipe out slavery for all people?
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I don't normally like spouting off accusations of logical fallacies, but I have to call Equivocation on this one. Seals != slaves.
 
D'rok the Lacone said:
If you want facts I can dredge them up for you. The gist is that we (Canadians of European descent) bear a large part of the responsibility for the abysmal conditions many First Nations communitites face.
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...And?

If you want the dry-eyed version, we broke many treaties (legally binding) that we are now attempting to honour. In the issue at hand, there are not enough First Nations seal hunters left for them to be a threat to the overall seal population, so there is no reason why they should be forced or encouraged to give up their traditions.
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Fair enough, but I don't get the necessity for seal hunting?

If the problem is that they suffer abysmal conditions, and you want to rectify that abysmal condition, then that itself is an issue by itself. That is neither here nor there when it comes to seal hunting. While seal hunting allows them to provide food for their families, why not just provide them with more casinos? I hear the profit is quite good with those. Lots of chances to climb up the economic ladder.

Though I admit, there are legal grounds to argue from if there is a legal treaty that Canada signed with First Nations involving this particular tradition (or one that would involve all traditions)...

I don't normally like spouting off accusations of logical fallacies, but I have to call Equivocation on this one. Seals != slaves.
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No, but there are some kinds of tradition you want to get rid of, and others you do not. Obviously, an "Argument by Tradition" is not enough to convince you. I don't get why it should convince me.
 
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D'rok the Lacone said:
In the issue at hand, there are not enough First Nations seal hunters left for them to be a threat to the overall seal population, so there is no reason why they should be forced or encouraged to give up their traditions.
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To clarify, D'rok, is the slaughter done by First Nation hunters, or by white non-native Canandians, or both? My impression was that white Canadians (and Norwegians) are doing the hunting, and some here are excusing it because the orignial native populations did this for survival...And who buys the furs? Native populations?
 
steverino said:
To clarify, D'rok, is the slaughter done by First Nation hunters, or by white non-native Canandians, or both? My impression was that white Canadians (and Norwegians) are doing the hunting, and some here are excusing it because the orignial native populations did this for survival.
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Good point there.

If First Nation people hunt seals, that does not necessarily excuse non-First Nation people hunting seals.
 
Seems like there is a shallow, European vanity element to the seal industry, not just a native tradition.
 

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I believe that the only lawful seal hunting that should occur is that done by the natives for their own food or clothing and that's it. I don't believe the "commercial" hunt should be allowed.
 
Lonewulf said:
Fair enough, but I don't get the necessity for seal hunting?

If the problem is that they suffer abysmal conditions, and you want to rectify that abysmal condition, then that itself is an issue by itself. That is neither here nor there when it comes to seal hunting. While seal hunting allows them to provide food for their families, why not just provide them with more casinos? I hear the profit is quite good with those. Lots of chances to climb up the economic ladder.
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Are you aware of the parts of the planet we're talking about here? How many people do you think would visit a casino in Nunavut or in northern Labrador? Many of these communites are accessible only by Cessna. This is the Arctic and the sub-Arctic.
 
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steverino said:
To clarify, D'rok, is the slaughter done by First Nation hunters, or by white non-native Canandians, or both? My impression was that white Canadians (and Norwegians) are doing the hunting, and some here are excusing it because the orignial native populations did this for survival...And who buys the furs? Native populations?
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The majority of the commercial hunt is indead white Newfoundlanders. Keep in mind though, this has been a way of life for many centuries even for them - it isn't a cash grab. The first official commercial harvest was in 1723, but subsistence hunting by Newfoundlanders has been going on for 400 years or more.
 
D'rok the Lacone said:
Are you aware of the parts of the planet we're talking about here?
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Admittedly, I don't know much about Canada.

How many people do you think would visit a casino in the Nunavut or in northern Labrador?
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Give 'em something else, then.

"Abysmal conditions" by itself isn't quite a justification for future actions, if you can remove those abysmal conditions. For present or past actions, they are a justification (As in, "I had to steal a loaf of bread in order to survive"), but not in future actions (As in, "I will continue to steal, even though I am more than capable of providing for myself, or asking others to assist me even though they are more than willing to")
 
D'rok the Lacone said:
The majority of the commercial hunt is indead white Newfoundlanders. Keep in mind though, this has been a way of life for many centuries even for them - it isn't a cash grab. The first official commercial harvest was in 1723, but subsistence hunting by Newfoundlanders has been going on for 400 years or more.
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So, essentially, you're still going by the Argument of Tradition. If it isn't about the money, and it's done even by the Non-First Nation people (even assuming that the First Nation is an exception to all of this)...

Then where's your argument?
 
Lonewulf said:
So, essentially, you're still going by the Argument of Tradition. If it isn't about the money, and it's done even by the Non-First Nation people (even assuming that the First Nation) gets a break...

Then where's your argument?
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No real argument here...just providing the background info. I agree that traditions aren't sacrosanct, I'm just providing the context. Many of these people are portrayed quite unfairly by activists.
 
Lonewulf said:
"Abysmal conditions" by itself isn't quite a justification for future actions, if you can remove those abysmal conditions. For present or past actions, they are a justification (As in, "I had to steal a loaf of bread in order to survive"), but not in future actions (As in, "I will continue to steal, even though I am more than capable of providing for myself, or asking others to assist me even though they are more than willing to")
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It's not an easy problem to solve, we're working on it. In the meantime, I do not think they should be prevented from hunting.
 
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