Simple Challenge For Bigfoot Supporters

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fsol wrote:
What you seem to be able to do is make some guesses and then call everyone who doesn't agree with you ignorant.

Not really.
It's not "people who disagree with me" who are ignorant....it's people who can't acknowledge the obvious in that animation....that the fingers actually do bend.....who are ignorant.

And here are just two who can't acknowledge that the fingers actually bend.....in their own words...

LTC8K6 wrote:
Keep in mind that Sweaty has yet to show that Patty's fingers even bend at all in the PGF.

belz wrote:
All you can say for sure is that, on those two, non-consecutive frames, irrespective of camera angle, lighting, resolution and other important factors, the fingers SEEM to bend.

and:
I can acknowledge without problem that they seem to bend, but that the pictures are of far too poor quality to make a definitive statement,


I can ONLY think of these fine citizens as ignorant.....not necessarily stupid.......but definitely ignorant! :D

I'll leave them to enjoy their blissful state. :boggled:

Like I said when Hunster was banned from here.....this forum is a WASTE of time for anyone interested in intelligent discussions.

I congratulated him on his ousting......and I'm more than happy to walk away from this idiot parade. :)
 
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Actually I think they are behaving just as they should. There is no evidence that shows to any degree of certainty that what you see is fingers bending. What they seem to be saying is that if they are fingers and if the fingers bend then here is a list of reasons why it still doesn't make it any more likely that it is a real bigfoot in the film.

You, who are operating from a position of certainty, in the face of the evidence, seem to me to be being just willfully ignorant and deliberately dishonest in your characterisation of their arguments.

And you still haven't backed up your assertion about probablities with any numbers. Could it be because you have none?
 
This suggests that SweatyYeti is the troll responsible for everything. He's not. This forum contains several Bigfoot threads that account for a relatively small number of Bigfoot believers who found it within themselves to visit JREF and engage in argument.

It's a wonder any of us stay for more than two posts.

"In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

SY has debated with decorum, and gotten the usual thrashing from those who would be considered trolls on other boards, under that definition. The only "sensitive" topic in these threads seems to be the hoax hypothesis, and since he's attacking it as invalid I can see where you don't have much recourse but to try to characterise him as a "troll". Saves having to actually think, doesn't it?

You guys have managed to run off a couple of real experts with your derogatory and inflammatory messages. What do you get out of it?

There's ample evidence to indicate we're dealing with an unidentified North American hominid primate, and not a series of hoaxes, misidentifications, hallucinations or rampant mythology. Scoffing at the phenomenon, or characterizing proponents as trolls, bleevers, or woos isn't going to make it go away.

Do you really believe football pads can account for those shoulders? They would not widen the joints, only stick out beyond them.

No one who actually analysed the film, including NASI, found any evidence of a costume. Since no one seem to have tried to get an IM index for a guy in a suit, why don't you try that and see what kind of a fit you get?

NASI was a "they", BTW, not just Glickman.
 
It's not "people who disagree with me" who are ignorant....it's people who can't acknowledge the obvious in that animation....that the fingers actually do bend.....who are ignorant.

I can now see why you're not an actual scienst. For that, you'd have to be able to tell the difference between your perception and reality. For you, if it seems to bend, it DOES bend, no matter how crappy the video is.

I can ONLY think of these fine citizens as ignorant.....not necessarily stupid.......but definitely ignorant! :D

Sounds remarkably like it's proving a point I was making in another thread. No one ever admits to beign stupid, even when they are. Thanks, Slilppery.

Like I said when Hunster was banned from here.....this forum is a WASTE of time for anyone interested in intelligent discussions.

Huntster was interested in intelligent discussion ? I thought he said he was looking for a fight.

I congratulated him on his ousting......and I'm more than happy to walk away from this idiot parade. :)

Don't let that door hit you.
 
I asked Diogenes:

Can you actually show a change in size of the wrist bulge, Greg...by highlighting the frames?

Greg promptly produced this WONDER of intelligent analysis:

wristchg1.gif



Since Greg missed the basic point of the request...:boggled: ...to SHOW and HIGHLIGHT the CHANGE IN WIDTH of the arm....

I highlighted the width of the arms myself......

wristchg2.gif


I drew two lines of the exact same length....one on each arm.

Where is the difference in the width of the arm???

Can Greg come to the rescue and SHOW us? I doubt it.

YOU are the one with no clue, Greg. ;)
 
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Result....there is no evidence for a 'wrist bulge' and hence, no evidence of a hand inside the arm operating a fake hand.

