Questions for Jesus-Freak

edge said:
We weren't sinful to begin with and the catch 22 is gone, how do you keep missing this fact?
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if we chose sin by eating the apple we were capable of sin and therefore we were created sinful. that an imputus was needed to begin the process of sin doesn't mean that it wasn't there to begin with. a chemical reaction doesn't start until both chemical are brought into contact with one another; however, the capcity for the reaction is already there.
 
RationalReverend said:
Or maybe, just maybe you aren't playing with a full deck.
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There's that pesky logic again. Sorry you are having a difficult time with this RR. Your statement is Ad hominem.

Whether I am or am not playing with a full deck has no bearing on the argument.

Feel free to read through the very thread you are posting in and maybe you will understand. She made a similar statement about myself and my religion, I did it back to prove a point.
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That would be fine if you didn't persist in the absurd and bigoted claim.

...and in this case it certainly is my opinion that her Mormon heritage has led to bitterness.
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This is a bigoted remark. One without any foundation.

Furthermore, I never said "All former Mormons are bitter."
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Entirely irrelevant. You are making claims about Beleth that are without foundation.

You have irrationally drawn my statement into that, when that is not what I said at all. Judging from your title "Mormon Atheist" you used to be one too, and somehow think my comment towards Beleth includes you. It doesn't, so get over it.
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I never for one moment thought it did include me. That's not the point.
 
RandFan said:
There's that pesky logic again. Sorry you are having a difficult time with this RR. Your statement is Ad hominem.
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I was not insulting your intelligence, I was referring to you not having the back story.

Honestly, we could do this 50 times back and forth and you would still be bitching about something or other. Feel free to label me however you want.
 
RR, I'm curious about your login ID - are you an actual minister, or did you choose that ID for other reasons?
If you are a minister, if you want to, you could tell us what your denomination is, what your background is, whether you currently are connected with a church, any other info that you think might be appropriate.
Also if you want to, you could tell us how you stasnd on evolution and vaious versions of creationism.

(sorry if you've already answered these questions somewhere and I missed it.)
 
edge said:
You can't blame god for our mistake, our mistake was to listen to some one else and lesser god, an angel who fell into sin and made sin possible.
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did god create all the universe and everything in it or not?? come on now... is he omnipotent or not?? is he capable of making the universe exactly what he wants it to be or not?? if he is and he did then the "fall" of man, and the "fall" of an angel had to have been preplanned!!! to say otherwise is to say god failed.

edge said:
I can see if a person doesn't want to follow the word that's cool but to sway others through reasoning that may be false, when there’s other explanations, that is still going to be your problem in the end.
No one is putting boundaries on science but science is putting boundaries on God and that's not right.
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oh please. if you read most of the biblical threads they eventually come down to the 6 day/6,000 year/millions of years old debate. claiming that religion doesn't put boundries on science is as silly. and claiming that you can't attempt to sway someone through science cause it may be wrong but you can sway through god cause he's obviously true is mindnumbing logic.

edge said:
Said and done so what's the problem?
Move on please it’s a good thing.
I have seen my father do this for me and I do it for my child and she will do it for her child and that's why we are family.
This is why we rely on each other and God.
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but i didn't create the problem that i'm blaming my children for then making them worship me because i saved them from themselves!
 
flume said:
RR, I'm curious about your login ID - are you an actual minister, or did you choose that ID for other reasons?
If you are a minister, if you want to, you could tell us what your denomination is, what your background is, whether you currently are connected with a church, any other info that you think might be appropriate.
Also if you want to, you could tell us how you stasnd on evolution and vaious versions of creationism.

(sorry if you've already answered these questions somewhere and I missed it.)
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I would, but then there would be an onslaught of postings debating every single point. I'll just say that I am a college student who is a lay minister on the side. I study the Bible and Theology in college.
 
As a somewhat impartial observer who read the previous thread to which RR refers I hope I won't worsen the situation by interjecting.....

Maybe both sides should take a step back. From RR's perspective, it is a little disconcerting to be invited into a hornet's nest, and I can't think of any other way of referring to a biblical discussion with Dr. X. From Beleth's perspective, she was only trying to introduce you to someone with whom you would have had a very entertaining discussion (however it ended); she has done it before because Dr. X will not come over here, I gather, because of some past experiences (in fact, I have personally seen Beleth invite Dr. X to this site to discuss matters with someone posting here). Calling Dr. X a jerk (however correct the assessment may be, and I do not generally agree with it) makes you look like you are rationalizing an exit for which you could have said simply, "I respectfully decline." I don't think anyone need take offense or continue to bring up the past. And I mean that for all sides. Including me.

