Should prostitution be legal?

[Miss Anthrope]

How do they do it? That's what I want to know. If prostitution is legal, why can't any job be made partly prostitution? With the consent of anyone willing to take the position, of course.

It's a simple matter of taking a job as a sex worker or not as a sex worker.

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Thanks, fluwenol, I think I'll use it for my next Traveller character.

ZOMG, Traveller?? I have not played that in years! A fun game, but a bit of a mess with all the rulebooks and stuff, IIRC.

Legalized prostitution has been Australia for about 20 years, right? How is that social experiment going? Has there been a reduction in street prostitution and sex trafficking? Are prostitutes safer, healthier and wealthier then they were before the legalization?

It is going pretty well, from what I know of it. Note that not all prostitution is legal, what is legal are brothels and massage parlors. Street walking is still illegal. Pretty much all brothels are very respectible businesses now - check out that link I posted earlier in the thread to the Daily Planet.

Personally I see nothing wrong with legalising prostitution. Next step - legallising Marijuana!

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[Lonewulf]

Personally I see nothing wrong with legalising prostitution. Next step - legallising Marijuana!

You damn hippy.

 

[dann]

Prostitution Reality Check

Notice the difference between the imagined motivations for prostitution and reality.
And we are not even talking about your ridiculous fantasies!

Australian studies in law, crime and justice: Entrance into prostitution
“An immediate contrast with the imagined motivations for entering prostitution suggested by the health-workers and students presents itself. Whereas the non-prostitutes supposed that drug addiction and pimp manipulation were high level motivations for becoming prostitutes, the reality of the prostitute sample is that these feature quite low among motivations. The economic motives of unemployment, supporting families and pursuing higher incomes given by the prostitutes as reasons for their own entrance into the sex industry do coincide more closely with the assumed motives given by the non-prostitutes. Another economic motive often overlooked by non-prostitutes is that of offering commercial sex in order to pay for an education, for money needed to take an overseas trip, to pay off debts, to purchase a car, house or other large expensive item, or for some other specific purpose.”

Burnout among female indoor sex workers
“Only sex workers' mean score on depersonalization was significantly higher than that of a comparison group of female nurses and comparable to those of another comparison group of patients with work-related psychological problems. Evidence was provided for the importance of experiential and context-related factors in burnout among indoor sex workers. For instance, 42% of the variance in depersonalization was explained by not working by choice, negative social reactions, experiences of violence, and lack of control in interaction with clients. Depersonalization may be a strategy to cope with negative conditions and experiences in sex work, but was significantly related to indicators of stress and emotional exhaustion.”

Youth prostitution: a literature review
“It argues that whatever the power of personal experiences which incline a person towards prostitution, prostitution can still only be possible in specific cultural conditions. The phenomenon of prostitution has the sexual double standard, poverty and an unequal labour market as prerequisites. We should not expect prostitution to either disappear or occur with equal frequency in men and women while these aspects of inequality continue.”

Professional HIV risk taking, levels of victimization, and well-being in female prostitutes in The Netherlands

Alcohol and drug use in heterosexual and homosexual prostitution, and its relation to protection behaviour
“Alcohol and drug use was found to be relatively common among prostitutes.”

Risky life, risky business: AIDS risk of female prostitutes in the context of early abuse and well-being
” About 1 in 20 (4.3%) had experienced abuse both in their youth and adulthood. Only 1 in 5 women (22.8%) had not experienced any abuse, not even in their work. 57% of the respondents had experienced violence of one form or another in their work (physical or sexual violence). 45% of the women escaped abuse in private life (from being forced into prostitution, physical or sexual violence), while about 50% of them also experienced abuse in private life, in most cases associated with their work in prostitution.”

Prostitution crackdown
“We need to focus on the underlying social problems which force men, women and children into prostitution, such as family breakdown, drug misuse, child abuse, domestic violence and debt.”

And was it any different a hundred years ago? No, not really.
Prostitution and Victorian Society: Women, Class, and the State
“Throughout the Victorian period, most prostitutes remained, in Abraham Flexner’s phrase, the “unskilled daughters of the unskilled classes.” In one late-Victorian study of London prostitutes interned in Millbank prison, the fathers of over 90 percent of the sample were unskilled and semiskilled workingmen. Over 50 percent of these women had been servants, largely general servants; the rest had worked in equally dead-end jobs, such as laundering, charing, and ….”