Another skeptic tries to post something intelligent in the way of analysis....and fails. :)
 
It's quite interesting how the wrist bulges in time with the hand "bend", even though the frames are not sequential and do not show a continuous hand "bending" motion.

It's almost proof that the two are related. :D

Of course, Diogenes has pointed out these bulges before, all over Patty, and they were not denied at all, iirc. They were muscles bulging, iirc.
 
LTC8K6 wrote:
Of course, Diogenes has pointed out these bulges before, all over Patty, and they were not denied at all,

Greg did a great job pointing out the wrist bulge...didn't he? :rolleyes:

First he "highlighted it" without actually highlighting it.....and then it turns out there is no bulge at the wrist.
 
Do you really believe football pads can account for those shoulders? They would not widen the joints, only stick out beyond them.

With a padded costume, the shoulders are accounted for. It's not really a proper question because the costume is what it is. The padded shoulders and false arms give an illusion of genuine bulk and exaggerated proportions. That causes an IM analyst to give incorrect positions for the joints. They might be correct if it were actually an animal instead of a man in a costume. The suit causes at least two errors from illusion. First is that the shoulder joints are estimated to be higher than those of the man within. Secondly, those same joints are estimated to be wider than those of the man within. These factors combined with the extra long arms lead to an IM index that has very little to do with the guy inside.

The NASI IM index is flawed from the start because they measured it as if it were a Bigfoot, and then declared it a Bigfoot upon seeing their own results. That is totally screwed up.

If NASI were to do an IM index estimation of a realistic gorilla costume (such as from Gorillas in the Mist), they would come up with a gorilla IM index. But it's a guy in a costume! Don't you get it? :boggled:

No one who actually analysed the film, including NASI, found any evidence of a costume. Since no one seem to have tried to get an IM index for a guy in a suit, why don't you try that and see what kind of a fit you get?

The fact that NASI never did an estimate for a known costumed man just shows how truly sucky their report is. There is a damn good reason why real science has no time for reports that look like they were created by charlatans or carnival sideshow managers.
 
With a padded costume, the shoulders are accounted for. It's not really a proper question because the costume is what it is. The padded shoulders and false arms give an illusion of genuine bulk and exaggerated proportions.


So now you've got false arms? Prosthetics, like Meldrum said? With 1967 technology? Neither BH nor Morris said anything about false arms. BH's arms would have had to have been squashed between them.

The prosthetic hand for a recent sasquatch horror flick cost $10,000, BTW. That was just the hand.

That causes an IM analyst to give incorrect positions for the joints. They might be correct if it were actually an animal instead of a man in a costume. The suit causes at least two errors from illusion. First is that the shoulder joints are estimated to be higher than those of the man within. Secondly, those same joints are estimated to be wider than those of the man within. These factors combined with the extra long arms lead to an IM index that has very little to do with the guy inside.

The NASI IM index is flawed from the start because they measured it as if it were a Bigfoot, and then declared it a Bigfoot upon seeing their own results. That is totally screwed up.


Ahem. You already admitted you were wrong. NASI didn't do an IM index. Again, it's a ratio. Height, weight, breadth don't matter.

The shoulder breadth is a third wider than an average man's- and that's a ratio too.

If NASI were to do an IM index estimation of a realistic gorilla costume (such as from Gorillas in the Mist), they would come up with a gorilla IM index. But it's a guy in a costume! Don't you get it? :boggled:


No. And I don't think you do either.

"Morris inadvertently made one valuable contribution to real sasquatch research, by claiming that he told Patterson how to make the arms of his suit longer, by extending the hands, which were just gloves, on wooden sticks. Such an extension would be entirely below the elbow, and indeed any extension would have to be, since the elbows bend and straighten in the film, but a forearm extension long enough to match the relationship between total arm length and total leg length observable in the film would have to be so great that the arms would look ridiculously out of proportion. The arms of the film creature, while much longer, are proportioned about the same as those of a normal human.

A posting about this observation on the internet brought a response that the percentage which the long bones of the arm are of the long bones of the leg is called by physical anthropologists “the intermembral index” and the IM index is used as a standard way to distinguish one primate from another, presumably in studying skeletons. Humans have IM indices ranging around 70. All the great apes are over 100.The bones of the film creature aren't available for measurement, but observation of its movements provides a reasonable indication of where the joints are, and almost all estimates of its IM index have so far ranged in the 80's. Reuben Steindorf, a forensic animator who studied the film using a sophisticated computer program, says he expected to prove it showed a man in a suit, but instead found it had a way of walking totally unlike that of a human, and an IM index close to 90. (Korff, of course, says that Heironimus walks just like the creature in the film, but he said the same about Jerry Romney.) "

<emphasis mine>

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/response_si.htm

The fact that NASI never did an estimate for a known costumed man just shows how truly sucky their report is. There is a damn good reason why real science has no time for reports that look like they were created by charlatans or carnival sideshow managers.