Frankly I agree with Beleth that you and Dr. X in discussion would be interesting and entertaining. Probably more entertaining for us, but everyone can be selfish at times. That previous statement, by the way, is a sign of respect.

I used to go to the Skeptic site under a previous name (Akhmet) and joined someone else in disparaging this site before I actually experienced it in any depth. Beleth jumped on me about that. She was right. I like this place very much and many of the people with whom I have interacted.

Shake hands?
 
Beleth said:
Been there, done that. He offered his hand; I extended mine to shake his, and he spat in it.

I only fall for that once.
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I seem to remember your offer of truce to contain backhanded remarks. But regardless, I do not truly have any problem with you whatsoever. If you want our jockeying and back and forth to end, just say the word. Reconciliation is always an option for me.

*extends hand*

Do as you see fit.
 
edge
Well for me God has been proven.
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You start off strong with a lie. (If god were proven you would have evidence, not necessarily what you call evidence, but actual evidence.

Dowsing too
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Ignoring all dowsing comments, carry to other thread.

but this is my point, he decided that we would be made as we are, sinful, and he also decided that he wouldn't tolerate the sinful in his presence. if that's not a catch 22 i don't know what is.
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We weren't sinful to begin with and the catch 22 is gone, how do you keep missing this fact?
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If the sin is gone then Jesus is irrelevant now. Sorry, Adam and Eve were created pure but sinned, everyone else was cursed by god. God made Adam and Eve, god being omnipotent created them so that they would have no choice but to sin. Again, there was a design flaw in which case the fall is god’s fault and god is not omnipotent. Or, god did not introduce a design flaw in which case they did exactly as intended, in which case god is a sick evil bastard.

You can't blame god for our mistake, our mistake was to listen to some one else and lesser god, an angel who fell into sin and made sin possible.
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Wrong again. Until Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge they could not know that listening to some one besides god was wrong. The knowledge of that did not exist.

The only thing that I have seen that brings these people back to reality is church based rehabs, nothing else works.
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Ignorance. Link to some studies. (All the ones I know of, church based have the same chance of working as going cold turkey.)

As long as science says onward and upward I don't have a problem but when it looks back and says there is no god because that's what you are doing, then I got a problem and not all people of science do that.
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You are declaring your ignorance is greater than all the accumulated knowledge of humanity for the past 300+ years. Arrogant thy name is edge.

I can see if a person doesn't want to follow the word that's cool but to sway others through reasoning that may be false, when there’s other explanations, that is still going to be your problem in the end.
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If the reasoning is false, then point out where. Your explanations are about as reliable as your dowsing when properly controlled.

No one is putting boundaries on science but science is putting boundaries on God and that's not right.
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Actually, you in declaring the musings of bronze age tribesmen to be sacrosanct have placed the boundary on god. The bible, as has been pointed out numerous times, has a variety of contradictions, both internal and external. Think about it edge, in declaring the bible untouchable you have declared human advancement worthless. If you want to go live in a mud hut and follow sheep and goats around all day and fear the sun falling into the ocean, be my guest, but don’t sit in front of a computer and declare science wrong when, with each message you post you prove science correct again and again.

Do you think that the flesh they found in T rex is 70 million years old?
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Apparently you didn’t even read the linked article.

Ossai
 
So how does The Fall fit in with evolution? The fall came after the seven days of creation. Maybe evolution was just the transmat device for transition from Eden to the harsh fallen world. Maybe the transition from Eden to the earth is what took billions of years.
 
Cosmo said:
Your first sentence is plainly incorrect, hence I can safely ignore the rest of your post.
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I've already him asked which books he read that gave him such a warped understanding of evolution (so I can tell people not to bother with them).

He still hasn't done so, and instead said he mis-wrote. I wonder if he mis-wrote again?
 
Cosmo said:
Your first sentence is plainly incorrect, hence I can safely ignore the rest of your post.
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:D

It reminds me of a Steven Colbert interview.

"If you are so right, why won't you admit that you are wrong?"
 
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