 

[dann]

I forgot this beautiful invitation to a merry afternoon at the local brothel:

English Collective of Prostitutes:
“Most are single mothers who are just trying to put food on the table, and until they tackle that, these proposals are a waste of time.”

Don’t you feel a little weird being one the guys who consider this a wonderful opportunity, a way of gettin’ some from a single mother with no better way of feeding her children than by selling her sexual favours to you?

 

[brodski]

I forgot this beautiful invitation to a merry afternoon at the local brothel:

English Collective of Prostitutes:
“Most are single mothers who are just trying to put food on the table, and until they tackle that, these proposals are a waste of time.”

Don’t you feel a little weird being one the guys who consider this a wonderful opportunity, a way of gettin’ some from a single mother with no better way of feeding her children than by selling her sexual favours to you?

You have yet to show why selling sexual labour is any different from selling any other labour. You find it distasteful, I have detailed my account of why I do not think that it is universally seen as distasteful by the women themselves.
Who are you to make that judgment for them?

In fact your own literature shows that in many cases the women who go into prostitution do so in order to afford luxury items such as holidays or to fund themselves through university, rather than because they are on the economic scrapheap.
Which demonstrates that for some women at least, it is more “distasteful” to miss out on a university education, or even a luxury holiday, than to become a prostitute.

Can you demonstrate that their values are wrong?

 

[The Great Hairy One]

Dann,

That's all well and good. I don't think any of us here are arguing that prostitution should be the career of choice for everyone. What we are saying - and none of your links argue against it - is that prostitution should be legal. Making it illegal simply adds more stress, more problems and much more danger on top of the issues you identified there.

Not one of those papers argues in favour of illegalising prostitution!

From those papers (the ones which links work - some are broken), it seems that the core issue with prostitution is the negative social stigma attached to prostitution. Seems that people need to be more accepting of the prostitutes themselves. This would remove a lot of the stress and strain of the job. Part of this would be making it legal.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[The Great Hairy One]

And I really liked "Figure 4.5 : Reasons given by prostitutes (n=128) for entering prostitution" from the Australian paper.

Cheers,
TGHO

 

[andyandy]

it's good to see that even in a poll with 3% disaproval we can get to 200+ posts of argument

 

[The Painter]

Legalize it. Not a big deal. Technically, you’re not paying for sex; you’re paying them to leave.

 

[brodski]

it's good to see that even in a poll with 3% disaproval we can get to 200+ posts of argument

Many people say that sceptics are naturally argumentative, I disagree.

 

[dann]

Oh my, we are so very considerate of the poor women's right to be prostitutes, aren't we?!
What Hairy does not seem to understand no matter how many times I point it out to him is that I never argued for or against legalization. Having prostition as the better career choice forced upon a woman by the forces of economy is not exactly an argument for the criminalization of prostitution. Nor is it an argument for legalization.
The kind of "stress and strain of the job" that I would like to "remove a lot of" for these women is having to suck your d*** for money. With the circumstances of economy being as they are, some women don't have any problems getting through college because they have rich parents. Others don't have this kind of background and support.
I can see why some of you seem to enjoy this fact!

... I do not think that it is universally seen as distasteful by the women themselves.
Who are you to make that judgment for them?

Go back and read the Australian statistics. There aren't many women who actually enjoy this line of work. See what happens to people who are prostitutes. It's all in the statistics, not in my "judgment"! But I can see that reality does not affect you as long as you have heard about one who lived to tell the tale and didn't think that it was all bad.

In fact your own literature shows that in many cases the women who go into prostitution do so in order to afford luxury items such as holidays or to fund themselves through university, rather than because they are on the economic scrapheap.

Yes, for some women it appears to be necessary to sell sex in order to be able to afford going on a holiday. Some women cannot get a college degree unless they pay their way through college by being prostitutes.

Which demonstrates that for some women at least, it is more “distasteful” to miss out on a university education, or even a luxury holiday, than to become a prostitute.

Yes, apparently! The prospect of supporting themselves by means of McJobs for the rest of their lives does not appeal to them. I can't blame them! (I can see that the holidays have now grown to become "luxury holidays"!)

Can you demonstrate that their values are wrong?

I'm sorry that I can't get it through to you, but I've never criticized their 'values'. Is it really so hard for you to grasp? I have criticized the very poor alternatives that these women have to choose between.