Have you even read it?
 
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Result....there is no evidence for a 'wrist bulge' and hence, no evidence of a hand inside the arm operating a fake hand.

Another skeptic tries to post something intelligent in the way of analysis....and fails. :)

There's an interesting observation in the caption to Fig. 60 in Krantz' Sasquatch/Bigfoot Evidence, pg.118, which shows an artist's rendition of frames 61 and 72. They show "the right hand in about the same position, but separated by a full step. The earlier frame has the wrist bent outward slightly and the fingers somewhat curled. The later frame has the wrist extending straight and the fingers a bit more straightened out. Exactly this interaction between wrist bend and finger curl is normal in the hands of all apes, but not necessarily in humans."

Dang. That Roger thought of everything!
 
LTC8K6 wrote:
Let's just concede that Patty bends her hand and move on to Sweaty's next comedy exercise...

You got it, dude!


An interview with LTC8K6 for the "Skeptical Scientist" magazine.....

So, LTC...what's your take on this little 2-frame animation in which the fingers appear to bend?

The fingers are hitting the top edge of the thigh pad and bending.

Hmmm....something to consider....

Keep in mind that Sweaty has yet to show that Patty's fingers ever bend at all in the PGF.

Oh....I thought you just said they were bending?

Yes, I see Patty's calf hit her rubber fingers and bend them.

O.k....then what do you think is happening? :confused:

No fingers can be seen at all, in fact. I repeat, no fingers can be seen at all.

Ummm.....you're losing me, LTC. :boggled:


It could be hitting the fingers, thus bending them slightly and pushing the arm outwards and forwards slightly as well.

Ohhhhh yeah...I see what you mean...:)


No fingers can be seen at all, in fact. I REPEAT, no fingers can be seen at all.

But LTC...you just said it could be....:eek:

It may be that with this costume, the fingers bend a little with certain arm-swings due to the design of the costume. A strap may occasionally snag inside and pull on the hand/arm little.

OKAY....NOW we're gettin' somewhere!! ;)


No fingers can be seen at all, in fact. I REPEAT, no fingers can be seen at all.

But...:jaw-dropp

That could simply be blobs of color merging into and out of the background colors, appearing, when blinked back and forth, a bit like a hand curving.

Are you SURE, LTC??? I mean...you've been wavering a little here....:confused:


No fingers can be seen at all, in fact. I REPEAT, No fingers can be seen at all.

LTC....the boys from the home are coming for you :p ...you just sit tight.


It's quite interesting how the wrist bulges in time with the hand "bend", even though the frames are not sequential and do not show a continuous hand "bending" motion.

It's almost proof that the two are related.

Sure, LTC....you've proved it...beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Now let the nice men put the coat on you...it's cold outside. :D

And as they drive on down the road.....LTC is faintly heard saying.....

JUST AS I FIGURED, the hand never flexes at all, and we are just looking at artifacts manipulated by Sweaty!


Yup....blame it on Sweaty...:)
 
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From JREF's homepage.....

Be part of the JREF web community by engaging in intelligent discussions with both skeptics and non-skeptics from around the globe.

Yes...you'll learn a LOT here.
 
So now you've got false arms? Prosthetics, like Meldrum said? With 1967 technology? Neither BH nor Morris said anything about false arms. BH's arms would have had to have been squashed between them. The prosthetic hand for a recent sasquatch horror flick cost $10,000, BTW. That was just the hand.

I called the arms false because they give a false impression of great length and diameter (thickness). The wearer's arms are inside these, but aren't long enough to have the wearer's hands inside the false hands. The suit is designed to give the impression of very long and bulky arms. It's supposed to look like what a Bigfoot is supposed to look like.

Ahem. You already admitted you were wrong. NASI didn't do an IM index. Again, it's a ratio. Height, weight, breadth don't matter.

The shoulder breadth is a third wider than an average man's- and that's a ratio too.

Yeah, and I have to admit it again. It's my workload that's distracting me. Additionally, NASI does estimate the locations of the joints in the arms and legs - so that is another cause of a misstatement by me. I still maintain my point about not being able to locate joints when you are looking at a costumed man. That the shoulder is 33% wider doesn't really matter, because a costume can produce that measurement. The suit is meant to look like a big bulky creature, but the guy inside is smaller than the whole thing appears.

