Zionism.

[Davo]

Brings about the Question

Was Jesus a Christian or a jew?Or both. Were jesus`s followers Christian or Jewish , or both.

Most, but not all jews (correct me if I am wrong) believe that they are Gods chosen people, according to the Old Testament. Believing themselves Gods chosen people could/would lead to a superiority complex.Is this a form of racism ?

Racism-websters dictionary defination

"a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race "

 

[steverino]

Brings about the Question

Was Jesus a Christian or a jew?Or both. Were jesus`s followers Christian or Jewish , or both.

Most, but not all jews (correct me if I am wrong) believe that they are Gods chosen people, according to the Old Testament. Believing themselves Gods chosen people could/would lead to a superiority complex.Is this a form of racism ?

Racism-websters dictionary defination

"a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race "

Yes. Jesus was a Jew, and, I think, a Christian, too. But Loss Leader might characterize him as being on the fringe.

And yes, we think we are superior to non-Jews, but only because we feel inferior. We are very insecure as a group, and forever judged negatively. Are you writing all this down?

 

[Davo]

Appreciate the honesty of your response.

Still can`t get to grips with the superiority/inferiority thing.

By the way I`m all for people retaining their culture whatever it may be, but the race thing is a complicated issue

 

[firecoins]

Jesus was a Jew. There was no such thing as a Christian. Chrisitanity came after Jesus' death, his "2nd death" that is. The whole idea of the Messiah is a Jewish one. He considered himself King of the Jews. He called himself a Rabbi. His 12 students and first followers were Jewish. They felt he was the Jewsih Mesiah. The last supper was a Passover Sedar.

Christianity came years after his death as the apostles started converting people and his following grew.

 

[steverino]

Jesus was a Jew. There was no such thing as a Christian. Chrisitanity came after Jesus' death, his "2nd death" that is. The whole idea of the Messiah is a Jewish one. He considered himself King of the Jews. He called himself a Rabbi. His 12 students and first followers were Jewish. They felt he was the Jewsih Mesiah. The last supper was a Passover Sedar.

Christianity came years after his death as the apostles started converting people and his following grew.

OK. So, with all this in mind, Firecoins, is someone who is born a Jew still a Jew if, as an adult, something pings in his brain, and he says, "Oh. I get it. Jesus is the son of God." ?

 

[Gurdur]

...And yes, we think we are superior to [....], but only because we feel inferior. We are very insecure as a group, and forever judged negatively. Are you writing all this down?

You have this attribute in common with many:
atheists
skeptics
Americans
American Protestant Christians
among others.

Oy vey, vas mocht en Mensh en Mensch?

 

[Cleon]

Oy vey, vas mocht en Mensh en Mensch?

Dos putz, ich kler.

 

[Loss Leader]

Was Jesus a Christian or a jew?Or both. Were jesus`s followers Christian or Jewish , or both.

Well, you need to understand the state of Judaism at the time. It was a pretty dark period in history (for everyone who wasn't Roman). The Jews had been conquered and were no longer a sovereign nation. Many people believed that it was literally the end times. "Prophets" stood preaching on every streetcorner. Some of them had followings, some of them didn't. Fringe groups such as the practitioners of Kabbalah and the Masada loons were common.

Was Jesus a Jew? He thought so. Even when he proclaimed himself the son of God, he apparantly thought this was in keeping with the best traditions of his religion. And so did his followers. When did they stop being Jews? I don't think there's an answer. First christians were a sect of Judaism, then a cult, then a religion. Certainly by 300 AD when the conversion of pagans was the main source of new christians, they were no longer in any way Jewish. Before 100 AD, I doubt anyone knows.

Most, but not all jews (correct me if I am wrong) believe that they are Gods chosen people, according to the Old Testament. Believing themselves Gods chosen people could/would lead to a superiority complex.Is this a form of racism ?

Oh, you couldn't be more wrong and I'll explain why. Jews are God's chosen people, true. But what is it we are chosen to do? Are we chosen to have special favor in his eyes? Nope. Are we chosen to live eternally while all others are damned to hell? Not a bit. Are we chosen to rule over all of the earth? Hardly. The only thing we are chosen to do is receive God's laws.

We are chosen to follow extra commandments tha nobody else has to. We are chosen to be restricted in what we eat when no one else is. We are chosen to study a long, inscrutable text when the rest of the world had no such written religious books (at the time).

We are not superior. We are not inferior. We are just members of a club with lots and lots of rules. And here's the great thing - anybody who wants to can join and nothing bad happens to anyone who doesn't want to.

Is this true of racists? Do white supremecists have such an open-door policy? Were the Hutus content to just leave the Tutsis the hell alone? Hardly.

So, in the definition of "chosen people" lies your answer.