 

[andyandy]

so what is your point?

That not all [or many] prostitutes enjoy their jobs?
That socio-economic considerations are likely an important determining factor in a person's decision to become a prostitute?

is that it?

 

[dann]

And I really liked "Figure 4.5 : Reasons given by prostitutes (n=128) for entering prostitution" from the Australian paper.

You mean the fact that 36,7 percent are unemployed and 18,7 percent have to support a family? Or are you thinking of the addicts or the ones who have debts or have to pay their way through college?
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/lcj/working/ch4-2.html
No, I guess you are probably thinking of the 3,1 percent allegedly in the business for sexual pleasure, aren’t you? And the prostitute giving you a b.j. belongs to the 3,1 percent, of course ….

 

[dann]

so what is your point?

That not all prostitutes enjoy their jobs?
That socio-economic considerations are likely an important determining factor in a person's decision to become a prostitute?

is that it?

I have been saying the same thing since my first post in this thread, #103:

Should prostitution be legal?

If it weren't for all the strawmen some of you might have understood it sooner: Apart from (apparently) 3 percent these women aren't prostitutes because they enjoy having sex. Maybe this percentage will get through to those of you who aren't able to distinguish between sex and prostitution.

Prostitution is a question of poverty, not of sex.

 

[andyandy]

I have been saying the same thing since my first post in this thread, #103: If it weren't for all the strawmen some of you might have understood it sooner: Apart from (apparently) 3 percent these women aren't prostitutes because they enjoy having sex. Maybe this percentage will get through to those of you who aren't able to distinguish between sex and prostitution.

Prostitution is a question of poverty, not of sex.

and what? I agree. It's largely irrelevant to the question as to whether prostitution should be legal.

As you regard Should prostitution be legal? to be "a very stupid question" one has to wonder why you've spent such a long time in a thread posing it. Questions of how best to regulate the prostitution industry are hardly "stupid" in any case - it is strange that you think they are.

The question you pose as an alternative " Why do some women have to resort to prostitution to provide for themselves and, sometimes, for their families?" is an interesting one but nevertheless rather distinct from that of the OP.

 

[dann]

It is more than distinct from that of the OP. It criticizes the OP and the arguments in favour of either legalization of or prohibition against prostitution.

 

[Alt+F4]

There aren't many women who actually enjoy this line of work. See what happens to people who are prostitutes.

I agree with you that probably the vast majority of women don't enjoy being prostitutes. Those who think they do it because it's easy work or because they love sex are mistaken.

Of course, I can think of many non-sex jobs that people would find distasteful as well.

Men paying women for sex is never, ever going to stop so there needs to be some protection for women in this "industry". Even if only half of them are protected from pimps and sexaully trafficing, then legalizing it is a good idea.

 

[andyandy]

It is more than distinct from that of the OP. It criticizes the OP and the arguments in favour of either legalization of or prohibition against prostitution.

in what way? Just saying "that's stupid!" is hardly a great argument. You do seem to have rather a naive world view.... Prostitution exists whether you wish it did or not. The question is therefore how best to legislate to provide the best outcome for those who are involved in the business. A long term approach to seek to end the socio-economic conditions which force many women into prostitution is laudable but nevertheless only part of the solution. To stick one's hands over one's ears and "la la la la la la" your way through such considerations is rather strange - what do you suggest instead? That the question as to how to best regulate the prostitution industry should not be asked?

 

[dann]

That's right, all I do is say "that's studpid!" and be naive, stick my hands over my ears and "la la la" my way through the serious considerations rampant in this thread. I even shut my ears to the undoubtedly serious recommendations to some of the contributors of this thread that they go see a prostitute. The serious fans of regulated prostitution for the sake of protecting the prostitutes don't have any problems agreeing with serious libertarians who would rather have the state leave the prostitutes alone to take care of their entrepreneurship. Everybody's primary concern is the welfare of the prostitutes and .... it does not even occur to a single of you that statements like this are completely idiotic:

... sex work is no different than flipping burgers, flying airliners, or running a Fortune 500 company.

As if a single one of you would come up with the idea of polls like:
Should flipping burgers be illegal?
Should flying airliners be illegal?
Should running Fortune 500 companies be illegal?

Sex work is very different from running a Fortune 500 company, nobody ever confuses the two, but for the sake of our fantasies of prostitution we'll argue for just about any non-sensical claim. (See my sig line!)