Can this qualify as a challenge?

[Dan O.]

Have we just witnessed a miracle?

Only 2 days ago PC mailed the application and already we are talking about a test as if protocol negotiations have been completed. I could never believe that the post office would allow a letter to be delivered that quickly.

 

[Jackalgirl]

Have we just witnessed a miracle?

Only 2 days ago PC mailed the application and already we are talking about a test as if protocol negotiations have been completed. I could never believe that the post office would allow a letter to be delivered that quickly.

Well, I'm not assuming that -- I realize that the protocol negotiation phase will probably take longer than PC thinks, despite all of our (ad nauseum) explanations of how detailed and thorough a final protocol is likely to be.

But it does appear that PC has dropped my test (the 5-number test) in favor of pursuing a test with JREF. Which is fine by me. His decision to do so doesn't particularly change my opinions about what's going on, and I predict that he will be unpleasantly surprised both by the controls JREF will require AND by the reaction of the medium, whom I predict will strenuously object to those controls (if she does not outright refuse to participate).

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Well, I'm not assuming that -- I realize that the protocol negotiation phase will probably take longer than PC thinks, despite all of our (ad nauseum) explanations of how detailed and thorough a final protocol is likely to be.

But it does appear that PC has dropped my test (the 5-number test) in favor of pursuing a test with JREF. Which is fine by me. His decision to do so doesn't particularly change my opinions about what's going on, and I predict that he will be unpleasantly surprised both by the controls JREF will require AND by the reaction of the medium, whom I predict will strenuously object to those controls (if she does not outright refuse to participate).

...which is exactly why I asked PeaceCrusader a third time.

(Bolding by me.)

 

[Loss Leader]

I think PC still intends to bring back Jackalgirl's five numbers. That test is to help him prove to himself that he is not wasting time going forward with the JREF. Otherwise, why is he traveling to the Philippines?

 

[Jackalgirl]

...which is exactly why I asked PeaceCrusader a third time.

(Bolding by me.)

Indeed, and I appreciate your pursuing this matter, too. That really is the crux of the whole thing: the fact that PC is willing to pursue the Challenge is cool, but it all falls apart if she refuses to cooperate.

 

[Jackalgirl]

I think PC still intends to bring back Jackalgirl's five numbers. That test is to help him prove to himself that he is not wasting time going forward with the JREF. Otherwise, why is he traveling to the Philippines?

Well, I've always gathered from the thread that PC is traveling to the Phillipines to take the JREF Challenge documentation to the medium, explain it to her, and see if she'll have a go. PeaceCrusader, is that an accurate summary of the reason for your trip?

My worries are that I'm not 100% convinced that you (PeaceCrusader) really understand the Challenge. For example, you stated that you were worried that you might miss the deadline if your letter arrived at JREF after April 1. But it clearly states on the Challenge page that "[a]ny applications postmarked by April 1, 2007 will be processed under the exiting rules." Unless, of course, you don't understand the term "postmarked", which is possible.

Assuming you do, however, means that you probably haven't read the documentation very thoroughly. Also, I'm worried that -- even though you don't believe this -- there is the distinct possibility that this lady is a sham. If that's the case, you will probably be completely over your head: if you're not prepared for shenanigans, and you're trying to present materials with which you're not completely familiar, it is a recipe for disaster.

But at least the protocol you've suggested (items in a box placed at a remote location) is within the realm of controllability. How, exactly, would you run such a test? I'm asking for peanut-butter-and-jelly instructions here, by which I mean step-by-step details. A set of instructions that, if followed by two separate groups with no contact with one another and no prior knowledge, would result in them both conducting the test exactly the same way. So we'd need to know:

1) how many people are involved?
2) What specifically will they be doing?
3) what kinds of items, and how many total (that is, how many in the pool of items to be chosen from) will there be?
4) exactly how will they be selected? I assume "randomly", but how?
5) how will the medium and the people setting up the test communicate that a) the test is ready to commence and b) results have been obtained?

But wait! you later mention a protocol with ten boxes, so I should add "how many boxes"? Are there going to be numbers in those boxes? Or items? What specific protocol are you proposing to JREF (including all its steps)? If you post it here, we can save you a lot of time.

 

[Loss Leader]

A set of instructions that, if followed by two separate groups with no contact with one another and no prior knowledge, would result in them both conducting the test exactly the same way. So we'd need to know:

[derail]

This reminds me of this stupid management training thing I went to years ago where the facilitator asked us to close our eyes and fold a piece of paper in half. Then we opened our eyes and some people had folded it lengthways and some had folded it sideways. This was supposed to show us ... something.

