[The real] Ph.D

[l0rca]

What colleges/universities out there are the most presitigious in the philosophy and similar humanities departments?

Also, what is the general outline of courses and classes a Ph.D in philosophy has? Does anyone know where I could find this information?

 

[Complexity]

Are you going for prestige or understanding?

Do you want to study philosophy or become a philosopher?

My advice: Turn your back on the academy, do things that you love, be open to the world, and live as well as you can.

 

[wunky]

Are you looking for certain schools of thought.
Particular approach.
Secular
Religious

 

[l0rca]

Mostly, I ask because I am simply interested in starting a discussion about philosophical institutions.

Are you going for prestige or understanding?

Is this a rhetorical question, or would answering it allow you to give me a more focused opinion?

I'd go for the school that offers the best distribution between comprehensiveness and excellence in teaching.

Do you want to study philosophy or become a philosopher?

I don't really define these two differences enough to make their questioning important.

My advice: Turn your back on the academy, do things that you love, be open to the world, and live as well as you can.

But I love the academic world. What if I want to become a professor, or write the textbooks?

 

[drkitten]

Is this a rhetorical question, or would answering it allow you to give me a more focused opinion?

It's not at all a rhetorical question :"Philosophy" is a huge discipline, and a school or department's reputation may or may not be deserved in all of the areas that it covers. (This is also true of other fields. MIT, for example, is one of the top universities in the world for formal Chomskian syntax. It's also one of the worst universities for non-Chomskian syntax, simply because of the enormous influence Chomsky wields over the department.)

However, one of the things that the overall reputation of a school will often control is the type of job you can get after graduating; a mediocre philosopher from Princeton can often, or even usually, get a better job than a top-notch philosopher from Whatsamatta U., on the basis both of personal contacts and institution reputation.

 

[Questioninggeller]

What colleges/universities out there are the most presitigious in the philosophy and similar humanities departments?

Also, what is the general outline of courses and classes a Ph.D in philosophy has? Does anyone know where I could find this information?

UC Berkeley is the top rated. Information about their program: http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/graduate/overview

APA's list is http://www.apa.udel.edu/apa/asp/departments.asp

What type of philosophy? Ethics, metaphysics, epistemology, logic, phenomenology and so on? Or an interest better served with theology, theological studies?

 

[drkitten]

UC Berkeley is the top rated.

According to whose rating?

II believe that USNews rates Harvard #1, Berkeley #2. (and rounds the top 5 out with Princeton, Yale, and Stanford). No doubt this has caused many loud discussions in Cambridge watering holes. But different rankers will have different criteria and different weights, and so get different rankings.

But more to the point, does this rating system include other, non-US, schools? It would be interesting to see where Toronto, Oxford, Cambridge, and some of the top Australian schools ranked against Harvard/Berkeley -- to say nothing of the non-Anglophone schools such as Paris-Sorboone.

 

[Questioninggeller]

According to whose rating?

II believe that USNews rates Harvard #1, Berkeley #2. (and rounds the top 5 out with Princeton, Yale, and Stanford). No doubt this has caused many loud discussions in Cambridge watering holes. But different rankers will have different criteria and different weights, and so get different rankings.

To directly name a school and a source: Michigan State U. is ranked as the top doctoral program in philosophy for the US. That is from Jan. 2007. Source: http://chronicle.com/weekly/v53/i19/19a00801.htm

In 1995 it was Princeton. Source: http://www.pitt.edu/utimes/issues/28/92895/13.html

However, as you noted Berkeley, as a whole (not department), is ranked #2 and Harvard as #1. From what I know about job placement (talking to PhD grads in philosophy) (you can see a basic outline http://philosophy.berkeley.edu/graduate/placement and http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~phildept/placement.html ) and job recruitment, Berkeley philosophy is slightly more prestigious, but I concur that it is splitting hairs. Yet, it is important to note applicants are based on their personal merit not the schools. Thus, one from Harvard and one from Berkeley, applying for the same job, are going to selected for their work, and not the school's reputation.

The most important part of a program is whether you like being there (the people, the classes, the subject). Rankings aren't important, and come far behind actual interest and human interaction.