 

[Davo]

Well, you need to understand the state of Judaism at the time. It was a pretty dark period in history (for everyone who wasn't Roman). The Jews had been conquered and were no longer a sovereign nation. Many people believed that it was literally the end times. "Prophets" stood preaching on every streetcorner. Some of them had followings, some of them didn't. Fringe groups such as the practitioners of Kabbalah and the Masada loons were common.

Was Jesus a Jew? He thought so. Even when he proclaimed himself the son of God, he apparantly thought this was in keeping with the best traditions of his religion. And so did his followers. When did they stop being Jews? I don't think there's an answer. First christians were a sect of Judaism, then a cult, then a religion. Certainly by 300 AD when the conversion of pagans was the main source of new christians, they were no longer in any way Jewish. Before 100 AD, I doubt anyone knows.

I view it the same way historically


Oh, you couldn't be more wrong and I'll explain why. Jews are God's chosen people, true. But what is it we are chosen to do? Are we chosen to have special favor in his eyes? Nope. Are we chosen to live eternally while all others are damned to hell? Not a bit. Are we chosen to rule over all of the earth? Hardly. The only thing we are chosen to do is receive God's laws.

Thanks for correcting me. Being Agnostic I can`t say that jews ARE Gods chosen people, but I respect your belief in the Old Testament

We are chosen to follow extra commandments tha nobody else has to. We are chosen to be restricted in what we eat when no one else is. We are chosen to study a long, inscrutable text when the rest of the world had no such written religious books (at the time).

We are not superior. We are not inferior. We are just members of a club with lots and lots of rules. And here's the great thing - anybody who wants to can join and nothing bad happens to anyone who doesn't want to.

Is this true of racists? Do white supremecists have such an open-door policy? Were the Hutus content to just leave the Tutsis the hell alone? Hardly.

If there is any hint of racism I wouldn`t put it into the same ball park as supremacists/hutus. Racism is a belief and doesn`t necessitate any actions on that belief.

 

[Loss Leader]

If there is any hint of racism I wouldn`t put it into the same ball park as supremacists/hutus. Racism is a belief and doesn`t necessitate any actions on that belief.

Well then I'll confine myself to your definition previously supplied.

"a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race "

As to inherent superiority, I would say that Jews do not generally believe this. I have previously explained why I think so.

As to a belief in race determining human capacities, maybe there was a time when the whole world believed it. I know of no American Jew who believes there is any important genetic difference between Jews and non-Jews. maybe somewhere in the world such beliefs persist but not in the suburbs of New York.

 

[steverino]

...We are chosen to follow extra commandments tha nobody else has to. We are chosen to be restricted in what we eat when no one else is. We are chosen to study a long, inscrutable text when the rest of the world had no such written religious books (at the time)... We are just members of a club with lots and lots of rules.

I am a Jew and therefore a member of the club, but follow none of the above dogma.

 

[steverino]

I know of no American Jew who believes there is any important genetic difference between Jews and non-Jews. maybe somewhere in the world such beliefs persist but not in the suburbs of New York.

You know one now. Jews have important genetic differences to non-Jews. I offer this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay-Sachs_disease

For example, a four base pair insertion in exon 11 (1278insTATC) results in an altered reading frame for the HEXA gene. This mutation is the most prevalent mutation in the Ashkenazi Jewish population, and leads to the infantile form of Tay-Sachs disease.[6] The same mutation occurs in the Cajun population of southern Louisiana, an American ethnic group that has been isolated for several hundred years because of linguistic differences. Researchers have speculated that it may have entered this population because a Jewish merchant family assimilated into Cajun society.

 

[David Swidler]

You know one now. Jews have important genetic differences to non-Jews. I offer this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay-Sachs_disease

For example, a four base pair insertion in exon 11 (1278insTATC) results in an altered reading frame for the HEXA gene. This mutation is the most prevalent mutation in the Ashkenazi Jewish population, and leads to the infantile form of Tay-Sachs disease.[6] The same mutation occurs in the Cajun population of southern Louisiana, an American ethnic group that has been isolated for several hundred years because of linguistic differences. Researchers have speculated that it may have entered this population because a Jewish merchant family assimilated into Cajun society.

This is taking the thread even farther off its original track, but thanks to genetic screening, Tay-Sachs has been all but eliminated from the Jewish population. There are still carriers, but the testing - which has become de rigeur for Ashkenazi Jewish couples seeking to bear children in the US and Israel - prevents two carriers from unwittingly bringing a Tay-Sachs baby into he world.

 

[steverino]

This is taking the thread even farther off its original track, but thanks to genetic screening, Tay-Sachs has been all but eliminated from the Jewish population. There are still carriers, but the testing - which has become de rigeur for Ashkenazi Jewish couples seeking to bear children in the US and Israel - prevents two carriers from unwittingly bringing a Tay-Sachs baby into he world.