"Morris inadvertently made one valuable contribution to real sasquatch research, by claiming that he told Patterson how to make the arms of his suit longer, by extending the hands, which were just gloves, on wooden sticks. Such an extension would be entirely below the elbow, and indeed any extension would have to be, since the elbows bend and straighten in the film, but a forearm extension long enough to match the relationship between total arm length and total leg length observable in the film would have to be so great that the arms would look ridiculously out of proportion. The arms of the film creature, while much longer, are proportioned about the same as those of a normal human.

Morris may have told Patterson he could use sticks, but Roger didn't use them. We can't even tell what the hands look like. I never really see anything that looks like fingers. They sometimes look like stumps, sometimes mitten-like, and sometimes like solid semi-circles (cupped). The situation there is so bad that I think people who try to recreate Patty in drawings, statues, etc. really don't know what to do about the hands.

A posting about this observation on the internet brought a response that the percentage which the long bones of the arm are of the long bones of the leg is called by physical anthropologists “the intermembral index” and the IM index is used as a standard way to distinguish one primate from another, presumably in studying skeletons. Humans have IM indices ranging around 70. All the great apes are over 100.The bones of the film creature aren't available for measurement, but observation of its movements provides a reasonable indication of where the joints are, and almost all estimates of its IM index have so far ranged in the 80's.

Again, if it's a guy in a costume you can't properly locate the joints. It's been said umpteen times yet you just keep trotting it out. It's also been said that one can't get accuracy when trying to do this from a filmed subject.

Reuben Steindorf, a forensic animator who studied the film using a sophisticated computer program, says he expected to prove it showed a man in a suit, but instead found it had a way of walking totally unlike that of a human, and an IM index close to 90.

That's one of the most goofy things I've seen in my life. Patty looks like a walking man in a Bigfoot costume to all but a few people.

(Korff, of course, says that Heironimus walks just like the creature in the film, but he said the same about Jerry Romney.) "

Heironimus normally walks just like Patty. He has her style of striding and her arm swing. I'm not quite sure what Romney has to do with this. Bob confessed to wearing the Bigfoot costume that Roger made, and he tells the story of it. When he walks, he's a dead ringer for Patty.

Have you even read it?

Yeah, several times. The 7'3" - 1,957 pound ape jumps right out at me.
 
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William Parcher wrote:
That the shoulder is 33% wider doesn't really matter, because a costume can produce that measurement.
And here's what happens with shoulder extensions....you look like you have shoulder extensions.....

HH1.jpg


Harry's shoulders look as though they have minor extensions...certainly less than 33% wider than his normal shoulder width. Imagine how strange he'd look with even wider shoulders.
 
There's an interesting observation in the caption to Fig. 60 in Krantz' Sasquatch/Bigfoot Evidence, pg.118, which shows an artist's rendition of frames 61 and 72. They show "the right hand in about the same position, but separated by a full step. The earlier frame has the wrist bent outward slightly and the fingers somewhat curled. The later frame has the wrist extending straight and the fingers a bit more straightened out. Exactly this interaction between wrist bend and finger curl is normal in the hands of all apes, but not necessarily in humans."

Dang. That Roger thought of everything!

Since when is Bigfoot an ' ape ' ?



( Someone please quote me, to see if Lu will respond )
 
artist's rendition of frames 61 and 72

Was the artist a believer? An artist's rendition of hands and wrists that you can barely make out? That might be interesting enough for a trip to the library for some laughs. :D

Hey I know, why don't you animate some blurry, low res, unconnected frames of Patty's hands so we can see the hands bend?

Diogenes, Patty is an ape or a human or a blend, depending on the argument the believer is trying to win, or the point trying to be made.
 
So now you've got false arms? Prosthetics, like Meldrum said? With 1967 technology? Neither BH nor Morris said anything about false arms. BH's arms would have had to have been squashed between them.

The prosthetic hand for a recent sasquatch horror flick cost $10,000, BTW. That was just the hand.

I am trying really hard to see the relevance to the PGF here, but gosh darn it if it doesn't just look like you are trying to pull out that old "lengthened arms and bending fingers in a suit is impossible" nonsense that has already been covered numerous times already.

This is why these threads are so long. There is very little new infomation provided there is just...

"Look the fingers bend it can't be a suit!"

"Here is an article explaining and even showing just how suits were made back then to have bending fingers and lengthened arms."

"Look the fingers bend it can't be a suit!"


If it wasn't so amusing I could find it tragic.
 
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