But more to the point, does this rating system include other, non-US, schools? It would be interesting to see where Toronto, Oxford, Cambridge, and some of the top Australian schools ranked against Harvard/Berkeley -- to say nothing of the non-Anglophone schools such as Paris-Sorboone.

In terms of global, here is an article from 2002 that lists "top ranked," but without putting them in order. http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/about/news/articles/2002/11/0001.cfm

In terms of schools, not departments, http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2004/top500(1-100).htm

 

[Complexity]

I believe those 'or's to be exclusive, not inclusive.

Do as you feel you must.

 

[l0rca]

I believe those 'or's to be exclusive, not inclusive.

Do as you feel you must.

True enough. I'm really being inquisitive here. I can't even try to attend any of these schools until I'm not longer active duty, but I want to start pining towards that goal. I know an ameture's handful about philosophy, and much less when it comes to selecting an insitiution. My questions are blunt, and they reflect my presumptions. But I'm happy to see people care to inform me.

 

[drkitten]

True enough. I'm really being inquisitive here. I can't even try to attend any of these schools until I'm not longer active duty, but I want to start pining towards that goal. I know an ameture's handful about philosophy, and much less when it comes to selecting an insitiution.

Well, as Complexity hinted, you may be starting out at the wrong end when it comes to selecting an institution.

I have to counsel a lot of pre-Ph.D. students, and the advice I generally give them is "Don't." Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's generally a mug's game. Getting a Ph.D. is expensive, emotionally taxing, very time-consuming, and usually not worth the time and effort you need to give. In more detail, I find that there are generally three reasons that people want to get a Ph.D.

The first is simple emotional validation. Because people who have Ph.D.'s are smart, getting a Ph.D.will prove to me that I'm smart, even if I still fold shirts at H&M or the Gap for a living. Merely getting the Ph.D. will be an accomplishment that no one can ever take away from me, and it's worth it for that accomplishment, even if I never do anything with it. If this is what you're looking for, then "prestige" shouldn't really enter into it, yes?

The second is because you want the union card. If you want to lay pipe, you join the pipefitters' union. If you want to drive a truck, you join the Teamsters'. If you want to join the professoriat, you get a Ph.D.. In this case, prestige can be very important -- you will probably never work at a school better (or even as good as) the one you attended for your degree, so if you go to a second-rate school, you'll teach at a third-rate one forever. But there is such a Ph.D. glut at the moment (and into the foreseeable future) that the odds of your being able to land a professorial job at all are slim, probably less than one in ten. I don't consider those betting odds, and I try to steer students away from the idea of a Ph.D. as a professional advancement degree.

The third is because you love the discipline and want to spend the rest of your life doing it -- even if it means starving in a garrett for seven years and then folding shirts at the H&M and writing books on metaphysics in your spare time for the rest of your life. This, I think, is by far the best reason to get a Ph.D. (and oddly enough, it's the one most likely to lead to professional advancement, too. How "Alanic." Or maybe "Rolling Stones"-ic -- "You can't always get what you want.") But if this is the case, the important question isn't the prestige of the school, but the quality of the faculty and instruction. And more importantly, the quality in your particular area. If you want to study metaphysics, it doesn't matter how good the ethics and formal logic programs are, and vice versa.

The best way to pick a program is to figure out who you want to work with -- and then apply to the school where that person teaches. If you want to study consciousness, the top name in the field is Daniel Dennett. Today, he's at Tufts, so it's worth going to Tufts for. But if he accepted a position at UC-Santa Cruz for next fall, you want to go there instead. Because you're not studying at Tufts/UC-SC, you're studying with Dennett. See the difference?

 

[Questioninggeller]

But there is such a Ph.D. glut at the moment (and into the foreseeable future) that the odds of your being able to land a professorial job at all are slim, probably less than one in ten.

Are you strictly speaking about philosophy professorships? Because that is not true for all fields and subjects.

 

[drkitten]

Are you strictly speaking about philosophy professorships? Because that is not true for all fields and subjects.

Of course not. It's largely true for most if not all of the various "humanities" disciplines, though; I'd be hard-pressed to name one that didn't have that particular Ph.D. glut..