[/derail]

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Yairhol and Fellow Forumers,

PC, you are not correct in saying that all first-born Egyptians were killed around midnight just to demonstrate that the God of Moses is the true God.
God told Moses to free the people of Israel from Slavary forced on them by the Egyptians. After the Egyptian Pharoh refused to free them, god started the 10 "curses" (they were not exactly curses but I don't know how to call them in English). After each "curse" the Pharoh was given the chance to free the Israelites but did not do so. Only after the last "curse" which was that all first born Egyptian son was to be killed, did he finally free the Israelites.
The curses were not given to the Egyptians in order to prove that god is the real god but to free the people of Israel.
Please be more accurate in the future when stating the bible.

Thank you,
Yair

Did this killing of the first-born Egyptians occur? I believe so. The plague passed over the Israelites. That is why the Israelites have been celebrating the Passover Festival for over 3000 years despite invasion of Israel, their exile to Babylon, their dispersal to different places by the Romans, the Holocaust. This festival is the living proof that it did happen.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Davide and Fellow Forumers,

PC,

You personally might or might not learn something reliable about yourself, Mrs. Alvaran, and the spirit from the 50-numbers test. The reliability of what you learn depends critically on many details of the test, including how the numbers are generated, who knows what they are before the test, who is present at the test, what the spirit is asked, how the results are recorded, and how they are checked. The reason all of these and other details are important is that humans can easily fool themselves and others, often quite innocently, and sometimes to defraud one another.

I want to be sure you understand that because everyone here knows people can fool themselves and others, passing the 50-number test won't impress the people on this forum. We all know that details such as those I outlined are critical and that, for the 50-number test, none of us here know them. Having the spirit provide the list the five numbers Jackalgirl Loss Leader are holding would be a much stronger test in my view. And I'm sure others here would agree.

If you wish to push us down the road toward believeing what you believe about the spirit, carrying out the 5-number test would be much more effective than the 50-number test.

Your help in developing the details of the protocol is much welcome.

I believe that the five-number test of Jackalgirl is already included in the preliminary test. If the preliminary test is passed, then it is as if Jackalgirl's test has also been passed.

I do not know if the preliminary test is a repetition of the formal test, i.e. ten times in a row of correctly giving the five number of each set. Maybe, as a preliminary, it may not be as many, say five sets only, just as a foretaste of what is to come. What do you think? I understand that no one has gone through the preliminary test as yet.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear GzuzKryzt and Fellow Forumers,

I allow myself to ask again, PeaceCrusader: Have you contacted Mrs. Alvaran yet (before you sent the application) and got her and the "spirit's" approval to cooperate on the test, i.e. have you specifically asked her to work with you for the purpose of the Million Dollar Challenge?

I believe the spirit will agree to these tests. One of my purposes of going to the Philippines is to talk to Mrs. Alvaran and the spirit regarding the Challenge. I will inform you of the result of our discussion.

I have done what I think need to be done to beat the April 1, 2007 deadline. With your and Jeff Wagg's help, I became clarified that I can be the applicant with Mrs. Alvaran as the assistant.

I wish to inform you that if the Challenge is successful, I would not have any single cent of the prize money. I will donate to a charity or charities any amount that may be due me. The spirit, I believe, will not like that we make any financial gain this way. I leave the decision of how the prize money will be divided to the spirit.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Cuddles]

I believe that the five-number test of Jackalgirl is already included in the preliminary test. If the preliminary test is passed, then it is as if Jackalgirl's test has also been passed.

Yes, but the whole point of Jackalgirl's test was to see if you could actually do anything to make it worth applying for the challenge. The idea is that you test yourself in an informal setting to see if what you propose for the actual challenge will work. If you can't pass her test then there is no point applying for the challenge using the same protocol. On the other hand, if you can then it lends some weight to your claim and can help you learn exactly how you would run the real test.

I'm not sure how you think the challenge works, but there is exactly no chance that you will have a protocol and contract all signed up by the time you go on this trip, it take much longer to sort everything out. The point of Jackalgirl's test is that you can do it very easily and quickly on this trip.

 

[yairhol]

Dear PC and fellow Forumers,

Let's start by stating something that should be very obvious: Celebrating an ancient old festival is not proof of anything. It does not matter which celebration it is. It could have been that a nice story was told over the years based on some exaggerated happenings and this turned into a celebration of something that has never really happened as told.