That is wonderful news, but you see my point on the Jewish genes thinggy.

 

[Darat]

You know one now. Jews have important genetic differences to non-Jews. I offer this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay-Sachs_disease

For example, a four base pair insertion in exon 11 (1278insTATC) results in an altered reading frame for the HEXA gene. This mutation is the most prevalent mutation in the Ashkenazi Jewish population, and leads to the infantile form of Tay-Sachs disease.[6] The same mutation occurs in the Cajun population of southern Louisiana, an American ethnic group that has been isolated for several hundred years because of linguistic differences. Researchers have speculated that it may have entered this population because a Jewish merchant family assimilated into Cajun society.

So they have important differences BUT those important differences are also in some other population groups? Your article seems to contradict your claim.

 

[Loss Leader]

You know one now. Jews have important genetic differences to non-Jews. I offer this link.

By "important," I meant genetic differences that "produce an inherent superiority" as was in the supplied definition. There is no doubt that there is some small genetic difference in any isolated demographic, but none that confers a superiority of intelligence, drive, strength or what-have-you.

 

[Twilek]

By whom, the Vatican?

Well, despite having no official leader, do have widespread acknowledgment of ideas and standards about certain issues. As far as every informative book I've read about Jews and Judaism is concerned, this is one of them. Do you know of an observance of Judaism I may be unaware of where this is not the case?

And so what? They are still Jews. "Disgusting," according to Loss Leader, but Jews none the less.

Of course they are, that was my point. Them being Jews, that is, not "disgusting".

 

[Darth Rotor]

By "important," I meant genetic differences that "produce an inherent superiority" as was in the supplied definition. There is no doubt that there is some small genetic difference in any isolated demographic, but none that confers a superiority of intelligence, drive, strength or what-have-you.

Thanks for the correction on the "Prophet" versus "Rabbi" deal regarding Jesus and Jews.

And to all, thanks for the interesting exposition subsequent to that.

DR

 

[Cleon]

That there are genetic differences between Jews and non-Jews is old news, even beyond Tay-Sachs*. Not only are there markers for Jewish ancestry, but also for Ashkenazim (Central and Eastern European Jews), Separdim (Jews from the Iberian peninsula, mainly Spain), Mizrahim (Arab Jews), all sorts of stuff.

One other thing that there are DNA signatures for, and I found this really cool, is lineages within Judaism. For example, "Levis" are descendants of the Levi tribe in Palestine, and Cohenim are descendants of the priest caste. (This is why you see so many Jewish names involving "Levi" or "Cohen.") This lineage is passed from father to son, and there are certain roles in schul (particularly during Torah readings) that are filled specifically by a Cohen or Levi.

My Dad raised me as a Cohen, as his dad raised him. When we did a DNA profile, it was kinda cool to see the evidence that we've managed to keep this tradition going back several thousand years.


* For some reason, I always think of it as "Taylor-Sachs," which sounds like a department store.

 

[marksman]

A couple of points

1. Nobody was preaching Kaballah 2,000 years ago. At best, it was being preached in the 12th century CE and didn't really pick up steam until the 15th century. Even dedicated Kaballists who think Adam in the Garden practiced Kaballah acknowledge that it was all but forgotten until
2. When deciding who is a Jew, as is pretty clear form the discussion to date, the follow up question is "according to whom"?
3. According to Orthodox tradition, anybody born of a Jewish mother or who converts via Orthodox conversion rites is Jewish. They can get baptized, accept Jesus as their personal savior, pray to Mecca six times a day, go on Hajj, raise money for the Hare Krishna, get their engrams cleaned by Tom Cruise, or simply declare themselves atheist. They're still Jews. In Orthodox Judaism there is no mechanism to stop being a Jew.
4. According to Reform Judaism, someone is Jewish if either parent is Jewish and the child is raised Jewish (which is itself an ambiguous requirement) or if they convert under Reform, Conservative or Orthodox standards. Under Reform Judaism, you stop being a Jew if you announce you are not a Jew or if you weren't raised Jewish (and you never converted to Judaism).
5. There is an informal belief in "cultural" Jews. Basically, the only requirement for being Jewish is if you are raised in a Jewish household (and what that might mean is anyone's guess).
6. Obviously, for purposes of the Law of Return, Israel has its own standards of eligibility
7. FInally, there have been non-Jews who have tried to define Jews as well. The Nazis needed some measurement for determining which kids went to work camps and which went to Hitler Youth camps.

There is no easy answer to the question. Personally, I use the Orthodox answer as I believe it to the most widely accepted, and frankly, as a history buff, I have an affinity for traditional definitions.