 

[joobz]

The third is because you love the discipline and want to spend the rest of your life doing it -- even if it means starving in a garrett for seven years and then folding shirts at the H&M and writing books on metaphysics in your spare time for the rest of your life. This, I think, is by far the best reason to get a Ph.D. (and oddly enough, it's the one most likely to lead to professional advancement, too. How "Alanic." Or maybe "Rolling Stones"-ic -- "You can't always get what you want.") But if this is the case, the important question isn't the prestige of the school, but the quality of the faculty and instruction. And more importantly, the quality in your particular area. If you want to study metaphysics, it doesn't matter how good the ethics and formal logic programs are, and vice versa.

that's good advice for any major life choice.

And I fully agree with selecting an advisor and not the school (if you can do that). In some fields, there are well respected individuals in science community that are at small schools, but have graduated students that went on to higher ranked institutions. (but this is in the sciences, so I do not know if that translates well.)

Also, and what I think is most important, is make sure you match personality well with your advisor. He/She may be the leader in the field, but if you hate each others guts (for whatever reason), it won't be a rewarding experience.

 

[3bz]

The best way to pick a program is to figure out who you want to work with -- and then apply to the school where that person teaches. If you want to study consciousness, the top name in the field is Daniel Dennett. Today, he's at Tufts, so it's worth going to Tufts for. But if he accepted a position at UC-Santa Cruz for next fall, you want to go there instead. Because you're not studying at Tufts/UC-SC, you're studying with Dennett. See the difference?

If you by top name mean the figure who is most well known to the public, then that would be Dennett. He has not published anything on consciousness for a good while though (in case someone mentions it, sweet dreams is a collection of papers from 2000-2003), he seems to be more interested in evolution and religion now, so it's not at all obvious that he should be called the top name in any other sense than as being a publicly well known figure.

Well written on the subject of Ph.D's, the economical and overall condition seems to be a lot harsher in the US than for us over here in Sweden. What you wrote still made me a bit less eager to go down that path however

 

[l0rca]

If you by top name mean the figure who is most well known to the public, then that would be Dennett. He has not published anything on consciousness for a good while though (in case someone mentions it, sweet dreams is a collection of papers from 2000-2003), he seems to be more interested in evolution and religion now, so it's not at all obvious that he should be called the top name in any other sense than as being a publicly well known figure.

Who would you said are, then?

 

[l0rca]

DrK', thanks for that.

I still want a degree it in. Perhaps a bachelors.

I'm more interested in logic than metaphysics. I don't think metaphysics is a fulfilling field in philosophy anymore. Though theories about consciousness do appeal to me in philosophy as well, I think I could learn about that on my own. The logic philosophies seem to be more fundamental and essential.

 

[3bz]

Who would you said are, then?

Baars is one of the first to come to mind, but also: Koch, Edelman, Metzinger, the Churchlands, Searle, Dehaene, Chalmers, Velmans and many others.

 

[l0rca]

Would you give some sort of summary? I guess not a summary of all, but in what direction it is heading? Whatever you feel like summarizing, I guess, would be nice of you.

 

[pgwenthold]

that's good advice for any major life choice.

And I fully agree with selecting an advisor and not the school (if you can do that). In some fields, there are well respected individuals in science community that are at small schools, but have graduated students that went on to higher ranked institutions. (but this is in the sciences, so I do not know if that translates well.)

Also, and what I think is most important, is make sure you match personality well with your advisor. He/She may be the leader in the field, but if you hate each others guts (for whatever reason), it won't be a rewarding experience.

Personally, no. Can still be professionally rewarding.

When counseling prospectives, my suggestion is the following: find out what are the most prestigious journals in the field, grab a stack, and start reading. Find the articles that you find interesting and note who wrote it and where they are from (regardless of whether you understand it all or not). Continue until a pattern develops, in terms of people, location, or topic (if it is a topic, then you will need to do more research to find the top places that work on that topic). Apply to the places that best cover your pattern of interests.

(if you can't understand any of it, then stop, go back, and learn something in the field before you worry about grad school)

Remember that first and foremost, a PhD is a research degree, and you don't want to pick a program based on classes or coursework. By chosing the most prestigious journals, you will come across the best work being done in the field, and you can discover the kind of work that interests you within it.