Secondly, The festivals of passover are not for the 'plague' of the first born son skipping over the Israelites. Nor is it for the 9 others which preceded it (or so the story tells). Passover is celebrated for the freeing of the Israelites from the Egyptian slavary. This is the reason of Passover. Although the holiday got its name because the story tells us that god passed over the doors of the Israelites but the plagues are just a small part of the whole meaning of the holiday and a small part of the story of freeing the Israelites from the Egyptians.

Regards,
Yair

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,

...which is exactly why I asked PeaceCrusader a third time.

Indeed, and I appreciate your pursuing this matter, too. That really is the crux of the whole thing: the fact that PC is willing to pursue the Challenge is cool, but it all falls apart if she refuses to cooperate.

I firmly believe in what the spirit can do that is why I was bold enough to apply for the Challenge. Mrs. Alvaran may have some hesitancy just like when the spirit first appropriated her body in 1957. But I have experienced and seen wonders what the spirit can do. I have cited to you some of them which are in my website.

I do not want to make money this way although it is tempting as I am about to retire and still have a mortgage to pay. I firmly believe that He will provide but I think it will not be through this Million Dollar Challenge. That is why this morning, it came to my mind that any prize money that may be due to me, I will donate to a charity or charities. The spirit can tell us which one(s).

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,

Well, I've always gathered from the thread that PC is traveling to the Phillipines to take the JREF Challenge documentation to the medium, explain it to her, and see if she'll have a go. PeaceCrusader, is that an accurate summary of the reason for your trip?

My worries are that I'm not 100% convinced that you (PeaceCrusader) really understand the Challenge. For example, you stated that you were worried that you might miss the deadline if your letter arrived at JREF after April 1. But it clearly states on the Challenge page that "[a]ny applications postmarked by April 1, 2007 will be processed under the exiting rules." Unless, of course, you don't understand the term "postmarked", which is possible.

Assuming you do, however, means that you probably haven't read the documentation very thoroughly. Also, I'm worried that -- even though you don't believe this -- there is the distinct possibility that this lady is a sham. If that's the case, you will probably be completely over your head: if you're not prepared for shenanigans, and you're trying to present materials with which you're not completely familiar, it is a recipe for disaster.

But at least the protocol you've suggested (items in a box placed at a remote location) is within the realm of controllability. How, exactly, would you run such a test? I'm asking for peanut-butter-and-jelly instructions here, by which I mean step-by-step details. A set of instructions that, if followed by two separate groups with no contact with one another and no prior knowledge, would result in them both conducting the test exactly the same way. So we'd need to know:

1) how many people are involved?
2) What specifically will they be doing?
3) what kinds of items, and how many total (that is, how many in the pool of items to be chosen from) will there be?
4) exactly how will they be selected? I assume "randomly", but how?
5) how will the medium and the people setting up the test communicate that a) the test is ready to commence and b) results have been obtained?

But wait! you later mention a protocol with ten boxes, so I should add "how many boxes"? Are there going to be numbers in those boxes? Or items? What specific protocol are you proposing to JREF (including all its steps)? If you post it here, we can save you a lot of time.

You are really methodical in your ways, Jackalgirl. And you go into details. They are needed for the protocol to establish that the tests are objective and verifiable and without the hocus focus of a magician.

I have not read the Challenge page indicating the acceptance of applications postmarked April 1, 2007. But to me, in order to be on time and without any hitch because of technicality, I mailed the application last Friday, March 23, 2007, hoping that it will reach the JREF's office by this Friday, March 30, 2007. Anyway, I got an assurance from Jeff Wagg that even if the application arrives just after April 1, 2007, it will still be accepted.

I understand that the preliminary test will not be held during my ten-day stay in the Philippines this April. Details of how the tests will be conducted are still to be established with JREF. But basically, it will be as stated in the cover letter of the application.

I am willing to travel to the Philippines during the preliminary test and the formal test at my own expense.

I, just like the other listeners of the spirit, do not believe that Mrs. Alvaran is a sham. Our experience is real and most of the time, our sessions are held in broad daylight with even some listeners very, very near Mrs. Alvaran. One time, I even saw someone putting her ear on the head of Mrs. Alvaran just to prove that the sound comes from the fontanel and not from the nose or mouth of Mrs. Alvaran.

I have been open to you. I state my actual whole name, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, and not hide under some pseudonyms. When the preliminary test, and later the formal test, are conducted, you may invite journalists to write about the tests. They may pick out stories direct from what I stated in this forum.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[GzuzKryzt]

PeaceCrusader, your intention of donating the JREF Prize money to a charity is most nobel. Mentioning it twice should suffice for now.

However, without Mrs. Alvaran's assistance there is no test, let alone a successful one. You would have had to sort this out before an application, since it forms an integral part of your test setup.
Your approach reminds of someone going to a doctor without an appointment; or of going on a date without asking a woman out before the day and time in question.

Also, if you had bothered to read the FAQ and the Official Rules thoroughly, you would know that the Preliminary Test and the Final (or Formal) Test use the exact same protocol: http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#5.2

Actually, there have been quite some Preliminary Tests. No successful one, though.

 

[Czarcasm]

PeachCrusader, you've sent in the application but have yet to actually get permission from Mrs. Alvaran and/or her "spirit"?


*sigh*

 

[yairhol]

I don't understand why this has taken so much time without even getting the permission of Mrs. Alvaran.

Let's take another example: Say the JREF was a foundation insisting that no person can read. I apply for the test and say I can read and I'll prove it. The protocol would be: Put me anywhere, anyday, indoor, outdoor, on my head or sitting down....as long as there is sufficient light in wherever I am that is all I require (and a book of course). Why so many testies are taking forever in their protocols is beyond me if they truly believe that they have that ability which they claim they have.

If Mrs. alvaran is not a sham then what does it matter how many boxes there are, where the test will be, etc. Anywhere, anytime is good enough to win a million bucks.

Regards,
Yair

 

[Loss Leader]

This festival is the living proof that it did happen.

Once again, PC, you make the mistake of thinking that something's mere existence is proof of how it came to be. Just because this woman may read numbers in a box is not proof that Jesus told her the numbers and just because Jews celebrate Passover is not proof that the ten plagues were real.

Passover, like many holidays, coresponds very closely to the agrerian calender. It marks the beginning of the planting season. Even pagan civilizations celebrated Passover in some form. In fact, we know they did. Easter, which occurs at roughly the same time as Passover, is overloaded with the symbols and practices of the pagan tribes who adopted Christianity. All of those rabbits and eggs are pagan symbols of spring fertility. Just as Christians appropriated a pagan holiday to mark the death of their buddy, God, Jews probably appropriated a pagan holiday to mark their exodus from Egypt.

In all cases, all that it proves is that the holiday exists. It is no proof whatsoever of why.

 

[Jackalgirl]

You are really methodical in your ways, Jackalgirl. And you go into details. They are needed for the protocol to establish that the tests are objective and verifiable and without the hocus focus of a magician.

Thank you -- I do try to be precise, because in the long run, it will help you with the JREF process, and I want to do that. Your restatement is quite correct.

I understand that the preliminary test will not be held during my ten-day stay in the Philippines this April. Details of how the tests will be conducted are still to be established with JREF. But basically, it will be as stated in the cover letter of the application.

Perhaps not. Remember, the protocol has to be agreeable to both you and JREF. That's why that part of the process -- that happens right after the application is received and accepted -- is often called "protocol negotiation". It usually involves the clamaint discussing the actual steps of the protocol via a series of email exchanges. It can take a while.

Please do not make the mistake of Mr. Gerald Epling, who thought that the JREF accepting the application meant that they had accepted the protocol he'd written in the application, as-is, without any motification, because they had accepted the application. JREF accepting the application simply means that they consider your claim testable and want to continue with them. After the protocol negotiation, when you and JREF have settled on a "peanut-butter-and-jelly" set of instructions, they will sign the application and return it to you (if I'm reading the Application correctly). That is what signals acceptance of the protocol and what is required for the next step (the preliminary).

I am willing to travel to the Philippines during the preliminary test and the formal test at my own expense.

I am very glad to hear this, because it shows that you understand the "expenses" rule (that is, that all expenses are borne by the applicant, not by JREF). Many applicants can't seem to understand this point.

PC, would you please post the protocol, as you wrote it in your application? We might be able to foresee some of the objections JREF might have, or clarifications they might want (if applicable), and thereby help you get a response off to Jeff in a speedy and efficient fashion.

Also, and I'm sorry if you already answered this but it's not clear to me yet -- have you actually spoken with Ms. Alvaran about the Challenge and about her part in it as your assistant? Does she agree?

 

[Jackalgirl]

Oh, by the way, PC --

If you actually do a sample test (i.e., you go to the Phillipines and get the five numbers that I am still holding from Ms. Alvaran/the spirit/whatever the mechanism), this will bode extremely well in the eyes of JREF. One of their specific suggestions is that applicants conduct these kinds of tests before applying. I realize that you have already applied, but successfully passing my test will really raise your "chops", as it were, in the eyes of a lot of people around here. So are you still willing to ask her to provide you with my five numbers? The envelope is still on my tchotcke stand, and Loss Leader still has them, so they're still valid for an attempt.